250 replies to this topic

[Nemo1965]

https://formula1news...ppen-dominance/

 

Dear Forum,

 

For a Dutch publication I am preparing to write an article about the - in my eyes - amazingly quick worries about the domination of Red Bull. Yes, in the past there were complaints about Schumacher steamrolling the competition, Mercedes has gotten also some flak for their flattening F1… but in my recollection it never was thus after only just a year (I take Spa ’22 as the beginning of Max’s reign of terror). Or, if you want: after one race in the 2023 season!

 

Certainly it must be the first time in the combination of social media and F1 that F1-fans - partisan or not - call for handicapping Red Bull or giving the helping hand to the competition. Yes, the above posted link is perhaps an extreme example. But in my mind the worry about competition was always like: First year admiration, second year an expression of hope for more competition, the third year first calls of despair and outright criticism and then only calls for levelling the playing field. And not immediate despair. 

 

Or… do I remember those years of dominance of Lotus/Williams/Ferrari/Mercedes not accurately?

 

I am primarily interested in your recollections about those years, because though I started following F1 since I was a wee kid, I almost never had discussions with friends about F1 before the Max Verstappen-years ( I knew only one F1-fan: me), did not read discussions online in the Schumacher-years and did not pay enough attention perhaps in the Mercedes-years.

 

So… what are your memories? When you were a Ferrari and Schumacher-fan, did the lack of competition bother you? If so, after how many wins and championships? If you are a Hamilton-fan, was there a moment that even you thought: this is getting out of hand? Or did you never If you followed F1 in the 70’s, what was your emotion when for about half a season, the Lotus 79 was obliterating the field?

 

Apart from your recollections, I am also curious about discussions and conversations you had with friends in the pub, on Fora like these or at work. I want to paint a fair picture how domination was perceived in the past and how it is perceived now. I think we must agree it is certainly differently received by a large number of fans than in the past!

Edited by Nemo1965, 09 March 2023 - 13:04.

[PayasYouRace]

Having only watched since 1996 I can only give my opinion on the domination seen since then. The Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes domination periods since that time have all been tedious, getting worse with each passing year. 2004, 2013 and 2019 being the absolute worst in each period.

As a note 2020 as slightly more interesting because of the strange season, but still far too easy for Lewis in the end.

[Nemo1965]

Having only watched since 1996 I can only give my opinion on the domination seen since then. The Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes domination periods since that time have all been tedious, getting worse with each passing year. 2004, 2013 and 2019 being the absolute worst in each period.

As a note 2020 as slightly more interesting because of the strange season, but still far too easy for Lewis in the end.

I have entertained the thought (perhaps you meant that also?) that the current quick reaction is an accumulation of annoyance that started with the Schumacher-years, tension that was relieved with the emergence of Alonso, the surprise of Hamilton, the shock of Button... and then came Red Bull, bam-bam-bam-bam, then Mercedes, bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-bam (did I count right?) and now oh dear, Red Bull is starting a new sequence. In other words: the memory is just too damn fresh.

Edited by Nemo1965, 09 March 2023 - 14:59.

[jacdaniel]

I think Max and Red Bull are the unfortunate victims of too many spells of domination over the last 2 decades or so.

Nobody really wants to see domination again.

It doesn't help that Max, Horner and Marko are the super villains of F1.

[as65p]

Schumacher / Ferrari domination was the most terrible for me. Especially those teaser seasons when Montoya would start from pole every other race only to drop like a stone against the Bridgestone shot Ferrari in the races, or 2003 where it so nearly happened for either Kimi or Montoya.

 

And then 2005/06 happened and I feared for even worse Alonso domination years coming up...

[Nemo1965]

I think Max and Red Bull are the unfortunate victims of too many spells of domination over the last 2 decades or so.

Nobody really wants to see domination again.

It doesn't help that Max, Horner and Marko are the super villains of F1.

 

Really? In the article I am writing, I was planning to discard the idea that this 'premature worry' is something personal about Red Bull/Max/Horner. What you write, seems to indicate something you think it is...

[William Hunt]

Good question, I'll think about it but I can tell you this: I've always hated any kind of domination, whether it was Mansell-Williams in '92, Prost-Williams '93, Prost-Senna-McLaren '88-'89, Schumacher-Ferrari era, Red Bull Vettel era, Mercedes-Hamilton era or Verstappen-Red Bull now.

It's always bad to have a dominating team or dominating driver of both. It makes things predictable and very very boring. I don't get how people can enjoy domination if it lasts quite long. I was a huge Riccardo Patrese fan back in the '80s-'90s but I would not have enjoyed him dominating. You actually get more joy if your favourite takes a win when he doesn't win that much compared to one who wins all the time, victory tastes feels even more sweeter then. I really don't get how fans can be happy with one driver always winning, even if they support  that driver. It's like supporting for a soccer team that wins almost every match and that wins the title every year.

The big diffference post 2000 is that before 2000 we never had long domination. Usually it was one or two years of domination and then it was over. These days the pecking order of the top teams just doesn't change, it stays the same for 10 years or more. Teams dominate much much longer these days too. If domination lasts 1 or 2 seasons that's not such a big problem as when it continues to do so during a full decade.

Edited by William Hunt, 09 March 2023 - 13:23.

[as65p]

I think Max and Red Bull are the unfortunate victims of too many spells of domination over the last 2 decades or so.

Nobody really wants to see domination again.

It doesn't help that Max, Horner and Marko are the super villains of F1.

Well, it should help, really. There's no meaning in destroying the Borg if they hadn't been doing so much terrible stuff before.

[PayasYouRace]

I have entertained the thought (perhaps you meant that also?) that the current quick reaction is an accumulation of annoyance that started with the Schumacher-years, tension that was releaved with the emergence of Alonso, the surprise of Hamilton, the shock of Button... and then came Red Bull, bam-bam-bam-bam, then Mercedes, bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-bam (did I count right?) and now oh dear, Red Bull is starting a new sequence. In other words: the memory is just too damn fresh.

It probably helps that, for those of a certain age, they didn’t experience any true domination for years in F1. Nobody could even defend a title between 1960 and 1986. We had one lovely competitive period between Ferrari and Red Bull, but it was over far too quickly.

[Henri Greuter]

I've send you a PM

[as65p]

I didn't.

[Risil]

I remember it being a tremendous relief in 2003 and 2005 that a year of Ferrari steamrolling the competition wasn't going to be followed by another year of the same. In retrospect it's pretty obvious that it took some extraordinary FIA interventions and last-minute rule changes to prevent Ferrari and Bridgestone from continuing to dominate, but Max Mosley was good enough at misdirection that I don't think I really cared about that at the time. But generally at that time, F1 was something me and my dad and my brothers would watch together on a Sunday and while we would certainly moan about unfairness or dull competition it didn't occur to me not to watch it.

 

For me, Mercedes' dominance in 2014-16 was by far the most difficult or despairy period to try and enjoy F1. The Brackley team was so far ahead and the rivalry between Hamilton and Rosberg brought out the unattractive sides of both drivers, as rivalries within the same team normally do (see Senna/Prost or Webber/Vettel). It became tempting to diminish or belittle the skill and achievements of both drivers because each only had the other to beat. I think something we do in forums as well is try and convince ourselves that there are deeper structural issues behind one team having all the success. For instance, the prohibitive cost of engine development in the hybrid era, the cost cap, unequal distribution of resources meaning only three teams are capable of running at the front. We are very literate and committed to understanding the sport but as with most internet communities can fall prey to groupthink or seeing hidden motives and forces in the chaos. In any case, this provides endless analytical fodder (and excuses) but also makes following the sport seem a bit pointless.

 

Anyway really interesting idea for a thread Nemo, looking forward to seeing what comes out of this discussion.

[Jops14]

2004 and 02 were awful, 02 coming off a year for an easy schumacher win, then 03 teased you, just for 04 to be dreadful.

Vettel and red bull was ok at first, fortunate 10 title, 11 was tough to endure, and 12 was just soul destroying, again followed by 13 where it almost could be good, and then was a Vettel win from pole, so so boring

14-16 was even tougher, I like Hamilton but off the back of the Red Bull domination straight into a period where 1 team had such a baked in advantage. Both of those i was wuickly at the point where I didn’t care if i missed a race

I dont find this so bad, but its not “early into the period”, lst season was similar to the 13 nightmare, so to come into a new season where they seem even further out of reach.

I think its more to do with the fact this is off the back of 13 years of periods where largely 1 team wins it…

Max is also very unlikeable, but i find a lot of the great young talents like that, so much focus in reaching the top they forgot to develop a personality along the way, Hamilton was like that until he left McLaren

[Sterzo]

There are so many different factors to enjoying racing, and unpredictability at the front is only one of them. Part of the pleasure is being impressed by massive talent; part of it is in how different technical solutions stack up against each other. Both of those tend towards producing domination.

 

I don't recall much gnashing of teeth or rending of garments amongst the enthusiasts I've known over the years, not in any period.

 

People who are dissatisfied are likely to be more vocal. Social media gives voice to people who maybe nobody would have listened to when they were sounding off in the pub. Who knows if perceptions have changed? More and more people are taking an interest in F1; more and more are complaining about every aspect of it. C'est la vie.

[messy]

Williams and McLaren dominance in the mid 1990s was fine because it didn't last. The only time it continued all season was maybe 1996 and it was clear then that Schumacher and Ferrari were on their way upwards while in the 98/99/00 seasons where McLaren started well ahead, Ferrari pegged them back and made a fight of it each time. Things got a bit more troubling when Ferrari hit their peak stride, because 2002 and 2004 were pretty frustrating. But that again was two seasons and either side and in the middle of those it was at least really competitive, so that was ok. I found it frustrating and off-putting through the really dark days in 2002 where you knew that even if Williams got pole, they stood no chance the following day. Seeing Schumacher, who I'd grown up idolising for his blood and guts effort and car control chasing the superior Williams/McLarens, p*ssing round gifting Barrichello wins in the second half of 02/04 was depressing. But at least that level of dominance ended before it got really awful. Ditto for Red Bull really - 2011 and 2013 were tough, but the years around them were good.

Mercedes 2014-20 was easily the worst because it was just groundhog day every year. Sometimes (17-18) it was almost competitive, but only till the summer break because not only were Mercedes the best at building a fast car out of the box, they were by far the best at developing it too so if it started the season with a rival uncomfortably close, they'd have them covered in the end. Then they don't make that mistake again and the following year make sure they're well ahead out of the box again. It was never ending. Hamilton, Rosberg, Bottas, but mainly Hamilton. One season great, it was about time he got another title. Two, ok, three, hang on this is getting dull now, four, five, six, seven, is this ever going to end.

I really admire Lewis Hamilton, don't get me wrong. But that Merc domination era went on far, FAR too long. Seeing one driver clean up every single year is no fun however much you respect that driver. See also Verstappen 23, in all probability.

Edited by messy, 09 March 2023 - 13:47.

[Massa]

The F2002 made me stop watching F1 race from 2002 to 2005. And I'm a Ferrari fan, but Ferrari domination was too much for me, especially because races was bad, Ferrari was just waiting 3-4 laps before pit stop, then they push and after the pit stop the race was done.

I was just checking the result to see if Schumacher have won, and was watching some race like Monaco 2003.

[LolaB0860]

https://formula1news...ppen-dominance/

*Barfs violently*

Maybe these guys should go and watch modern WEC then

Edited by LolaB0860, 09 March 2023 - 13:46.

[jacdaniel]

Really? In the article I am writing, I was planning to discard the idea that this 'premature worry' is something personal about Red Bull/Max/Horner. What you write, seems to indicate something you think it is...

I really don't want to derail your thread but I don't think it's a secret that Max is the villain of F1.

Domination is not something that most people want to see. But even more so when the person dominating is Max/Red Bull.

I don't think people would be quite so bothered if it was LeClerc or Lando or Russell dominating.

[djparky]

There have always been periods of one team domination- but there are some crucial differences- back in the 1970's, 80's and even 90's cars were less reliable- so there was a far greater risk of mechanical failures than there is now. Also those periods tended to only last a year or two- then either the rules would change or more of the other teams would catch up

Back in 1986 or 1988 the Williams or McLarens could and sometimes did lap the entire field- but it wasnt a certainty.

What's happened in the last 15 years or so reliability has greatly improved and once a competitive advantage is locked in and tends to remain in place for extended periods of time. Its not certain that RBR will dominate this year, give it 3 or 4 GP's and then will get a better picture

[Beri]

I got into F1 during the early 90s and my team of choice was the unbeatable Williams team back then. During those years there was only the written press and some other media outlets who objectively handed me the news on F1. I didnt have much interaction with anyone regarding Formula One. As it was a non sport back in those early 90s in the Netherlands. At least at my school no one was watching. This changed around 1993 when it became apparent that a young Dutch guy could join in 1995. He debuted in 1994 instead and things went off at school and at family reunions.

But the general consensus was that F1 was great. No moaning about Williams being dominant. And this continued right until the end of it. But during the Schumacher years there was one major change; the internet. Better said; various forums to vent one's opinion. It became a thing during the late 90s and that is where things went sour real quick. Since then, many people have been outspoken and tried to influence one another opinion by somewhat sheer propaganda. And this has evolved ever so more.

 

So summarizing; I do think that people were annoyed by any form of dominance even back in the Lotus years. But the only way to hand that opinion to the larger audience has only been in place for the better part of 25 years or so. And since then there have only been 3 dominant era's: Schumacher, Vettel, Mercedes (as Hamilton and Rosberg both dominated, it is not down to one driver). All of which were a increasingly more negatively judged. So people already fearing a dominant red Bull era, they voice their opinion now.

[Jarninho]

Interesting question. Domination in itself isn't a bad thing. Usain Bolt could fill a stadium for a sub 10 second run. The problem is in car racing it's hard to see the difficulty of it these days. The premise of the F1 that I loved was always: 300 km at 300 km/h - One mistake and you are out. That is gone for good.

 

I have been watching since the end of 91 so I started with the Williams domination. I didn't mind that as the cars where so advanced there was a lot to take in anyway. And Williams used to employ an new driver every year, so it wasn't just the same driver year in year out. Plus, in those days there was always lots of comic relief. Engines blowing spectacularly, amateur drivers spinning while being seconds off the pace. It makes you appreciate the best of the best and shows it's really hard to do it right.

 

The Schumacher domination felt deserved to me, because they had fought really hard for it at Ferrari and Schumacher was the benchmark driver to me. Yes, he won 5 in a row but in reality it was only 2 years that were truly dominant. 2003 featured 8 different race winners in 16 GP's for example. 2001 ended dominant but that was more due to Mika having terrible luck and David and McLaren fading. Renault returned, BMW was becoming very good. Honda and Ford present, so a lot of major manufacturers trying to win.

 

I didn't mind Vettel winning in dominant fashion in 2011. He was the one that got the handle on the Pirelli tires and behind him F1 felt spectacular. There was loads of passing and action throughout the field. 2010 to me was one of the worst seasons in history. Hardly any on-track action. It looks really good on paper, but watching a race live was incredibly boring. It took until 2013 for that to wear off a bit.

 

The Merc dominance was just wrong in my opinion because the engines couldn't be developed properly and there was no testing. There was no chance Ferrari or Red Bull would catch up. Throughout all the years before there was always the threat that others could catch up, like Ferrari did in 97/98, or Williams-BMW in the early 2000s (but they often blew up). And they didn't rotate their drivers, so you had Hamilton winning almost 50% of the races each year between 2014 and 2020. That would have been bearable if there had been comic relief but there wasn't much. Asphalt run-offs, super reliable cars. And if you watch the onboards you just see him turning the wheel and he hardly has to make any corrections. Compare that to the famous Senna in Monaco onboard. 

 

I did love 2012. 2021 was perhaps the best season I have seen. That was tense till the very last lap, with two drivers and two teams at the top of their game giving it their all in a season long battle. Red Bull is probably an even better team than Merc and Verstappen is on his way to cement his place in the history books as perhaps the most complete F1 driver ever. With no testing and a budget cap I don't see how anyone can overcome them until 2026. They got their engines sorted, Max is under contract. They seem to be well ahead of the rest in their understanding of underbody aero and you can't just bolt in a new engine or something to overcome that. That's a sad thought tbh.

[Cliff]

Really? In the article I am writing, I was planning to discard the idea that this 'premature worry' is something personal about Red Bull/Max/Horner. What you write, seems to indicate something you think it is...

 

I agree, We've just gone through the worst case of domination for 8 straight seasons with Mercedes. But nobody in the worldfeed (read British) media, made a big deal out of it. Now that It's a non Brit winning again, It's straight back to the constant whinging like when Vettel and Schumacher were dominating. 

 

He's barely had a dominant car for half a season so It's quite amusing.

 

The problem is that they keep changing the regulations, every time things start to even out they either change engine or aero regs.

[red stick]

I have entertained the thought (perhaps you meant that also?) that the current quick reaction is an accumulation of annoyance that started with the Schumacher-years, tension that was releaved with the emergence of Alonso, the surprise of Hamilton, the shock of Button... and then came Red Bull, bam-bam-bam-bam, then Mercedes, bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-bam (did I count right?) and now oh dear, Red Bull is starting a new sequence. In other words: the memory is just too damn fresh.

 I think there's a lot to this.  In the 80s with McLaren, at least the wins were spread among multiple drivers.  And Williams domination in the 90s was spread among Mansell, Prost, Hill, and Villeneuve.  Newey had built a better mousetrap, but it was not years of Mansell/Williams "boredom."  (In retrospect, Sir Frank's belief that his cars were the stars, and the drivers interchangeable, may have had some merit and spared us an even earlier version of the present "malaise").     I got bored during the years of Ferrari domination, and frequently did not watch whole races during the Red Bull I and Mercedes years--it was sufficient to see the start and first few laps, find something to do for awhile, and catch the end.  That this year looks to extend the age of a superior team against a field of minnows is not helping.   

 

Really? In the article I am writing, I was planning to discard the idea that this 'premature worry' is something personal about Red Bull/Max/Horner. What you write, seems to indicate something you think it is...

I don't think you can discount it.  I can't stand Max personally, though the talent is undeniable. 

[Astro]

With the current rules, there are not huge barriers to overcome. Red Bull did a much better job and they deserve to be on top, period. More importantly, I don't see any reasons why other teams cannot copy or improve on Red Bull design with relative ease, so I don't understand the early cries of frustration. Red Bull will have diminishing returns with every upgrade and, given the budget caps, most teams should be able to keep closing the gap. The truly difficult gap to close is going to be Verstappen, so if I were Mercedes I would be doing anything I can not to lose Hamilton.

[tourister46a]

I don't mind dominant periods as long as it is my driver doing the winning. Started watching F1 in 1998 when I knew that Schumacher was a 2 time champ, but was the underdog against the McLarens. I saw Ferrari as dominant only in 2002 and 2004, though in hindsight, 2001 was an easy WDC as well. I wanted MS to continue winning forever even after 2004.

 

I didn't see any of the Vettel years being as dominant as the 2002/2004 Ferrari. By the end of 2007, I was fully aboard the LH hype train and was rooting for him. In the Red Bull, Webber was my man, so I detested 2010 - 2013 because he was pummelled by Vettel. I saw Vettel as the second coming of Senna, seeing how easily he outqualified and outraced Webber, who was someone I rated highly since the Jaguar days.

 

I loved 2014 - 2016 though I immediately perceived them to be more dominant than the 02/04 Ferrari years. I was desperate for LH to win, and I loved the close team mate battle with Rosberg in 2014 and 2016. Something flipped in me by 2017, and really wanted LH to be beaten. Not sure why, maybe it was the whining in the forum despite his great cars   Around this time, I started perceiving Verstappen as the fastest man in F1. I first heard of him when he was breaking most karting lap records when he was a kid. My only connection to racing was being a sim racer on iRacing.com, so that could be another reason to support Verstappen, the sim racing nerd. I still think the 17 and 18 Mercedes was, overall, the best car in the field. As far as I was concerned, even 2019 was a dominant Merc win. F1 was no longer my favorite sport, and I started looking forward to MotoGP more.

 

Since 2021, F1 has returned to being my favorite. If Red Bull is indeed an easy victor this year, I will not be complaining. It will be interesting to see if I ever start rooting against MV.

[Cornholio]

McLaren - just before my time so nothing first hand, my first season watching (1991) was arguably the crossover year between that and....

 

Williams - Was a childhood Mansell and Hill fan so unashamedly had no problem at all and still look back fondly on those years to this day.

 

Ferrari - Initially pleased for them in 2000 (they'd waited long enough). 2001 just felt like Ferrari/Schumacher executing better and being more consistent than anyone else rather than domination (McLaren and Williams could and did win races on merit that year). Austria 2002 left a sour taste partly because it felt so unnecessary. 2003 was a good fight, which just leaves 2004 and at least there was the story of BAR and Renault rising up the grid, and honestly felt like those years just sometimes happen. Plus I was old enough by now to recognise I'd be hypocritical to have been fine with Williams dominating with my favourite drivers but not with this.

 

Mercedes - The first three years prior to Rosberg's retirement, at least we on occasion had a two-driver fight, so felt closer to Prost/Senna than Schumacher/Barrichello. After that, it did become a bit annoying, but again, based on my initial years watching and getting into the sport I couldn't not give grudging respect. The one negative I felt with this period was, a combination of higher reliability and the absence of a tyre war (unlike in Ferrari's time) it felt like there were fewer variables to trip Mercedes up.on a given day.

[Dan333SP]

I remember it being a tremendous relief in 2003 and 2005 that a year of Ferrari steamrolling the competition wasn't going to be followed by another year of the same. In retrospect it's pretty obvious that it took some extraordinary FIA interventions and last-minute rule changes to prevent Ferrari and Bridgestone from continuing to dominate, but Max Mosley was good enough at misdirection that I don't think I really cared about that at the time. But generally at that time, F1 was something me and my dad and my brothers would watch together on a Sunday and while we would certainly moan about unfairness or dull competition it didn't occur to me not to watch it.

 

For me, Mercedes' dominance in 2014-16 was by far the most difficult or despairy period to try and enjoy F1. The Brackley team was so far ahead and the rivalry between Hamilton and Rosberg brought out the unattractive sides of both drivers, as rivalries within the same team normally do (see Senna/Prost or Webber/Vettel). It became tempting to diminish or belittle the skill and achievements of both drivers because each only had the other to beat. I think something we do in forums as well is try and convince ourselves that there are deeper structural issues behind one team having all the success. For instance, the prohibitive cost of engine development in the hybrid era, the cost cap, unequal distribution of resources meaning only three teams are capable of running at the front. We are very literate and committed to understanding the sport but as with most internet communities can fall prey to groupthink or seeing hidden motives and forces in the chaos. In any case, this provides endless analytical fodder (and excuses) but also makes following the sport seem a bit pointless.

 

Anyway really interesting idea for a thread Nemo, looking forward to seeing what comes out of this discussion.

 

I echo this. I started watching in 1998 and was a big Ferrari fan, so Schumacher's domination was exciting for me since I wanted him to stamp his legacy on the sport as the best of all time and it felt like he was doing that. Plus, at the time I was really invested in leaning about the technical aspects of the sport and was enamored with the V10s and their noise, so I could watch a car lapping by itself quite happily all day. 

 

The races, even in the "good" years like 2003, were largely boring though, passing mostly happened during pit stop cycles and there was very little wheel to wheel action. Alonso on Sunday added more actual racing excitement in 20 laps than I remember feeling over the course of some of those entire seasons. 

 

Mercedes in 2014 was something else entirely. Nothing against Lewis or Nico, but for me the biggest thing was just how ugly the cars became and how awful they sounded (and still do). It was really hard to get excited about these things, and it felt far more depressing knowing that Mercedes had the engine formula nailed and were likely to dominate for a long period of time. 

 

One footnote here is that I am surprised at how extreme the reactions to Max/RBR have been after Bahrain. Yes, the car seems very good, but the gaps aren't THAT large. Everyone talks about Alonso being 30+ seconds behind in 3rd place, and maybe my memory is off, but that seemed like quite a normal gap between 1st and 3rd for long periods of F1 history. The qualifying gap seems pretty narrow, and I strongly believe that the budget cap/wind tunnel/CFD limits will work as intended in allowing the slower teams to make up some of the gap during the season. 

[Rediscoveryx]

It's always the same story. Nothing really new here.

 

When Williams were dominating in the early 90's it only took a year or so before the regulations were drastically changed (the 1994 regulations were set sometime in early 1993 and discussions were ongoing even earlier than that given their complete domination in 1992).

 

During the Ferrari years the complaints started almost immidiately as soon as the 2000 title was sown up and it quickly became apparent in 2001 that no one was going to mount a serious challenge (not even Rubens).

 

...and the complaints about Merc domination started almost immidiately in 2014.

 

I think the main difference that applies to both the current Red Bull domination and the 2014 Merc-domination is that the rules appear to be more or less set in stone for a longer period of time now. Previously there was always the hope that regulations could change swiftly, or that competitors could just pour money at the problem, now the main goal of the regulations seems to be cost avoidance and hence locking the regulations (effectively locking in the relative performance more or less) for a number of years.

[Nemo1965]

I really don't want to derail your thread but I don't think it's a secret that Max is the villain of F1.

Domination is not something that most people want to see. But even more so when the person dominating is Max/Red Bull.

I don't think people would be quite so bothered if it was LeClerc or Lando or Russell dominating.

I don’t agree with you about this villain-thingy but I appreciate your candor. Perhaps I should add a poll about his aspect? Max: ‘Is it coz I am Dutch?’

[PayasYouRace]

I do think a lot is made in retrospect of the Williams period, which only really encompassed two seasons of real domination, in 1992/3, and then another fairly dominant season in 1996.

I was only young when I started watching in 1996. But the vibe I got wasn’t that people were tired of Williams domination. It seemed more that people were glad they bounced back after two difficult seasons. Then 1997 was a close fought year.

[DevilDare]

I don't mind dominant periods as long as it is my driver doing the winning. Started watching F1 in 1998 when I knew that Schumacher was a 2 time champ, but was the underdog against the McLarens. I saw Ferrari as dominant only in 2002 and 2004, though in hindsight, 2001 was an easy WDC as well. I wanted MS to continue winning forever even after 2004.

 

I didn't see any of the Vettel years being as dominant as the 2002/2004 Ferrari. By the end of 2007, I was fully aboard the LH hype train and was rooting for him. In the Red Bull, Webber was my man, so I detested 2010 - 2013 because he was pummelled by Vettel. I saw Vettel as the second coming of Senna, seeing how easily he outqualified and outraced Webber, who was someone I rated highly since the Jaguar days.

 

I loved 2014 - 2016 though I immediately perceived them to be more dominant than the 02/04 Ferrari years. I was desperate for LH to win, and I loved the close team mate battle with Rosberg in 2014 and 2016. Something flipped in me by 2017, and really wanted LH to be beaten. Not sure why, maybe it was the whining in the forum despite his great cars   Around this time, I started perceiving Verstappen as the fastest man in F1. I first heard of him when he was breaking most karting lap records when he was a kid. My only connection to racing was being a sim racer on iRacing.com, so that could be another reason to support Verstappen, the sim racing nerd. I still think the 17 and 18 Mercedes was, overall, the best car in the field. As far as I was concerned, even 2019 was a dominant Merc win. F1 was no longer my favorite sport, and I started looking forward to MotoGP more.

 

Since 2021, F1 has returned to being my favorite. If Red Bull is indeed an easy victor this year, I will not be complaining. It will be interesting to see if I ever start rooting against MV.

 

Incredible username to post content ratio. (Not intentional I'm sure).

Edited by DevilDare, 09 March 2023 - 15:07.

[Jellyfishcake]

I do think a lot is made in retrospect of the Williams period, which only really encompassed two seasons of real domination, in 1992/3, and then another fairly dominant season in 1996.

I was only young when I started watching in 1996. But the vibe I got wasn’t that people were tired of Williams domination. It seemed more that people were glad they bounced back after two difficult seasons. Then 1997 was a close fought year.

 

I think there might also be a factor of never the same driver winning the championship when it was Williams, so it's not the driver/team domination combo, 

 

Personally I'm not a Hamilton or Mercedes fan, so the domination starting from 2014 did dampen my love for the sport, that along with the awful cars and hybrid engines really hit it home, 

 

Whereas as someone who liked Vettel the years before were obviously easier, but I think outside of the second half of 2013, it never seemd like he/they were as dominant in those years as the Merc that followed, 

 

I think looking to modern day, there is definitely more concern of Max entering a dominant spell because on paper now it looks like we've gone from dominantion to domination to now potentially a new domination

 

At the end of the day since  2009 everything has been won by the Merc (Brackley) or Red Bull, and I don't think that's good for the sport

Edited by Jellyfishcake, 09 March 2023 - 15:12.

[ensign14]

The periods of domination in my watching life, that have lasted for any period of longer than a couple of seasons, are:

 

-McLaren, late 80s: which was brilliant because it was Prost v Senna, so utterly compelling;

 

-Williams 1992-3: Mansell's redemption song, but then Prost looked like he was taking the piss

 

-Ferrari early 2000s: tainted because a) Ferrari basically ran a one-car team and b) the FIA had continually stopped anyone from ever challenging Ferrari

 

-Red Bull early 2010s: tainted because they also basically ran a one car team;

 

-Mercedes recently: interesting because of Rosberg's attempts to play a psychological war

 

One other factor to throw in is that the homogenization of the format has led to a narrowing of a required set of skills.  1995-2004 for instance rewarded pure speed because the need to balance out or manage a fuel load was just not there, it turned racing into a series of mini-sprints.  The increasing reliance on aero has reduced the need for a skill in overtaking and DRS has not done much to reverse that imbalance.  The ultimate for that was cutting Hockenheim in half - at least the original was different.

[Leibowitz]

One thing to consider is Ferrari’s domination was followed by a period of 6 very competitive seasons while Williams was dominant only for 4 years with Benneton winning the title in between. As for Mercedes, people got sick and tired of it and there was quite a bit of moaning about it. What makes RB’s domination even worse is precisely that it is happening right after the longest domination in F1. From 2013 till 2023 we’ve had only one season with two opposing teams coming to the last race with the chance of winning the title, and people are (rightfully) outraged at the prospect of yet another domination on horizont.

Edited by Leibowitz, 09 March 2023 - 15:21.

[MKSixer]

I don’t agree with you about this villain-thingy but I appreciate your candor. Perhaps I should add a poll about his aspect? Max: ‘Is it coz I am Dutch?’

I think it's because he evidences poor character and seems to be a it of a jerk.  The Checo incident last season in which he stated he wouldn't help his, "team mate", cemented this for many people...even Verstappen apologists.  

[lustigson]

One thing is clear from Verstappen's domination last season and possibly this year: it's all about the car. *runs*

 

I've basically rooted for Ferrari since late 1990, but was really put off by another season of dominance in 2004. I even quite as part-time news editor for Autosport.nl because of it — too boring to bother.

 

Somehow previous periods of domination didn't seem as bad, because, as mentioned above, at least there was some level of in-team rivalry. I mean, even in 1993 Hill kept Prost somewhat honest at Williams.

 

Vettel was quite dominant in hindsight, but the 2010 and 2012 seasons were pretty competitive, and they book-ended more dominant seasons 2011 and 2013. 

 

Mercedes' dominance at first was OK because, again, at least some level of in-team competition, culminating in Rosberg's well-deserved win in 2016.

 

From Japan 2018 onwards I basically stopped watching apart from 2 races, including the-race-that-shall-never-be-mentioned.   Two things put me off:

1. Ferrari making a bunch of fools for themselves again and again, despite having good cars. Too frustrating to have a TV event spoil my Sundays, really.
2. Dutch fans going ape on anything Verstappen did, no matter how stupid, unsportsmanlike, and what not. Ruined my love of the sport, basically.

[Nemo1965]

Some quick reactions before I lose track:

 

MkSixer: I am not convinced that Max or Horner or Red Bull is or are seen as the villain outside a very speficic group of fans. To be precise: our group of fans, the anoraks, the frequent Autosport-Forum posters, people who can tell you how many cylinders a Ford Cosworth-engine has. Outside that group Max is suprisingly popular, and yes, also outside of the Netherlands. I don't think he is a jerk by the way. As I posted before (sorry, a bit of a brag, but is true): I knew several people from the advertising world who have worked with him and ARE working with him and they really describe him as a nice guy. His entourage... (managers and so forth)... that is another thing. 

 

By the way: this opinion does not make me a Verstappen apologist...   

 

Several other posters: thank you for pointing out for how long Red Bull and Mercedes (also under the guise of Brawn) have actually won every damn thing in F1. I just had not realized that! But do the general fan have that perception or awareness. Sceptical... And I think this panic of domination is not something just on these shores, it seems widely held.

 

Beri: You wrote: ' I do think that people were annoyed by any form of dominance even back in the Lotus years.' Well, I can almost prove they werent' (at least the F1-press was not, nor were the drivers even worried, perturbed or scared by Lotus.)

 

 

 

Rediscoveryx: you seem the only poster that believes that a. nothing peculiar about this early panic. b. that already in 2014 there was similar furore about Mercedes. I think you are totally mistaken but perhaps you want to elaborate?

Edited by Nemo1965, 09 March 2023 - 15:46.

[Dan333SP]

Nemo, another good source for this may well be the Bring Back V10s podcast. I'm just listening to their new episode on the first race of the 2002 season, lots of good contemporary quotes and reactions to the prospect of Ferrari dominating. Montoya said something to the effect of "If we ran our 2001 car, we'd be 10th, but Ferrari are on pole". 

[Nemo1965]

Nemo, another good source for this may well be the Bring Back V10s podcast. I'm just listening to their new episode on the first race of the 2002 season, lots of good contemporary quotes and reactions to the prospect of Ferrari dominating. Montoya said something to the effect of "If we ran our 2001 car, we'd be 10th, but Ferrari are on pole". 

 

Thank you. Full disclosure: in the Schumacher-years I kind of accepted his dominance because I believed he stood head and shoulders above anyone else. It was only years later I understood how much Bridgestone and Ferrari were like two peas in a pod and basically all teams (bar the Michelin-runners) were handicapped before they even got to the track. (And like Petrobas and Mercedes have perhaps... but I have no proof of that.) So in that sense it is good the furore about Red Bull comes quick and early. Even as dedicated fan you often don't see the whole picture.

Edited by Nemo1965, 09 March 2023 - 15:53.

[noriaki]

With Max I've already got the same bad feeling as I had in 2001/02, 2011 and 2015 - that this thing could go on for a while.

 

While I do not wish their domination to get artificially ended, it is what it is. While I admire each and every one of those drivers and most of those teams - unfortunately for me, having one dominant bloke winning most races without contest year on, year out, makes everything about F1 slightly duller for me. I just can't bring myself to root for a winner. 

[messy]

I think it's a good point too that the unreliability of the 90s and 00s made domination on pace much easier to stomach because there used to be a jeopardy about whether a car would finish even if they were locking out the front row by 1.3 seconds. Look at those McLarens in 99/00. That jeopardy isn't there anymore. If you see an easy front row lock out these days you're usually relying on a safety car or it's an easy 1-2 finish as well. Ferrari were the first to really marry dominant pace with bulletproof reliability, although McLaren didn't do too bad in '88 I guess.

[Risil]

Rediscoveryx: you seem the only poster that believes that a. nothing peculiar about this early panic. b. that already in 2014 there was similar furore about Mercedes. I think you are totally mistaken but perhaps you want to elaborate?

 

2015's probably a better analogy. I certainly remember a freakout after that year's Australian Grand Prix. Neatly saved by Seb and Ferrari outfoxing the Mercedes team on strategy next time out in Malaysia.

[tourister46a]

Incredible username to post content ratio. (Not intentional I'm sure).

Don't understand what you mean, but I hope it wasn't an insult

[SenorSjon]

I do think a lot is made in retrospect of the Williams period, which only really encompassed two seasons of real domination, in 1992/3, and then another fairly dominant season in 1996.

I was only young when I started watching in 1996. But the vibe I got wasn’t that people were tired of Williams domination. It seemed more that people were glad they bounced back after two difficult seasons. Then 1997 was a close fought year.

 

The WIlliams was ridiculously ahead of the rest. If they had gone a bit more Mercedes about it (aka, dial everything back to a 5 tenths gap), it could have endured longer. Mansell was 1st or 2nd (or DNF) the whole 1992 season. Patrese was no match and the non-Williams cars usually finished between 40s and 1 lap behind. There was nothing they could do. 

 

The Ferrari era of 00-04 only had 2 dominant seasons and it felt for me as a reward for 1996-99. It certainly felt as a bit of justice for me. Back then, other teams still had all the resources to compete or try and beat Ferrari.

From 09 onwards, I had a bit more trouble with the dominant stuff. First, they last longer. Vettel seemed a lot like a one-trick pony. He suffered when the rear wasn't as stable as he would have liked. He is for me the blown diffuser King.

The Merc era was dreadfull. Not only was it lightning fast (I'm ok with that), but what irked me the most the other teams were forbidden to try and gain on them. Engine? TOKENS! Testing? BANNED! So it was locked in from the start.'17 and '18 had a different aero concept, but it always felt Merc would always win a season of attrition against Ferrari. And if not, they would call FIA and get stuff banned from others. They were even allowed to continue using DAS for a whole year. Other teams had to remove stuff almost as soon as it was found.

 

Now we've seem to have entered the Max era. 

2021 extremely tense and will be talked about forever

2022 had him win 15 races, yet they usually didn't come in dominant fashion but he had to work for it. At some point, Ferrari caved completely in, after giving away too much wins at the start of the year.

2023 we're 1 race in. I'll reserve my judgement.

[Disgrace]

The only period of dominance I enjoyed was the Brawn/Button fairy tale, but even that was short-lived, with numerous races made easier than they should have been due to Vettel's relative inexperience. But we're unlikely to see anything like it any time soon.

[pacificquay]

McLaren domination - loved it

 

Any other team - not so much 

[DevilDare]

Don't understand what you mean, but I hope it wasn't an insult

 

Well it would be easy to label you as a glory hunter in football terms after reading that post. And then your username being a tourist.. and the influx of fans after Drive To Survive and.. well, I'll show myself out. 

 

No offense meant by any means. Just a bit of fun. 

Edited by DevilDare, 09 March 2023 - 16:23.

[Colbul1]

I think the real issue of domination only really comes up when only 1 driver in the team has a chance of winning.  The McLaren domination of the late 80s was fine as there were 2 fighting it out.  Even though Mansell and Williams broke the McLaren streak in 1992, by race 4 there were already complaints and this was essentially because as soon as Mansell got to the first corner first he won the race.  Now, I was a massive Mansell fan and loved it (there was always the jeopardy of him waving to the crowd!), but essentially once he was ahead you could turn off the telly and do something else.  Same with Schumacher and Ferrari, 1997-2000 were great years, 2001 to 2004, invariably if he was leading lap 1 it would be a borefest and you could turn off.  With Vettel, Webber could always have a good race and same with Mercedes, it wasn't always the Hamilton show.  Now, with Max, corner 1 lead, may as well turn off because nobody is going to get close and life is too short!

[Boxerevo]

Being sincere, you as a truly fan of one driver will like when his team is the strongest, because every week you know your drive will truly get a real chance of winning. So every Formula 1 related gets easier. It is easier to wake up to watch or don't sleep on the dawn races, you will know that the weekend is probably going to your hand.

 

But absolutely, when your driver already have some stats, i would say that the years against another team are the most memorable.

 

So yeah, the best races for me where from 2007, 2008, 2010, 2017, 2018, 2021*. Because you know that you will have the chances but they are not certain, and there will be fights and will be fun, happy, angry, sadness, these are the really interesting seasons for me.

 

Now as Formula 1 Fan in general, it is hard to get a truly good season as overall, my feeling as Formula 1 Fan in general that the best overall season that i watched as fan was the 2010 season but you have to mix many things to get a fun season like that. When RB got it right, we had 2011 that was absolutely much easier championship for Vettel.

Edited by Boxerevo, 09 March 2023 - 16:37.

[SenorSjon]

I think the real issue of domination only really comes up when only 1 driver in the team has a chance of winning.  The McLaren domination of the late 80s was fine as there were 2 fighting it out.  Even though Mansell and Williams broke the McLaren streak in 1992, by race 4 there were already complaints and this was essentially because as soon as Mansell got to the first corner first he won the race.  Now, I was a massive Mansell fan and loved it (there was always the jeopardy of him waving to the crowd!), but essentially once he was ahead you could turn off the telly and do something else.  Same with Schumacher and Ferrari, 1997-2000 were great years, 2001 to 2004, invariably if he was leading lap 1 it would be a borefest and you could turn off.  With Vettel, Webber could always have a good race and same with Mercedes, it wasn't always the Hamilton show.  Now, with Max, corner 1 lead, may as well turn off because nobody is going to get close and life is too short!

 

McLaren domination had the two best drivers of that generation in the same team. We haven't seen that since.

 

With Mercedes, you would be hard pressed not to finish at least second. And while previous eras at least stopped at 16-18 races a year, the Mercedes streak had 20-22 races a year for more guarenteed boredom.