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Meyer Shank Racing Cheating Story


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#1 Magoo

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 19:58

Meyer Shank Racing, winner of the 2023 Rolex 24 at Daytona, has been handed a series of severe penalties by IMSA after the team was caught manipulating its tire pressure data. Reportedly, partner Honda Performance Development somehow discovered the scam and turned the team in. IMSA took its time in analyzing the matter and getting its ducks lined up. 

 

The penalties are severe, we can guess, because the offense was so conscious and deliberate. There was no question that the team intended to circumvent the regs and lie to race officials. The plan lacked any plausible deniability. There was no possible argument that the offense was unintentional. 

 

It remains to be seen what Honda does next. Is all forgiven? Will they patch things up? Will Honda drop Meyer Shank soon or at the end of the season? 

 

 

 

https://racer.com/20...nical-breaches/



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#2 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 20:40

They should have been disqualified, you can not race and win when blatantly cheating.



#3 Bob Riebe

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 21:15

Such asinine rules should not exist.

Racing has become a specification farce.



#4 Greg Locock

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 21:42

I agree in general. But. Tires are the #1 safety system in the car and running them softer than recommended increases the chances of them breaking up over a race. Since nobody explores that curve thoroughly, I suppose it might be better to set a minimum. The natural counter argument is that it is a racing decision. I guess it is the same argument as minimum mass regulations.



#5 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 21:46

It's simple, knowingly cheating should be immediate DSQ - You can compare to PED's for athletes. Rules being stupid or not does not come into play, all other competitors managed to follow them. The competitors finishing 2nd, 3rd and 4th should be peeeed off.



#6 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 22:44

Can a Mod merge this one over to the Daytona chating thread?



#7 Magoo

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 22:56

They should have been disqualified, you can not race and win when blatantly cheating.

 

 

I totally agree on principle, but I understand why IMSA chose not to alter the race outcome and open an entire can of worms, especially so long after the event. 



#8 Magoo

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Posted 09 March 2023 - 22:58

Such asinine rules should not exist.

Racing has become a specification farce.

 

 

Rules can be good or bad but racing series have them. And the team chose not to protest them but deliberately circumvent them through what we can safely call dishonest means. 



#9 LolaB0860

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Posted 10 March 2023 - 01:41

I totally agree on principle, but I understand why IMSA chose not to alter the race outcome and open an entire can of worms, especially so long after the event.


What can of worms?

Absolutely no understanding for IMSA side from my side.

#10 Bloggsworth

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Posted 10 March 2023 - 09:59

The FIA took away Schumacher's points for a whole year, penalised Tyrrel for a whole season, fined McLaren $100 Million. The Olympic Committee remove gold medals after many years, statues are toppled after hundreds of years - One month too long to change a result? Yeah, right...



#11 cbo

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Posted 10 March 2023 - 15:28

The FIA took away Schumacher's points for a whole year, penalised Tyrrel for a whole season, fined McLaren $100 Million. The Olympic Committee remove gold medals after many years, statues are toppled after hundreds of years - One month too long to change a result? Yeah, right...


Does anyone actually know anylonger who won Tour de France on the nineties and noughties? A staggering amount of results were deleted, AFAIK.

Edited by cbo, 10 March 2023 - 21:26.


#12 BRG

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Posted 11 March 2023 - 10:40

Most of the 1990s TdFs were won by Miguel Indurain and those wins remain unquestioned, although given the level of doping at the time, it seems unlikely to me that he wasn't using illicit substances.  From 1999 to 2005, there is now NO winner of the TdF as the winner on the day was DQ'd and so many of the runners-up also proved to be doping that nominating a new 'winner' was too difficult.   Bjarne Riis (1996) has admitted cheating with dope but remains the official winner as the UCI felt that too long a time had passed to change the result.  The TdF organisation don't agree and do not recognise him as a winner.

 

But Carlos Sastre in 2008 may be an uncontested 'clean' winner.  One out of twenty ain't bad!!



#13 Canuck

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Posted 18 March 2023 - 15:02

It's simple, knowingly cheating should be immediate DSQ - You can compare to PED's for athletes. Rules being stupid or not does not come into play, all other competitors managed to follow them or have not yet been caught. The competitors finishing 2nd, 3rd and 4th should be peeeed off.

Fixed that for you.

#14 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 18 March 2023 - 16:57

Fixed that for you.

 

Please unfix and post what your views are, do not quote my posts differently from what I posted.



#15 Canuck

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Posted 19 March 2023 - 01:38

I…don’t think I will. No.

#16 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 March 2023 - 20:46

I think it's bad form to misrepresent someone's statements, you can just post a reply. But like MSR we all do what we can get away with.



#17 Fat Boy

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 21:58

Please unfix and post what your views are, do not quote my posts differently from what I posted.

 

That's a reasonable request.


Edited by Fat Boy, 20 March 2023 - 23:40.


#18 Fat Boy

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Posted 20 March 2023 - 23:27

Well, Lads, I've kinda been busy the last couple weeks. God Forbid, we actually might be discussing racing, here.

 

The story is that HPD found the cheat and busted Shank. That's possible, but unlikely. I think that's just how HPD spun it to save any face possible. My guess is that someone at Wayne Taylor Racing found some sort of discrepancy in the setup of the data system and then Wayne gave HPD the choice of whether they were going to say something or whether he was. WTR and Shank are stablemates and share data, so they would have access to all the data. More importantly, they would have access to the setup files. I don't know how exactly it was done. There are any number of ways which the telemetry going to IMSA could have been altered. The easy-to-catch method would be to create some sort of math channel. I doubt if it was that. The next would be to alter the CAN template from the TPS system. That seems more likely. If I were doing it, I think I would have gone to the hardware level, but I tend to over-kill things.

 

Michelin gives minimum stabilized average pressures to respect. At Daytona, it's quite high (2.1b) because of the banking loads, and it definitely hurts performance in the infield. At lower load tracks, that number drops to 1.9b. If I were to guess, I'd say the cheat was relatively small, probably 0.05 to 0.1b. That's enough to give a meaningful deg & grip advantage without being obvious when the Michelin guys take their own pressures. Is the pressure cheat the reason they won Daytona? No. Would they have won running legal pressures? I believe they would have. Was the cheat advantage? You bet your a$s.

 

There seems to be a bit of confusion around here as to the definition of the word 'scapegoat.' To me, Ryan McCarthy, the now unemployed race engineer, is both the villian and the scapegoat in this one. He was the race engineer, so he was responsible for this choice. However, are we meant to believe he was the only one in on it? Man, I find that tough to believe. Should he be fired and banned for cheating as a first infraction? I find that to be a pretty tough pill to swallow. If anyone had to be actually fired, then Ryan was definitely _not_ the highest ranking engineer at Shank's. I'm curious if this retribution was put forth by IMSA or HPD, but we'll never know.

 

I do have a question for all you calling for Shank's head on a stick. WTF is it to you? How does it affect any of your lives one way or the other? The dancing bears went out and had a parade and you were entertained. Accept it for what it is, entertainment. We're not curing cancer here, folks, and the guilty party had to eat their S4!t sandwich. The penalty was not a minor one. You got your pound of flesh. Are you the same people who hate Tom Brady? At the end of the day, IMSA is a NASCAR organization and when the fans leave the track, they know who won and that won't change. I can tell you that any possible benefit from the win has been lost.

 

Cheating happens in everything. It's part of the human condition. The American road-race culture in general is less accepting of cheating than that of, say, Stock Car world. In IMSA, it's a big deal to have something on the car which you know is a blatant no-no. Not that tech would necessarily find it, but there is enough cross-pollination among teams that it would be sure to get out sooner or later. The teams that play a lot of game are generally not respected or successful. At least it used to be, in NASCAR, if you _didn't_ have 1/2 a dozen things on the car that could get you pitched, you weren't trying hard enough (We need to return to this one, BTW). I'm not trying to make the Road Race racers to be anything they're not. If the line of the rule doesn't form a _complete_ circle, then it's fair game to color outside of that line. (Eg. My Qual tires might not have made it all the way up to stabilized pressures when the tire was at it's peak, even though I could have raised the pressures to make it happen. We all accept this as OK.)

 

Why is the rule there? Marketing. Michelin makes a hell of a good tire. I'm not kidding; they're spectacular. As soon as they came in the series, they gave recommended minimums, but the rule had no teeth. At the end of Daytona a couple years ago, ('21, I think?) Ganassi lost a couple tires right in a row and lost the race because of the stops. I don't know how low they were running, but when they put the 3rd RR on the car, a guy came out and stuck some pressure in before the car left the lane, which is a pretty absurd thing to do during a stop unless you're running _REAL_ low. Anyway, Michelin felt they ended up with egg on their face and the minimum pressures became law. They have penalize teams in races, but they've been completely cool about the rule. If you make an honest mistake and are running a 0.05b low (easy to do as you go from day to night), then they'll say something and come by on the next set to make sure you rectified the issue. They've only penalized teams who repeatedly run afoul set after set.

 

The crime wasn't running too low of tire pressures as much as it was the cover-up and the intentional nature of the deal. Honestly, I think this one was a bit artless. It's not like everyone in the paddock hadn't considered the exact same thing. We all know how to do it. I've just always stuck to the number because I know I can make the car work there and I accept the risk of someone else fudging it. It's a juice/squeeze thing for me, and it appears this has been a reasonable choice. Sometimes I don't understand the whole cheating thing, because there is always more work to be done on the stuff which is actually legal. I don't know where people get all the time.

 

P.S. I think some of you should know there are also camber limits, unless you want to get up in arms about that as well.

 

P.P.S. Don't be so naive about Sastre.


Edited by Fat Boy, 21 March 2023 - 15:58.


#19 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 00:42

MotoGP is going to be enforcing a minimum tire pressure rule this year. And the threshold is kinda close to the upper limit where they start losing the front. So I expect incidents, frustrated riders, accusations of fiddling, and actual fiddling. 



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#20 Fat Boy

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 02:40

So is WEC, and there's no telling how absurdly they will end up policing it. Honestly, they are just out of control with the level of regulation. There is literally a rule for everything and they actively want to penalize you so they can be part of the show. It's nauseating.

 

I do consider it a point of pride that I've gotten two tire pressure rules implemented on my own in the same series (albeit different cars) with different tire manufactures. I run lefts sides as low as I can on an oval. That meant I was starting them at about 0.65b. One manufacturer caught it after a while and wrote a rule. The new one came in and they forgot to include the rule. I did it again, and got the same rule re-written. The peer engineer I did it together with the first time got the same rule written with a 3rd manufacturer in a third series! The tire reps nearly s--t themselves when they took the pressure before qual. "You've got a flat", "Nope. GO!" The disappointment each time when we got pole was thoroughly entertaining.



#21 gruntguru

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 06:23

I think it's bad form to misrepresent someone's statements, you can just post a reply. But like MSR we all do what we can get away with.

 

I don't think that was the intention - he posted the alteration in bold text. The practice is fine as long as it is obvious what was removed and what was added. Perhaps coloured text would be better - and strikethrough instead of deletion.



#22 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 08:53

I don't think that was the intention - he posted the alteration in bold text. The practice is fine as long as it is obvious what was removed and what was added. Perhaps coloured text would be better - and strikethrough instead of deletion.

 

No it is bad form, and since I do take issue and asked that he does not quote me for words not said, he should politely remove it and not swing a finger at me instead,



#23 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 11:06

So is WEC, and there's no telling how absurdly they will end up policing it. Honestly, they are just out of control with the level of regulation. There is literally a rule for everything and they actively want to penalize you so they can be part of the show. It's nauseating.

 

I do consider it a point of pride that I've gotten two tire pressure rules implemented on my own in the same series (albeit different cars) with different tire manufactures. I run lefts sides as low as I can on an oval. That meant I was starting them at about 0.65b. One manufacturer caught it after a while and wrote a rule. The new one came in and they forgot to include the rule. I did it again, and got the same rule re-written. The peer engineer I did it together with the first time got the same rule written with a 3rd manufacturer in a third series! The tire reps nearly s--t themselves when they took the pressure before qual. "You've got a flat", "Nope. GO!" The disappointment each time when we got pole was thoroughly entertaining.

 

I'm sympathetic to the tire company because they get the **** if it goes wrong and the line isn't just our product is bad but our product is dangerous. I think instead of penalties they should just pull your tires for a session. 



#24 desmo

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 14:05

I think it's bad form to misrepresent someone's statements, you can just post a reply. But like MSR we all do what we can get away with.

It is bad form, please do not use the quote tags on paraphrases of other poster's content. It's quite easy to misrepresent what others have said via a conventional misleading strawman paraphrase without misusing the quote tags. Happens here daily.



#25 desmo

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 14:15

Are telemetric instrumented valve pressure devices accurate enough to use to trigger a black flag? Because using spec pressure sensors seems like the simplest solution. Maybe too simple.



#26 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 14:20

 In MotoGP the data will go straight to race control, bypassing the data logger?

 

 

https://www.motorspo...-bar-you-crash/



#27 Fat Boy

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 15:30

I'm sympathetic to the tire company because they get the **** if it goes wrong and the line isn't just our product is bad but our product is dangerous. I think instead of penalties they should just pull your tires for a session. 

And I get that part, which is one of the reasons I don't squeal about playing ball with it, but I am willing to exploit the advantage when it's just sitting there unaddressed. At that point, the risk is mine. The problem is the Euro drivers come over and they are used to running 1.65-1.7b hot pressures, so they lose their sh!t when they see 2.1 or 2.2. A couple years ago, it was higher. When a tire blows, the structural damage generally happened when the tires are at cold pressures. If the driver crashes a couple curbs on the out-lap at Daytona, Watkins or Petit, it's easy to cause damage in the sidewall transition and that's basically a dotted line for fatigue failure to start. Until this year, they've had tire ovens in WEC and ELMS, so their tires never had to run truly low pressures. They could be at whatever temperature they wanted and pressures were always high enough to protect the structure of the tire. Because of this, their hot pressures were unmonitored. Now that the ovens are gone, the pressures are being monitored.


Edited by Fat Boy, 21 March 2023 - 15:31.


#28 Fat Boy

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 15:41

 In MotoGP the data will go straight to race control, bypassing the data logger?

 

 

https://www.motorspo...-bar-you-crash/

The article makes it sound like they have a TPMS radio with a dedicated link to race control. In IMSA, they take all the data and the tire pressures are just part of it. Monitoring is done on the team telemetry and with pit lane spot checks as the tires come off the car. But, there are a lot of teams and only so many Michelin reps. They can't cover every tire. Prior to Sebring, they required TP's  to be sent in absolute pressure as opposed to gauge, which was being use prior. That's what makes me suspect their was an offset/multiplier change in the CAN stream template.

 

 

I did get a kick when it says the window is only 0.3b. Jesus, if your pressures are that far off, it's time to go home.


Edited by Fat Boy, 21 March 2023 - 15:46.


#29 Fat Boy

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 15:49

Are telemetric instrumented valve pressure devices accurate enough to use to trigger a black flag? Because using spec pressure sensors seems like the simplest solution. Maybe too simple.

They're pretty damned good. They're not cheap, but they're good. If there's any question, a check with a gauge as they come off the car will verify the number (although the pit lane pressure rise works in your favor).



#30 Fat Boy

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 15:53

 Since nobody explores that curve thoroughly,

Au contraire, mon fre're!



#31 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 16:20

The article makes it sound like they have a TPMS radio with a dedicated link to race control. In IMSA, they take all the data and the tire pressures are just part of it. Monitoring is done on the team telemetry and with pit lane spot checks as the tires come off the car. But, there are a lot of teams and only so many Michelin reps. They can't cover every tire. Prior to Sebring, they required TP's  to be sent in absolute pressure as opposed to gauge, which was being use prior. That's what makes me suspect their was an offset/multiplier change in the CAN stream template.

 

 

I did get a kick when it says the window is only 0.3b. Jesus, if your pressures are that far off, it's time to go home.

 

Front tire expansion seems to be a problem in current MotoGP. I don't know how it compares to cars or if it's a knock-on effect of all the aero or how close the racing is that they're all sitting in boiling hot air, but their fronts do get away from them quickly. I guess if enough guys lowside they'll start setting up the bikes to work at a higher pressure. But that will probably need a design philosophy tweak too. 

 

And a new Michelin front is coming...someday.



#32 Canuck

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 16:37

It is bad form, please do not use the quote tags on paraphrases of other poster's content. It's quite easy to misrepresent what others have said via a conventional misleading strawman paraphrase without misusing the quote tags. Happens here daily.

There were no deletions to the original statement and my addition was clearly made in bold. I don’t think anyone could interpret that as putting words in their mouth without tying themselves in knots first.

Perhaps I am failed in my memory - entirely possible - but I don’t believe this is the first time we’ve seen a Fixed it For You post in the tech forum. If it is, and therefore is not in keeping with the historical antics of this forum, of which I am a regular clown, I’ll remove it.

#33 Fat Boy

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 20:19

Front tire expansion seems to be a problem in current MotoGP. I don't know how it compares to cars

PV=nRT is a tough one to argue with. I can's see how it would be appreciably different.



#34 jcbc3

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 21:04

There were no deletions to the original statement and my addition was clearly made in bold. I don’t think anyone could interpret that as putting words in their mouth without tying themselves in knots first.

Perhaps I am failed in my memory - entirely possible - but I don’t believe this is the first time we’ve seen a Fixed it For You post in the tech forum. If it is, and therefore is not in keeping with the historical antics of this forum, of which I am a regular clown, I’ll remove it.

 

Since Desmo is the Forum host and he said it is bad form, I believe you should quietly remove it now.

 

You are completely correct that many people on the collective forums do it and has done for a long time. But there are also a lot of people farting on the bus. When the interweb started out, we had something called netiquette. Alledging a quote and then adding to the quote was then and by some old farts like me still, considered bad netiquette, for the simple reason that people browsing through a thread might believe KWSN had said something he patently didn't.

 

So, please, in the future make your point as requested by KWSN of quoting him and then in your own words describe your opinion.



#35 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 21:14

PV=nRT is a tough one to argue with. I can's see how it would be appreciably different.

 

I guess because anything other than mild understeer on a bike is a DNF, so your catchable window is non-existent unless you're Marc Marquez. Sorta like dirty air at Indy? You're either fine or on the flatbed. If it was a problem with the rear they'd just be bucking and sliding, but the front end is fairly binary.



#36 desmo

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 21:17

Even on a bicycle or dirt bike, sliding the front is spooky.



#37 Bikr7549

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 21:53

 

I did get a kick when it says the window is only 0.3b. Jesus, if your pressures are that far off, it's time to go home.

As ambient temperature changes how do you maintain such a narrow pressure range? Is active control used?

 

There was someone at our local dirt track quite awhile back that supposedly had a pressure relief valve device connected up to the rears (thru the solid axle somehow) that would keep the rear tire pressure pair at a predetermined max so that the tire pressure would not increase beyond a limit as the race went on. I never saw it (and probably few did if the rumor of its existence was true). 



#38 desmo

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 22:05

How theoretically advantageous (or not) might actively controlling tire pressures individually in real time be? Might you want inside tire pressure different than outside in a turn, or a different one for pure accel on a drive wheel vs. cornering? Etc. etc. Would it make any appreciable difference?



#39 Bikr7549

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Posted 21 March 2023 - 22:16

How theoretically advantageous (or not) might actively controlling tire pressures individually in real time be? Might you want inside tire pressure different than outside in a turn, or a different one for pure accel on a drive wheel vs. cornering? Etc. etc. Would it make any appreciable difference?

If you could individually control each tire I'd think there would be an advantage. On independent suspension (as opposed to the solid axle on the car I mentioned-a sprint car) this might be a difficult thing to achieve, and with going up as well as down a bottle or compressor would be needed. 



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#40 Fat Boy

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Posted 22 March 2023 - 00:02

I guess because anything other than mild understeer on a bike is a DNF, so your catchable window is non-existent unless you're Marc Marquez. Sorta like dirty air at Indy? You're either fine or on the flatbed. If it was a problem with the rear they'd just be bucking and sliding, but the front end is fairly binary.

Well, it certainly looks like sliding the front is a dodgy proposition, but my comment was more concerning the pressure window, which is actually quite large. My guess is the real window of operation is a lot smaller. I've never raced bikes, so I don't know what kind of growth they see. My guess is it's relatively small compared to a car, because you don't have to deal with brake radiation nearly as much.



#41 Fat Boy

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Posted 22 March 2023 - 00:06

As ambient temperature changes how do you maintain such a narrow pressure range? Is active control used?

 

There was someone at our local dirt track quite awhile back that supposedly had a pressure relief valve device connected up to the rears (thru the solid axle somehow) that would keep the rear tire pressure pair at a predetermined max so that the tire pressure would not increase beyond a limit as the race went on. I never saw it (and probably few did if the rumor of its existence was true). 

Tire bleeders are a fairly common dirt track tool. They are just a spring-loaded valve mounted in the wheel. A few years ago, NASCAR guys were getting in trouble for putting tiny holes in the tires to allow them to bleed down during longer runs. When that was caught, they moved to lasering microscopic holes in the wheels to do the same thing.



#42 Fat Boy

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Posted 22 March 2023 - 00:06

How theoretically advantageous (or not) might actively controlling tire pressures individually in real time be? Might you want inside tire pressure different than outside in a turn, or a different one for pure accel on a drive wheel vs. cornering? Etc. etc. Would it make any appreciable difference?

That would be the holy grail.



#43 Bikr7549

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Posted 22 March 2023 - 02:05

Even on a bicycle or dirt bike, sliding the front is spooky.

 

Happens to me on occasion mountain biking. It lasts but a split second, your heart skips a beat, and is kinda cool. Of course if it was a longer slide that would not be cool and you would be digging dirt and rock out of your body for a while...