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An alternate history of Formula 1


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#1 F1Frog

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Posted 13 March 2023 - 18:26

The history of Formula 1, and motor racing in general, has always been tinged with tragedy, and many drivers have been killed, preventing them from being world champion. I have made an analysis of how the history of Formula 1 could have looked, hypothetically, if nobody had been killed or injured. I hope this is not considered disrespectful towards the many drivers who have lost their lives racing, I simply find it interesting to think about what they could have achieved if they had lived.

 

Of course, this is an impossible exercise really. Nobody knows which teams the drivers would have joined if they had survived and how they would have performed there. If teams like Mercedes, Lancia and Vanwall would have stayed longer, and by how much, if it weren’t for the deaths at Le Mans and Ascari at Monza in 1955, and Lewis-Evans in 1958. Also, driving styles might have changed in this scenario; Prost would have been better in the wet, while other drivers would have been less risk averse, while tracks like the Nurburgring and old Spa-Francorchamps would still be being used. And Jochen Rindt accused Lotus of prioritising speed over driver safety so if he was right, perhaps their cars would have been less competitive when no teams had to worry so much about safety, but this has not been factored in. Also, I have often assumed that drivers would stay in the same team for a longer time than is normally the case because it is particularly difficult to guess what team a certain driver would have been at five years after their death. Of course, none of this is fact, and is very open to speculation and arguments about certain years. But it is just supposed to be an interesting discussion point.

 

 

1950

Alfa Romeo started Formula 1 with the dominant car, but rather than having the three Fs driving for them, it is Jean-Pierre Wimille leading the team with Achille Varzi and Giuseppe Farina as his teammates, while Fangio races occasionally in a fourth car. I predict that Wimille would have beaten Farina to the first championship, while Varzi would have proved past his best. Meanwhile, Fangio impresses in his sporadic appearances.

1951

Jean-Pierre Wimille continues to lead the Alfa Romeo team, but Juan Manuel Fangio is now the permanent second driver. In the opening races when the team is still dominant, Fangio is instructed to hold station and Wimille beats him in the first few races, but as the Ferrari threat increases from Reims onwards, the drivers are allowed to race each other more often as they try to beat Ferrari and Fangio starts to get the upper hand over Wimille. This title could go any of three ways, but I am going to predict that Wimille and Fangio would have split the points so much that Alberto Ascari and Ferrari sneak through the middle to take the championship.

1952

With the move to Formula 2 regulations and Alfa Romeo’s withdrawal from Formula 1, it is an easy championship for Alberto Ascari and Ferrari, just as it was in real life. Juan Manuel Fangio would not have broken his neck and raced a Maserati, but would not have been able to challenge for the championship. Wimille might have retired, or might have continued, but is unlikely to have been a title contender at this stage. The same could be said of Raymond Sommer, even if he had got a drive in a more competitive car had he survived.

1953-54

I cannot see these seasons going any differently to how they went in real life, realistically, and so Ascari takes the 1953 title with Ferrari ahead of Fangio’s Maserati and Farina’s Ferrari, while he moves to Lancia for a part-season in 1954 and Fangio takes a dominant title after racing for both Maserati and Mercedes-Benz, despite the latter generally not being the best car.

1955

A tragic season in motor racing history, with the deaths of star drivers Bill Vukovich in Indianapolis and Alberto Ascari in Monza, the latter prompting Lancia’s withdrawal from motor racing. The Le Mans disaster, killing Pierre Levegh and 80 spectators, also prompts Mercedes’ withdrawal. I have decided to assume that both teams would have stayed one year longer than they did in the real championship, before eventually leaving anyway. In the 1955 season, it is likely that Juan Manuel Fangio would still have dominated with Stirling Moss playing loyal understudy and learning from the maestro, but Ascari’s Lancia may have been more competitive and allowed him to win a race towards the end of the season.

1956

This could have been a thrilling three-way championship battle between Fangio and Moss in the Mercedes, with Moss no longer willing to be the second driver, as well as Alberto Ascari in the Lancia. The Lancia may have been the fastest car in 1956 but would likely have struggled for reliability, and so I am going to give this championship to Fangio, who was still better than Moss at this time, with Ascari finishing third but leading the most laps. Ferrari would likely have had another awful season like 1955 with a difficult car, but I have decided to assume that Mercedes and Lancia pull out anyway at the end of the year and Ferrari get to use Lancia’s cars for 1957.

1957

The season goes very much like it did in real life, with Fangio winning his fourth title in a Maserati before retiring, ahead of Moss in a Vanwall, but Ascari finishes third in a Lancia-Ferrari.

1958

Ferrari would now have had many options for potential drivers to race with in 1958, including Ascari, Hawthorn, Collins, Musso and Castellotti. But whoever his teammates were, it seems likely that Ascari would have outperformed Hawthorn in 1958 and taken his fourth title, beating the Vanwall of Stirling Moss due to his superior reliability. I have then assumed that Ascari retires at the end of the season. Collins and Musso would still be alive and are potential Ferrari drivers in 1959, but Hawthorn would have retired anyway due to health problems.

1959

Vanwall withdrew at the end of 1958 due to Stuart Lewis-Evans’ death, so like with Mercedes and Lancia, I have decided to assume they would have stayed for one further season before leaving the series. Given they had arguably the fastest car in 1958 and the best driver, I think Vanwall would have sorted out their reliability, and Stirling Moss would have claimed his first championship in 1959, with Tony Brooks possibly finishing second. If Vanwall had withdrawn, then this title could belong to Brooks in a Ferrari because he would not have pitted in the Sebring finale and would have won the race and the title.

1960

With Vanwall now gone, and Ferrari having a poor season, the most significant change for 1960 is that Stirling Moss in a Rob Walker Lotus would not have been injured at Spa and could have raced the full season. He was clearly faster than Brabham, but I think the greater consistency and reliability of the Cooper would have allowed Brabham to take his first world championship.

1961

The year that the shark-nose Ferrari dominated the championship could have gone to any one of many Ferrari drivers in this parallel universe, with Phil Hill perhaps one of the least likely. Had they survived, the car could have been driven by Peter Collins, Luigi Musso or Eugenio Castellotti, while Wolfgang von Trips also might have beaten Hill to the title if it weren’t for his fatal accident. I think Luigi Musso is very likely to have been a Ferrari driver at this time and could have beaten any of the rest in 1961, assuming he had matured more by this point, and so I will choose him as the likely world champion of 1961.

1962

Had he not been seriously injured at Goodwood, Stirling Moss would have raced a privateer Ferrari in 1962, still with the Rob Walker team. With this, I think he would have been far more competitive than the works Ferraris, and would have made it a three-way fight for the championship with Graham Hill’s BRM and Jim Clark’s Lotus, but the car probably wasn’t good enough for him to beat Hill to the championship.

1963

Moss again may have been more competitive than the works Ferraris, and a contender for second overall, but would have no chance of beating Jim Clark in the dominant Lotus.

1964

This season was a three-way battle between Clark of Lotus, Hill of BRM and John Surtees in the Ferrari, ultimately won by Surtees. As I consider Moss to be a stronger driver than Surtees, even accounting for his lack of a works drive I think 1964 would have been his second world championship season.

1965

Like 1963, this title can only go to the Lotus of Jim Clark, who put in arguably the strongest season in Formula 1 history after dominating despite not having a dominant car. I think this would have been a natural point for Moss to retire from Formula 1 as the 1.5 litre era ended.

1966

If it weren’t for his injuries, perhaps John Surtees would have stayed with Ferrari for the full season as he would not have been blocked from competing in sports cars, which caused the dispute. And I think with a full season at Ferrari, Surtees would have beaten Jack Brabham to the championship so would still have been the only champion on two and four wheels.

1967

Just as it went in real life, the reliability of Brabham allows Denny Hulme to take his first championship ahead of the speed of Lotus. Maybe Jack Brabham would have concentrated more on driving than running the team if he hadn’t won the year before, but I still think Hulme was as good as him in 1967 and could have won the title.

1968

After a comfortable victory in the season opener in Kyalami, Jim Clark would surely have won his third championship in 1968 had he not been killed at Hockenheim, with Graham Hill finishing second.

1969

The Lotus may have been unreliable, but I think Jim Clark would have scored a lot more points had he remained with the team in 1969 than Rindt or Hill did and would have taken the title to Jackie Stewart, but while it would have been much closer and a thrilling battle between two of the greats, the overall superiority of the Matra means I think Stewart would still have won his first championship.

1970

With the new Lotus more competitive in 1970, it is likely to have been a battle for the championship between Clark and Rindt, and again I think Clark would still have been the stronger driver and would have won his fourth championship. But I will assume that Clark leaves Lotus and retires at the end of the season as he did seem likely to depart the team at some point and it is difficult to know where he would have gone instead. If he had stayed at Lotus, I think he would have taken two more titles in 1972 and 1973.

1971

Just like the real season, a walkover for Jackie Stewart and Tyrrell.

1972

With the Lotus 72, Emerson Fittipaldi would have a championship battle with Jochen Rindt, still at Lotus, on his hands, and with Rindt more experienced by this point I think he would have beaten Fittipaldi to the championship which he lost in 1970.

1973

With no space at Lotus for Peterson, it is a battle between Fittipaldi and Rindt for Lotus and Stewart and Cevert for Tyrrell. While Rindt at this point would likely have been a stronger driver than either Fittipaldi or Peterson, I am not convinced he could have beaten Stewart, by far the most complete driver of the era, to the championship.

1974

The dangers of motor racing undoubtably contributed to Stewart’s retirement at the end of 1973, and had he stayed with the team he probably would have taken a fourth title in 1974. But it seemed as though Stewart wanted to step aside anyway by this point and so I think Cevert would have led the Tyrrell team, and being a stronger driver at this stage than Jody Scheckter, won his first championship in 1974.

1975

But the Tyrrell team was not competitive enough in 1975 for Cevert to take another title, and Niki Lauda would likely have won this season just like he did in the real championship.

1976

The thrilling battle of Hunt vs Lauda closed up because of Lauda’s accident at the Nurburgring, but without the injuries sustained, he would probably have won this championship fairly comfortably from Hunt and Cevert.

1977

Another championship for Niki Lauda with Ferrari. Perhaps he would have stayed with the team in 1978 had he not been injured on the Nurburgring. James Hunt would have had another strong season with McLaren but fallen short of title honours, perhaps making him the greatest driver never to win a championship.

1978

Even with Lauda driving for Ferrari, they were not competitive enough to deny Mario Andretti his championship for Lotus in 1978 ahead of Ronnie Peterson, who would have completed the season and made his intended switch to McLaren for 1979. Meanwhile Carlos Pace is likely to still be racing for Brabham and could have developed into a very strong driver by this stage.

1979

Ferrari had the strongest car again with Jody Scheckter taking the championship, but if Niki Lauda was still racing for Ferrari, I think he would have won this title instead ahead of Gilles Villeneuve with Scheckter not getting to drive for Ferrari.

1980

A battle between Williams and Brabham, but in this alternate universe it could have been with different drivers. Carlos Pace is likely to have been leading the Brabham team, and been a stronger driver than the inexperienced Nelson Piquet at this time who is still a likely teammate for him. Tony Brise also had outpaced Jones in their early years and so might have been signed for Williams instead. Ultimately, I don’t think peak Brise would have been better than Jones who was the best in the world at this time, but he might have got the opportunity instead due to his stronger performances in the past and so I think Brise would have won the 1980 championship with Williams, while Jones would forever have been a talent wasted in uncompetitive cars.

1981

Once again, it is Williams vs Brabham, but assuming Brise had the same bad luck that befell Jones, I think Carlos Pace could have won this title ahead of Nelson Piquet courtesy of his greater experience meaning he didn’t make so many mistakes.

1982

Tony Brise may not have retired at the end of 1981 as Alan Jones did, leaving Keke Rosberg to wait for Carlos Reutemann to retire two races later before getting his chance at Williams alongside Brise. But neither would have been able to beat the Ferraris to the title if Gilles Villeneuve and Didier Pironi had raced the full season, having the best car in 1982, and I think this title goes the way of Villeneuve.

1983

By now, Piquet would probably be the stronger driver at Brabham than Carlos Pace, but I think the Ferrari was still best car in 1983 and, had Gilles Villeneuve still been driving it, he would have taken his second consecutive championship.

1984

Assuming Niki Lauda still wanted to return to Formula 1 despite having four championships in this alternate universe, he once again edges out Alain Prost for the championship, although Prost was the stronger McLaren driver in 1984. Lauda therefore has five titles and is, at this stage, the most successful driver in Formula 1 history. Villeneuve finishes third overall for Ferrari.

1985

Alain Prost’s season performance to win his first title was one of the strongest in F1 history, and the Ferrari was probably the best car over the course of the season. As a result, I think with Villeneuve as their lead driver, he would have been beaten and Villeneuve would have taken his third title. Gilles Villeneuve may have been erratic in his early years, but he had all the skills required to be one of the greatest of all time and I think he would have realised that potential by 1985.

1986-93

However, despite this, I don’t think there would have been another opportunity for Villeneuve to win a championship, because he wouldn’t have driven a title-winning car again. While he would have become extremely good, I still don’t think he would have been as good as Senna or Prost and so wouldn’t have been signed by McLaren. I think all of these eight titles would have gone exactly how they did in real life, although this version of events where the drivers are safe might have given Prost more of an edge over Senna in their battle for supremacy. Two drivers killed at the start of this period who might have had great success are Stefan Bellof and Elio de Angelis, but in such a competitive era it is unlikely that either would have raced a car good enough to be world champion, unless one of them had signed for Williams instead of Mansell in 1991 and then won in the FW14B the following year.

1994

Ayrton Senna finally got to drive for Williams in 1994 and, although Schumacher was 30 points ahead of him after Imola, I think Senna still would have won the title had he survived because Damon Hill ended up missing out by just one point. Schumacher was given many significant penalties during the season, generally over the top because his Benetton was probably illegal but couldn’t be proven as such, and I think this would be enough to give Senna the edge.

1995

After the bizarre season of 1994, this is the only real opportunity where Schumacher and Senna could have had a proper championship battle in practically equal cars, and would have been a battle for the ages. Although Schumacher won comfortably against Hill and Coulthard who made mistakes, Senna would have been a far more formidable opponent, and given Schumacher’s own tendency to be error prone, I think Senna would have beaten him to the title in 1995, although they surely would have been involved in incidents being arguably the two most aggressive drivers in history.

1996-97

With Ayrton Senna driving for Williams, who had the best car in both seasons, it is hard to argue with him claiming two more championships to bring his total to seven before retiring, assuming he had still won three with McLaren.

1998-present

After this, it is likely that all the rest of the seasons would have gone the same way as they did in reality. Perhaps Robert Kubica or Jules Bianchi could have won races with Ferrari but neither seemed like likely title contenders. Lewis Hamilton still wins seven championships.

 

Final championship totals:

Ayrton Senna – 7. (1988, 1990, 1991, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997)

Lewis Hamilton – 7. (2008, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020)

Niki Lauda – 5. (1975, 1976, 1977, 1979, 1984)

Michael Schumacher – 5. (2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004)

Alberto Ascari – 4. (1951, 1952, 1953, 1958)

Juan Manuel Fangio – 4. (1954, 1955, 1956, 1957)

Jim Clark – 4. (1963, 1965, 1968, 1970)

Sebastian Vettel – 4. (2010, 2011, 2012, 2013)

Jackie Stewart – 3. (1969, 1971, 1973)

Gilles Villeneuve – 3. (1982, 1983, 1985)

Alain Prost – 3. (1986, 1989, 1993)

Stirling Moss – 2. (1959, 1964)

Mika Hakkinen – 2. (1998, 1999)

Fernando Alonso – 2. (2005, 2006)

Max Verstappen – 2. (2021, 2022)

Jean-Pierre Wimille – 1. (1950)

Jack Brabham – 1. (1960)

Luigi Musso – 1. (1961)

Graham Hill – 1. (1962)

John Surtees – 1. (1966)

Denny Hulme – 1. (1967)

Jochen Rindt – 1. (1972)

Francois Cevert – 1. (1974)

Mario Andretti – 1. (1978)

Tony Brise – 1. (1980)

Carlos Pace – 1. (1981)

Nelson Piquet – 1. (1987)

Nigel Mansell – 1. (1992)

Kimi Raikkonen – 1. (2007)

Jenson Button – 1. (2009)

Nico Rosberg – 1. (2016)

 

I'm not sure this list of champions really reflects the ability of the drivers more accurately than the real list. Five championships particularly seems to flatter Lauda, and is perhaps reflective of the comparatively weaker opposition he faced. I would be interested to know what other people think of my scenario. What seasons would have gone differently, in your opinion?



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#2 lustigson

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Posted 13 March 2023 - 18:36

I have a soft spot for alternative Formula One history (see reasons below), so I will be reading this with much interest.

#3 Zmeej

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Posted 13 March 2023 - 19:54

F1Frog :wave:

 

Great OP :up:

 

Clearly, you put a lot of thought and work into it. :stoned:

 

As lustigon sez, gotta read it and chew...


Edited by Zmeej, 13 March 2023 - 19:54.


#4 SenorSjon

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Posted 13 March 2023 - 20:08

I doubt 94/95 would have gone to Senna. The gap was quite big and I doubt Schumacher would be banned for 25% of the races with a competing Senna. In 1995, the Benetton with Schumacher, now with Renault V10, would have been unstoppable.

#5 Dan333SP

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Posted 13 March 2023 - 20:22

It’s all hypothetical but I don’t necessarily see Clark retiring after 1970. He would have been 34 at the time, I think he could have easily gotten a couple of early 70s titles.

#6 DeKnyff

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Posted 13 March 2023 - 20:30

Sorry, I don’t see the point in fantasizing about deceased drivers, which is the only thing you do. Seems bad taste to me.

#7 Sterzo

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Posted 13 March 2023 - 20:41

F1Frog, if I may pick a nit (it's a hobby), Lancia effectively went bust. That's why they pulled out, and (IIRC) Fiat funded the transfer of the cars to Ferrari. The loss of Ascari was not the reason for their withdrawal.



#8 aportinga

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Posted 13 March 2023 - 21:00

Schumacher was nibbling at Senna's toes in 1992/1993. 

 

Senna's heart was not in it in 1994. The penalties Schumacher got were MASSIVE and he would have been well ahead of Hill. He would have no doubt been ahead of Senna as well. The Benetton was a better car - legal or not. 1995 the gap was even bigger - so it makes no sense to think that Senna would have won that year as well.

 

My guess is that Senna would have retired at the end of 1994 - his head was not in it and he knew Schumacher was the real deal - going back to 1992/93 that was clear.

 

A more realistic alternative would have been Alain Prost with 8 WDC - as he would have capitalized more if they did not have to drop races back in the day.


Edited by aportinga, 13 March 2023 - 21:02.


#9 PlatenGlass

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Posted 13 March 2023 - 21:35

I doubt 94/95 would have gone to Senna. The gap was quite big and I doubt Schumacher would be banned for 25% of the races with a competing Senna. In 1995, the Benetton with Schumacher, now with Renault V10, would have been unstoppable.

 

It's difficult to say. I've been through the 1994 scenario before with various assumptions, and it can play out differently. Basically, the Williams was probably the better car overall from mid-season onwards, and Senna would have probably taken most of the wins over that period. A lot of it comes down to reliability. Mansell/Coulthard had much worse reliability than Hill. So do we give Senna Mansell/Coulthard's reliability (as they took his car), Hill's (as the reliability of the "number 1" car) or an average of the two? And we would have to assume Schumacher doesn't get all his bans and disqualifications, or Senna walks it.

 

In 1995, the Williams was probably the quicker car overall, but less reliable. But then a lot of it will come down to exactly what reliability we decide Senna gets, and at which circuits.



#10 PlatenGlass

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Posted 13 March 2023 - 21:36

To pick on one thing that stood out at me, I don't think the Ferrari was overall better than the McLaren in 1985. It completely fell apart towards the end of the season. Went from a frontrunner to a heap of rubbish.



#11 eab

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Posted 13 March 2023 - 22:21

A more realistic alternative would have been Alain Prost with 8 WDC - as he would have capitalized more if they did not have to drop races back in the day.

How do you see Prost realistically jump from 4 to 8?

On the 'drop races' in general, that was an intrinsic part of the scoring system, not some kind of crude, rudimentary leftover of subsidiary matter, acting like an appendix hanging aside the 'real' points system. It was an integral part of it.



#12 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 09:04

I doubt 94/95 would have gone to Senna. The gap was quite big and I doubt Schumacher would be banned for 25% of the races with a competing Senna. In 1995, the Benetton with Schumacher, now with Renault V10, would have been unstoppable.


*Sigh*

Firstly, Schumacher was banned for two of sixteen races, that’s not 25%.

He was banned for his antics in the warmup lap at Silverstone, antics which he played against Senna in Brazil and got away with. So there’s no reason to assume he might not have tried that again. Benetton (not just Schumacher, but Verstsppen too) were disqualified from Silverstone for their handling of the penalty.

The technical disqualification at Spa for plank wear was independent.

It’s entirely reasonable to assume similar events, especially Spa, could have happened if Senna was still there.

#13 messy

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 09:30

I think this starts out quite interesting, in an era when drivers were killed in or before their prime with such regularity- but the problem is, it inevitably descends into a flight of fancy based on not very much because there's no way for us to ever know how many titles x driver would have won had they lived.

Personally, I think Schumacher would still have taken the baton from Senna, I think largely the top drivers of the 70s would still have been the top drivers of the 70s whether people like Clark had lived or not and ditto the 80s and Villeneuve. It doesn't do much for the romanticism of it but drivers get better with every passing generation and someone who's showing brilliance in one era won't necessarily be as brilliant in the next expecially given they'll also be ten years older by that point. Some drivers buck that, like Hamilton, but usually helped out by a seriously good car (ducks). I dunno. I've thought a few times about the "what if Senna lived" thing and think that one's a bit different because at the moment he died he wasn't on the cusp, he was right there leading from pole, as he had been regularly for the last six years. Its not much of a stretch to think he would have taken another title or two but I do think the changing of the guard to Schumacher would have happened regardless.

#14 OO7

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 09:36

I doubt 94/95 would have gone to Senna. The gap was quite big and I doubt Schumacher would be banned for 25% of the races with a competing Senna. In 1995, the Benetton with Schumacher, now with Renault V10, would have been unstoppable.

Given that Damon had only 7 points after three races (23 behind Michael) and that season went down to the wire, I think Senna would've been in with a shot.  1995 I'd give to Ayrton.  Damon underperformed that year.



#15 JG

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 10:27

Why would Williams keep Senna so long? Known for making a point that the car is more important than the driver, it's unlikely Senna would be at Williams during the last part of the 90s.



#16 Beri

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 10:31

I doubt 94/95 would have gone to Senna. The gap was quite big and I doubt Schumacher would be banned for 25% of the races with a competing Senna. In 1995, the Benetton with Schumacher, now with Renault V10, would have been unstoppable.

 

1994, like the OP said, would have seen Senna edging it close. Just like Hill did. But with Senna the superior driver, I can see him nicking it from Schumacher.

1995 saw, in the real universe, Hill being a fragile driver. Whereas Senna would likely not have driven the car beyond its capabilities. I would like to think that 1995 also went to Senna. Just like 1996 and 1997 would before retiring or perhaps handing it a shot at Ferrari for his last hurrah.



#17 BRG

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:05

Do injuries occurring before F1 count?  If these can be discounted too, then we need to wonder where a fully fit Johnny Herbert would fit in.  I think he would have given Schumacher a far harder time.  He was considered a real future champion before the F3000 crash.  And then there is Stephen South who lost a leg in F2 and ended his career but looked like a super talent similar to Brise or Pace.   



#18 cjm321190

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:10

Love these topics. I still think Schumacher would have got 6 titles as 1999 would have been his. Mika 1 WDC. If you believe Mika dropped the ball because he was only fighting Irvine so performance waned then maybe Mika 2 titles.

#19 cjm321190

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:13

F1Frogs work performance review will be hilarious. First question? Why do you think you performance has slipped over the last weeks. Enter exhibit A. 🤣

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#20 Collombin

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:16

Do injuries occurring before F1 count? 

If they are removed then instead of (apparently) Scheckter in 1974 we would most likely have Birrell in the Tyrrell (hey, that even rhymes. I'm a poet and I didn't realise).



#21 Cornholio

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:25

*Sigh*

Firstly, Schumacher was banned for two of sixteen races, that’s not 25%.

He was banned for his antics in the warmup lap at Silverstone, antics which he played against Senna in Brazil and got away with. So there’s no reason to assume he might not have tried that again. Benetton (not just Schumacher, but Verstsppen too) were disqualified from Silverstone for their handling of the penalty.

The technical disqualification at Spa for plank wear was independent.

It’s entirely reasonable to assume similar events, especially Spa, could have happened if Senna was still there.

 

Then again - as far as I'm aware bottoming/low ride height was never considered to be a factor in Ratzenberger's accident, so, I mean I guess if the alternate scenario is Senna surviving the Imola crash or just not having it at all - but there's at least a chance that Schumacher doesn't have a plank to wear down in that case.



#22 Myrvold

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 12:38

1998-present

After this, it is likely that all the rest of the seasons would have gone the same way as they did in reality. Perhaps Robert Kubica or Jules Bianchi could have won races with Ferrari but neither seemed like likely title contenders. Lewis Hamilton still wins seven championships.

 

And here comes my problem when I do these fantasies, or play manager-games, ooor seasons in e.g Grand Prix 3 (yes... I still do :p)

 

It's likely that Bernie would've "forced" in Villeneuve to F1, as CART was seen as a challenger, and especially with the the Villeneuve-name, it would be good for F1 to "steal" him from the US (Though, with Gilles surviving, JV might never even done CART and gone through the ranks exclusively in Europe?).

However, as we know that Hill was highly rated by Newey, and with Senna in Williams, Hill not taking a title in 94 or 95 wouldn't meant that he'd not get a new contract. He'd probably be a gentleman, a good tester and a solid 2nd driver, and being kept on.

So Bernie would've done his work to get Villeneuve somewhere else. Most likely to Ferrari due to Gilles.

With JV in Ferrari, would Schumacher go to Ferrari? Seems unlikely, but maybe he does. Where does Coulthard fit in when he doesn't get the chance at Williams? Do Schumacher go to McLaren - Mercedes instead, does that mean Häkkinen takes no titles? 

Or if Schumacher goes to Ferrari, doesn't injure himself at Silverstone 1999, does Häkkinen still take that title?

 

What about an uninjured Karl Wendlinger. Mercedes junior, was seen as a good F1 talent, Sauber got Mercedes. Would Wendlinger follow Mercedes to McLaren for 1995, and if so, would they still push for a WDC in the team, and would they get rid of Häkkinen or Wendlinger to get Schumacher?



#23 NewMrMe

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 13:07

Interesting, but I think trying to do the whole history of F1 based on what ifs throws up too many variables and there are too many what ifs that haven't been considered.

 

The other problem is the knock on effects of accidents. In several cases an accident created a vacancy that was a driver's entry to F1. If you remove accidents then several drivers route into F1 would not have happened, including some champions. Of course in the case of top drivers they probably would have found another way in, but they probably wouldn't have been in the same place at the same time as when they started winning.



#24 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 13:08

*Sigh*

Firstly, Schumacher was banned for two of sixteen races, that’s not 25%.

He was banned for his antics in the warmup lap at Silverstone, antics which he played against Senna in Brazil and got away with. So there’s no reason to assume he might not have tried that again. Benetton (not just Schumacher, but Verstsppen too) were disqualified from Silverstone for their handling of the penalty.

The technical disqualification at Spa for plank wear was independent.

It’s entirely reasonable to assume similar events, especially Spa, could have happened if Senna was still there.

 

He was banned for 2 and DSQed 2 times. That is 4/16 = 25% of the season. Never seen before and after again. And still Hill didn't take it.

 

Spa would have never been thought about if the fatalities of Imola didn't happen. Seeing FIA was on a stampede against the new kids on the block, it was a very harsh penalty. The cause was clear to see for everyone and he was leading the field by a mile already.

If Senna had survived Imola 1994, he would have been 30 points behind with 13 races to go. It is very hard to predict how that would have panned out, including the black flag in Silverstone.

 

Don't forget, Senna usually had a couple of races a season he would throw away with unforced errors. So gifting him those seasons is a bit steep, especially with the Renault (class of the field) powering both teams in 1995. 


Edited by SenorSjon, 14 March 2023 - 13:29.


#25 DeKnyff

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 13:52

And why only drivers?

 

What if Chapman had lived and he had found a new winning trick? What if Dino Ferrari had lived and inherited the Scuderia? What if Bruce McLaren had lived and had kept the ownership of the team? What if Jean Terramorsi had lived and had been in command of Renault in 1977?

 

What if Steve Jobs had lived and had decided to bankroll Andretti for his F1 bid?

 

And what if Charlie Whiting had lived and Hamilton had won the 2021 Championship, would Verstappen had grown tired of Red Bull and made a bombshell move to Ferrari, with what Pérez would have been the 2022 Champion?

 

You see, speculation is free.

 

To start with, motorsports were utterly dangerous until the eighties. If it had been a safe sport, sure more people would have joined and then, maybe, there would have been other Fangios, Clarks or Laudas. You simply can't tell "what if they hadn't died" because, unfortunately, deadly accidents were part of the game and only a selected few were able to deal with the risk. That's why, IMO, to fantasize about an hypothetical career of the deceased drivers is a lack of respect: they were great champions, in the first place, because they courageous enough to take the risk of death and race to the limit.

 

Best tribute you can make to fallen drivers is to let them rest in peace and praise the great achievements they had in life.


Edited by DeKnyff, 14 March 2023 - 13:59.


#26 LittleChris

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 14:00

If Gachot hadn't injured the taxi driver with his girlfriend's Mace and Mercedes then chucked £100k Jordans way would Schumacher have got an F1 drive ? He was rated in sports cars but from memory not seen as the next big thing.

#27 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 14:12

Why would Williams keep Senna so long? Known for making a point that the car is more important than the driver, it's unlikely Senna would be at Williams during the last part of the 90s.


Williams kept drivers as long as they delivered and both sides were happy. If Senna wanted to be there, I can’t imagine Williams would not want to keep him.

#28 Cornholio

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 14:17

If Gachot hadn't injured the taxi driver with his girlfriend's Mace and Mercedes then chucked £100k Jordans way would Schumacher have got an F1 drive ? He was rated in sports cars but from memory not seen as the next big thing.

 

My best guess is he'd have gotten the Leyton House/March gig that the next Merc junior to enter F1 Wendlinger got at the end of that year and into 1992 (if Wendlinger or indeed Frentzen was seen as Mercedes' best F1 prospect mid-91, surely it would have been them pushed for the Jordan seat), sending him on a pathway to at the very least Sauber in 1993, impressing enough along the way to eventually make it as he did, I reckon. Maybe he's not in a position to win titles as early as 94/95, but he could always have made the same Sauber->Benetton leap that Lehto made in real life, or perhaps found himself in a Merc-powered, Newey-designed McLaren later that decade...



#29 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 14:22

He was banned for 2 and DSQed 2 times. That is 4/16 = 25% of the season. Never seen before and after again.


It’s a basic distortion of the facts that you’re perpetuating. Drivers have been disqualified on technicalities on many occasions over the years. Teams have been disqualified for breaking the rules over the years. Drivers have received race bans, including harsher ones than two races, on many occasions.

Saying he was banned for a quarter of the season is a blatant lie, used to further an agenda. Please stop perpetuating it.

#30 piszkosfred

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 14:25

In my alternate universe:

 

1990 - Senna isn't taking out intentionally Prost at the 1st corner in Suzuka, Prost wins both races and becomes Ferrari's first WC since 1979. (Which he and Ferrari deserved and they had the package to do it IMO)


Edited by piszkosfred, 14 March 2023 - 14:27.


#31 Beri

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 14:33

Williams kept drivers as long as they delivered and both sides were happy. If Senna wanted to be there, I can’t imagine Williams would not want to keep him.


And let's not forget; Williams really wanted Senna. The resigning of Mansell was more born out of the fact that Boutsen didn't perform and other drivers weren't available. And the signing of Hill was due to Senna not being able to join in 1993.

#32 Beri

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 14:39

It’s a basic distortion of the facts that you’re perpetuating. Drivers have been disqualified on technicalities on many occasions over the years. Teams have been disqualified for breaking the rules over the years. Drivers have received race bans, including harsher ones than two races, on many occasions.
Saying he was banned for a quarter of the season is a blatant lie, used to further an agenda. Please stop perpetuating it.


Despite you are right in the literal sense of the word, I do get what was said and I agree with that. Schumacher was excluded from 2 races he was also banned from 2 races. Which does add up to 25% of the races in that light where he hasn't scored results.

#33 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 14:47

Despite you are right in the literal sense of the word, I do get what was said and I agree with that. Schumacher was excluded from 2 races he was also banned from 2 races. Which does add up to 25% of the races in that light where he hasn't scored results.


Then his DNFs at Hockenheim and Adelaide should be included too.

#34 Beri

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 14:54

Well that wasn't because of he was taken out of a race or him being excluded from one.

As said; I do get you as you are right in the literal sense of the word. But let's be fair and lets say that you did understand what the intention of said post by SenorSjon was.

#35 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 15:19

It’s a basic distortion of the facts that you’re perpetuating. Drivers have been disqualified on technicalities on many occasions over the years. Teams have been disqualified for breaking the rules over the years. Drivers have received race bans, including harsher ones than two races, on many occasions.

Saying he was banned for a quarter of the season is a blatant lie, used to further an agenda. Please stop perpetuating it.

 

Which agenda would that be? Beri explains my intentions perfectly fine. Yes, his Silverstone ban was his own doing, I just wondered if he would do the same to Senna as he did to Hill on that formation lap. I don't think so and Senna wouldn't readily allow it. So then he wouldn't have got the penalty and later black flag, his Silverstone result (2nd) would have stood. Yes, it was idiotic and would have saved a lot of harm to his season.



#36 PayasYouRace

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 15:55

Which agenda would that be? Beri explains my intentions perfectly fine. Yes, his Silverstone ban was his own doing, I just wondered if he would do the same to Senna as he did to Hill on that formation lap. I don't think so and Senna wouldn't readily allow it. So then he wouldn't have got the penalty and later black flag, his Silverstone result (2nd) would have stood. Yes, it was idiotic and would have saved a lot of harm to his season.


He literally did the same to Senna in Brazil, only nobody noticed and he got away with it.

#37 lustigson

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 18:22

Do injuries occurring before F1 count? 

 

If they do, then Lehto would've ran the full 1994, postponing a certain J.F. Verstappen's debut by at least a year. Because of the latter not begin thrown in at the deep end, he develops throughout a decent career with teams like Simtek, and Arrows, is a race winner and an outside bet for the 1999 WDC with Jordan, but his career eventually dies down. Overall Verstappen is satisfied with his achievements, though, and sends his son Max to Leuven University to study General Engineering & Technology, after which he becomes the youngest F1 race engineer at Red Bull Racing, working with driver Carlos Sainz, jr.


Edited by lustigson, 14 March 2023 - 18:24.


#38 Spillage

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 21:28

Interesting enough counter-factual, although it's obviously all pretty wild speculation. It's possibly a little presumptuous about Jim Clark, who was only 32 when he died in 1968 and likely could have gone on much later than 1970.

I also strongly suspect that Jackie Stewart, who retired at 34 as the world's top driver, would have gone on for longer if the associated risks weren't so enormous.

Then there are a lot of guys who had injuries too early into their careers to make a proper assessment. Kubica looked every bit as impressive as Vettel and Hamilton when he had his accident, for example, but there's no way of knowing if he could have won a title. Then you have guys like Bellof or Peter Arundell who looked very impressive but had their bad crashes before we'd even seen half of what they could do.

Edited by Spillage, 14 March 2023 - 21:33.


#39 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 21:32

And why only drivers?

What if Chapman had lived and he had found a new winning trick? What if Dino Ferrari had lived and inherited the Scuderia? What if Bruce McLaren had lived and had kept the ownership of the team? What if Jean Terramorsi had lived and had been in command of Renault in 1977?

What if Steve Jobs had lived and had decided to bankroll Andretti for his F1 bid?

And what if Charlie Whiting had lived and Hamilton had won the 2021 Championship, would Verstappen had grown tired of Red Bull and made a bombshell move to Ferrari, with what Pérez would have been the 2022 Champion?

You see, speculation is free.

To start with, motorsports were utterly dangerous until the eighties. If it had been a safe sport, sure more people would have joined and then, maybe, there would have been other Fangios, Clarks or Laudas. You simply can't tell "what if they hadn't died" because, unfortunately, deadly accidents were part of the game and only a selected few were able to deal with the risk. That's why, IMO, to fantasize about an hypothetical career of the deceased drivers is a lack of respect: they were great champions, in the first place, because they courageous enough to take the risk of death and race to the limit.

Best tribute you can make to fallen drivers is to let them rest in peace and praise the great achievements they had in life.


https://en.m.wikiped...y_Postlethwaite

What could have been.

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#40 Spillage

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 21:37

Do injuries occurring before F1 count? If these can be discounted too, then we need to wonder where a fully fit Johnny Herbert would fit in. I think he would have given Schumacher a far harder time. He was considered a real future champion before the F3000 crash. And then there is Stephen South who lost a leg in F2 and ended his career but looked like a super talent similar to Brise or Pace.

Of course, no injuries might mean no Benetton seat for Schumacher to begin with, since he took Roberto Moreno's seat after Moreno inherited it from Nannini. Nannini was performing well before that so Flavio might not have been so keen to bin his #2 when Schumacher burst onto the scene.

#41 Viryfan

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 22:37

Of course, no injuries might mean no Benetton seat for Schumacher to begin with, since he took Roberto Moreno's seat after Moreno inherited it from Nannini. Nannini was performing well before that so Flavio might not have been so keen to bin his #2 when Schumacher burst onto the scene.


Also Prost might've stayed with Mclaren through 1981 and 1982 if he had not been injured in the Mclaren for his rookie year.

#42 Jerem

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 23:39

Very interesting and creative thread. I would add that, if we discount injuries, Schumacher would most likely have won the WDC in 1999.

Now imagine the converse: instead of cancelling all the deaths or serious injuries of F1 drivers, what if some drivers who did suffer some serious accidents but recovered could instead never go back to racing?

For example, imagine that Mika Häkkinen's career ends with his Adelaide accident in 1995. Jan Magnussen gets the McLaren drive for 1996 and becomes a multiple race winner. Arguably Schumacher wins in 1998 and Irvine in 1999. Nick Heidfeld drives for McLaren from 2002 while Räikkönen stays a few more years at Sauber with Massa and joins Ferrari alongside Schumacher in 2005. That era being Kimi's prime, he beats Alonso and Schumacher to the title in 2006. But Schumacher does not have to make room for him in 2007, so he does not retire, and that year sees a titanic fight between Schumacher and Räikkönen for Ferrari, and Alonso and Hamilton for McLaren. Michael wins the title and retires as a 9 times world champion and never comes back with Mercedes.



#43 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 23:41

In that storyline, Schumacher's career ended in 99. ;)

#44 Jerem

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 01:16

In that storyline, Schumacher's career ended in 99.  ;)

Yes that's also very possible. I didn't say every serious accident should be career-ending or we might not have any drivers left in 2023   ;)



#45 Gary Davies

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 08:20

Good work, F1 Frog, a lot of work obviously went into your alternative history. I shall read it with great interest. 



#46 sanat

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 08:31

Or if Schumacher goes to Ferrari, doesn't injure himself at Silverstone 1999, does Häkkinen still take that title?

Also, if Schumacher's engine doesn't blow up in Suzuka in 2006 and if Schumacher continues with Ferrari for two more seasons, would Alonso, Kimi and Lewis still take their respective titles?



#47 Collombin

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 08:34

How about near misses becoming actual bad crashes? That idiotic priest gets mown down on the Hangar Straight and it affects the results of the men's Olympic marathon.

#48 Beri

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 08:39

If they do, then Lehto would've ran the full 1994, postponing a certain J.F. Verstappen's debut by at least a year. Because of the latter not begin thrown in at the deep end, he develops throughout a decent career with teams like Simtek, and Arrows, is a race winner and an outside bet for the 1999 WDC with Jordan, but his career eventually dies down. Overall Verstappen is satisfied with his achievements, though, and sends his son Max to Leuven University to study General Engineering & Technology, after which he becomes the youngest F1 race engineer at Red Bull Racing, working with driver Carlos Sainz, jr.


I like it.

Yet the universe for Verstappen Sr. would have been a drive in 1995 for McLaren (which was a card on the table back then) and thus preventing some young lad called Coulthard from joining that team in 1996. Verstappen Sr. would have had a serious shot at the championship in 1998, 1999 and 2000 and Coulthard would have had to settle for lesser teams because Hill was firmly in place at Williams and Villeneuve was inbound no matter what.

#49 lustigson

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 08:47

I like it.

Yet the universe for Verstappen Sr. would have been a drive in 1995 for McLaren (which was a card on the table back then) and thus preventing some young lad called Coulthard from joining that team in 1996. Verstappen Sr. would have had a serious shot at the championship in 1998, 1999 and 2000 and Coulthard would have had to settle for lesser teams because Hill was firmly in place at Williams and Villeneuve was inbound no matter what.

 

Oh, that's interesting! Was there indeed such an opportunity in place in our universe as well? I know Verstappen was in the frame for a test drive for Footwork/Arrows, McLaren as well Benetton for 1994, and he obviously chose the latter option. But a race driver for McLaren after his Benetton debut and Simtek adventure, is beyond my recollection. 



#50 dmj

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Posted 15 March 2023 - 09:27

If we count out injuries, then some other drivers should be given the credits they deserve. Not that any of it would be really on championship-winning level but it is worth mentioning.

Martin Brundle wasn’t less impressive than Bellof in their debut season but Bellof’s myth is busted due to his tragic death and Brundle is remembered as an average or slightly above average driver. Without his horrific injuries I see no reason why he wouldn’t develop into a regular racing winner.

Also, don’t forget that Felipe Massa developed into a formidable driver during 2008 – had he not been injured next year (never driving on the same level again) he might have been a title contender in Ferrari again. On the other side, without strict team orders, Alonso and him would take each other’s points and finish even further away from Vettel.