141 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

There's another joker in the pack here, instilled by the AC Milano's perennial offer of bonus appearance money to any Italian constructor introducing "a new design car" at their Italian Grand Prix.  I believe I am correct in recalling that Ferrari took the money in 1951 for the high-tailed camelli 375 variants - introduced there and in consequence probably stamped as '1' and '2'.  

 

The single-plug muletto was plainly identified as No 2 at the time of the British GP, and was then preferred by Ascari for his use in the following German GP.  BUT by the end of that season Ferrari had two No 2s in their armoury, the year-old muletto and, from Monza, the new-series camelli.

 

Just don't get too hung up on the naive modern concept of stamped numbers confirming certainty, even if they were noted in period by reliable observers, or survive as captured in readable form by contemporary photography.  

 

If this debate concerned 1958-59 Coopers - well...to believe car identities involve definitive chassis numbers is the sure and certain way to utter confusion...  

 

Didn't a former TNF regular, Michael Muller I believe, produce a very believable ID list of Ferrari single-seaters built and raced 1948-53(ish).  He had pursued the photo ID route and reached pretty convincing findings.  There was also British enthusiast Victor Pigott,  involved with the UK Ferrari Owners' Club, who published the results of his similar 375-series research in 1980s (?) FOC Bulletins.  

 

There were at least three of us exploring the conundrums (?conundra?) in parallel.  

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 24 February 2024 - 21:39.

[Henk Vasmel]

I've been investigating the subsequent history of Tipo 375/6, the car sold to Chico Landi. For starters, I found this:

 

1958:

07/09: Interlagos 500km: Fritz d'Orey; 1st. (Barberis is 3rd but in what car? and Pascoal Nastromagario is 4th-what car?- Looks like a 375 with a V8 engine, race #88. Not a Scaglieti re-body.  Landi is 5th in another Ferrari Corvette!)

 

I also found that Jose Froilan Gonzales raced a "Ferrari/Corvette" in South America 1957-1961. With this:

 

1957:

Argentinas 500 Millas; J-F. Gonzales; Result Unknown.

 

1958:

14/05: 500 mile Rafaela: Jose Froilan Gonzales; 1st. (Noted as a Ferrari-Corvette). 

Buenos Aires GP: J-F. Gonzales; 6th.

Argentinas 500 Millas: J-F. Gonzales; 1st.

Interlagos: J-F. Gonzales; 1st.

Torneio Triangular: J-F. Gonzales; 1st.

 

1959.

Argentinas 500 Millas: J-F. Gonzales; 1st.

Rafaela 500 Millas: J-F. Gonzales; 1st.

 

1960.

Buenos Aires GP: J-F Gonzales; DNF.

Montevideo: J-F Gonzales; 1st.

Torneio Triangular: J-F Gonzales;1st.

Buenos Aires: J-F Gonzales;1st. 

 

I also found the following results for "Ferrari-Corvettes" at this time, can anyone please elucidate on which cars are which?

 

1958:

Mil Milhas Brasileirs: F. Landi/Jose Gimenez Lopes; 2nd.

Barre da Tijuca: F. Landi, 1st.

 

1960:

Interlagos 500Km: F. Landi/Nivola; 2nd.

Interlagos: Ciro Cayres: 1st.

Brasilia: C. Cayres;  1st.

Campeonado Paulista: C. Cayres; 1st.

 

1961:

??-01: Interlagos; C. Cayres; 1st.

Torneio Sul Americano: C. Cayres; 1st.

Argentinas 500 Miles: Alberto Rodriguez-Larreta; 2nd.

 

1962:

Interlagos 500km: Antonio Carlos Aguiar; RU.

 

It certainly appears that besides 375/6 and /7, the 1950 Tipo 340 possibly also went to S. America. Certainly, that's what the van der Lof family think it is....

1958 Mil Milhas Brasileirs: F. Landi/Jose Gimenez Lopes; 2nd.

- I have this as a Chevrolet Carretera

1960 Interlagos 500Km: F. Landi/Nivola; 2nd.

- I have a Ferrari 250 TR. Landi/Della Porta

1960 Interlagos: Ciro Cayres: 1st.

- I have a Maserati And the next two as well, just as the January 61 race. the Torneio Sul American is probably the same race.

1962: Interlagos 500km: Antonio Carlos Aguiar; RU.

- For this I have Ferrari 375-50/02. I have him on more races in this period. In one of them there is a 0104 ?? (two question marks mean that there was a suggestion somewhere, and I guessed the chassis number from that.

[Writer2]

Thanks Henk.  The results I quoted all stated: "Ferrari-Corvette."

Put that aside for the moment and the 1962 Interlagos car driven by Antonio Carlos Aguiar. If this is 375-50-02 then that is the British GP winning car...

As far as I'm aware, 0104 is the second car built in 1948, 04C and was sold to Chico Landi in 1949.

 

Doug Nye: If indeed Ferrari did number their 1951 Italian GP cars as "1" and "2", than this makes Tipo 375/51/7, number 2 and that is frequently the number associated with the car when sold to Rosier, which makes it all the more likely that, you are right again and that we have two Tipo 375/2s today.... 

Edited by Writer2, 25 February 2024 - 01:02.

[Writer2]

Doug Nye, again!   "Didn't a former TNF regular, Michael Muller I believe, produce a very believable ID list of Ferrari single-seaters built and raced 1948-53(ish).  He had pursued the photo ID route and reached pretty convincing findings.  There was also British enthusiast Victor Pigott,  involved with the UK Ferrari Owners' Club, who published the results of his similar 375-series research in 1980s (?) FOC Bulletins."

 

Yes, agreed. Michael Muller did a very good job.  He is to be commended.  I remember the name Victor Pigott from when I lived in England but don't recall his results published in the FOC Bulletins, (which I should!).

Edited by Writer2, 25 February 2024 - 01:03.

[DCapps]

Henk, I was specifically referring to the Ferraris in question here, not the entire spectrum of the chassis number cult and obsession.

Who decided or decides 375/1 is 375/1 and so forth...

 

Besides, there is a definite issue with how identity is conferred upon racing cars, which are subject to various wiles and whims of those dealing with them.

The inability of many in recent years  to grasp that tihs the case, yet another form of presentism, is typical of non- and ahistorical thinking. To be kind...

That, say, Maserati would deign to confer an identity to a racing machine based upon the engine being used is blasphemy of the basest sort since That Is Not How We Do It these days or not how I Think It Should Be Done.

 

The experiences I have had with Maserati and several others (Ferrari being one of them) regarding the issue of identiry has developed a certain cynicism and the realization that, alas, research has its limits when it comes to certain matters.

 

Not to mention that none of these supposedly pressing issues for those day meant diddley-squat to those in the trenches at the time in many if not most cases.

The racing world is either a bonanza of archival materials or a barren desert, usually somewhere in between. Not to mention the ever popular practice of creative provenance when a sell could be made or a sucker found.

 

As the Formula One Register realized early on, the artifacts, the individual machines, are the source of many mysteries and far more interesting than the drivers,...

 

Uniformity while desirable and possible with machines of recent years ignores the reality of how things were done is the past, often quite differently.

[Michael Ferner]

Henk, I was specifically referring to the Ferraris in question here, not the entire spectrum of the chassis number cult and obsession.

Who decided or decides 375/1 is 375/1 and so forth...

 

Besides, there is a definite issue with how identity is conferred upon racing cars, which are subject to various wiles and whims of those dealing with them.

The inability of many in recent years  to grasp that tihs the case, yet another form of presentism, is typical of non- and ahistorical thinking. To be kind...

That, say, Maserati would deign to confer an identity to a racing machine based upon the engine being used is blasphemy of the basest sort since That Is Not How We Do It these days or not how I Think It Should Be Done.

 

The experiences I have had with Maserati and several others (Ferrari being one of them) regarding the issue of identiry has developed a certain cynicism and the realization that, alas, research has its limits when it comes to certain matters.

 

Not to mention that none of these supposedly pressing issues for those day meant diddley-squat to those in the trenches at the time in many if not most cases.

The racing world is either a bonanza of archival materials or a barren desert, usually somewhere in between. Not to mention the ever popular practice of creative provenance when a sell could be made or a sucker found.

 

As the Formula One Register realized early on, the artifacts, the individual machines, are the source of many mysteries and far more interesting than the drivers,...

 

Uniformity while desirable and possible with machines of recent years ignores the reality of how things were done is the past, often quite differently.

 

Like

[O Volante]

A pleasure to see this topic back again! More than anything else, the displayed materials and observations bring back happy memories of some collaborative research done about 15 years ago! Yes, David McKinney and Michael Müller were deeply involved, also Adam Ferrington and some others

 

Not surprisingly, some of the questions brought up here concerned us already at that time. One point was simply what we were researching. Obviously it's not possible to construct reliable individual race records for the early monoposto Ferraris from printed sources. Fotos do not really solve the problem, as sufficently detailled pictures were not available in a number of situations when it mattered for serious louvre-counting. Definitely engines went in and out and pending on ocassion, some cars shifted from F1 or Libre to F2 and back. Engines and suspensions installed surely make a visible difference on fotos, but the "chassis", rather frames in their simplicity less so. And Gilco could easily supply a spare at any time ...

 

At one point in the individual histories of the various cars, however, there is invariably some certainity about their specifications. That was when a particular "unit" of engine, frame etc. passed to a private owner and these Ferrari sales were usually reported in some detail in contemporary publishing. During modern research on the surviving cars a number of original sales documents have come to light and became even known to the public. In general it emerges from these materials the customer monopostos were sold under their (probable) Team Ferrari s/n up to late 1949, but got special s/n from early 1950, probably after interference by Italian tax revenue. This is the V12 monoposto's approximate order of serial numbers:

 

125/166 SWB 216 cm (as apposed to 166 SC and MM)

02C under this number to Vandervell, later to Vallone as 0100

04C to AC Brasil as 0106

06C destroyed?

08C under this number to Sommer, later to AC Brasil as 0108

10C under this number to Whitehead, later to Ecurie Ecosse

12C to Scuderia Guastalla as 0112, later to Ecurie Rosier

01F to Sterzi, later to Staechlin as 0104

011F to AC Argentina

 

125/166 LWB 242 cm

C01 to Whitehead as 0114

C02 to Vandervell, later to Fischer with 212 engine as 0110?

013F to AC Argentina

 

166 LWB 232 cm

F2/50/1 to Scuderia Marzotto as 0118

F2/50/2 Prototype 500F2 as 0102?

F2/50/3 to Scuderia Marzotto as 0116

 

375 F1

C04 to Uruguay as 0566

chassis number unknown to Vandervell as 010

chassis number unknown rebuild as 375 Indy Mauro?

chassis number unknown rebuild as 375 Indy/4 Keck/Ball?

"375/1" to Landi

375/2 to Rosier

 

375 Indy

375 Indy/1 Ascari later to Chinetti as 0388

375 Indy/2 Grant Piston Ring Co/Parsons?

 

All other 1950s customer monoposto Ferraris are (or are based on) 4 or 6 cylinder cars.

 

Unfortunately this does not solve the riddle which 375 F1 was which!

 

A few closing remarks: at the Italian GP 1951 Landi practiced a 375 F1 but raced a two-litre car, apparently a prototype for the new F2 range. But for 1952 Landi neither got the car he practiced or raced at Monza for 1952, it seems. For the new season Brazilian President Getulio Vargas bought him rather one of the two camelli 375 F1s presented as new for the ACI's prize. Indeed, to think in this direction was originally inspired by a note in Mr. Nye's "Skullduggery" column many years ago, refering to Victor Pigott's observation to question the NZ car's claim to be Froilán González Silverstone winner. At least to me both 375 F1s raced for the first time by their respective new owners Landi and Rosier at Piriapilis in March 1952 are looking like that!

 

Well, for the period there are internal Ferrari race reports, and for some reason I have here a copy of No. 19 for 1951 on British Grand Prix. In this the "macchine" for both Ascari and Villoresi are given as "375 M", while González has a "375/2 S"...

 

Whatever that means for the claim to be the Silverstone winner, there is even a small chance it finally ended up in Froilán's hands! After retirement from European GP racing, González prepared a new start in South American single-seaters for 1957. When the Ferrari team arrived in Buenos Aires for the season-openers, they brought along an old F1 chassis from the era of the 4.5-litre engines. According to Froilán's autobiography ghosted by Roberto Carozzo, it had been used during 1952/1953 in F2, during 1954/1955 in the 2.5 litre Formula 1 and was now shortened 10 cm to a 2.22m wheelbase. In the Argentinian press it was refered as s/n 0482. Equipped with a Bernardo Perez prepared Corvette engine it started it's successful local career later in the year. Yes, I know Peter Whitehead's Ferrari for his southern hemisphere tours in 1955 and 1956 is known by the same number ...

Edited by O Volante, 25 February 2024 - 18:19.

[Writer2]

Hello O Volante and thank you very much for your comments.  Oddly enough, I have this weekend been going through South America race results from the mid-1950s to the early 1960s and was wondering what the number of the car raced by J-F Gonzales in S. America was. Thank you, that is an interesting car.

 

If you don't mind, I have some observations on your list that may, (or may not!), help:

 

125/166 SWB 216 cm (as apposed to 166 SC and MM)

02C under this number to Vandervell, later to Vallone as 0100

January, 1950: Back to the factory; Rebuilt to 166F2 spec.

According to Ferrari records, sold to Giovanni Bracco in March, 1950 as 0102. Sale number 51. (letter from Ferrari Classiche 2007).

 

04C to AC Brasil as 0106

1950: 

In the records of Napoleao Ribeiro the ex-Landi car appears with the customer monoposto private sale number 104, 

 

"104 (or possibly 0104) was the first Landi Ferrari, the tipo 166 FL." 

 

06C destroyed?

No. To Cortese/Tadini as a private sale number 106 in 1949. Then to Dick Merritt/Carl Bross in mid 1960s, then sold to Bardinon, France.

 

08C under this number to Sommer, later to AC Brasil as 0108

 

10C under this number to Whitehead, later to Ecurie Ecosse

Destroyed as the "Saltire Special."

 

12C to Scuderia Guastalla as 0112, later to Ecurie Rosier

Sold to Peter Staechelin, as 0104. Ecurie Espadon. Today with Chinetti family.

 

01F to Sterzi, renumbered to 011F to AC Argentina

 

125/166 LWB 242 cm

C01 to Whitehead as 0114

C02 to Vandervell, 

Became Thinwall Special 2 and 3. Dismantled 1952, stored, restored.

 

013F to AC Argentina

 

166 LWB 232 cm

F2/50/1 to Scuderia Marzotto as 0118.

As 0116.

F2/50/2 Prototype 500F2 as 0102?

1951: Sold to Marzotto. Private sale number 0120?

F2/50/3 to Scuderia Marzotto as 0116

As 0118.

Edited by Writer2, 26 February 2024 - 11:02.

[Doug Nye]

The 1951 'Autocourse' annual presented the following as the British GP Ferrari entry chassis serials, No 3 for Villoresi, No 4 for Ascari - and No 2 for Gonzalez.  Of course the compilers probably drew upon The Bod's 'Motor Sport' report for that information.

 

Just as light relief from this sea of verbiage, here are some contemporary 1951 Ferrari 375 shots from or via our GP Library collection:

 

 

Ascari - chief mechanic Stefano Meazza and mechanic Emer (or Ener?) Vecchi attending.

 

 

Winner Gonzalez in the muletto - left side.

 

 

Winner Gonzalez - right side. 12-plug engine - note evenly spaced exhaust primaries.

 

 

Frustrated imminent World Champion - Ascari - 24-plug engine - note staggered exhaust primaries.

 

 

1951 German GP - Ascari in the Silverstone-winning muletto he requested as his mount for the Nurburgring.

 

 

Villoresi in the Karussel at the Nurburgring.

 

 

Early season 1951 - Villoresi in his allocated car at the Syracuse GP.

 

 

Gonzalez in his winning 375 at the 1951 Pescara GP - Geoff Goddard when he titled this scan using the 'Gonzales' misspelling...  An easy error and pretty generally used in period.

 

 

Very rare colour photo of Villoresi in 'No 3' in the Silverstone pits 1951 - shot by 'John Gilbert' reputedly an ex-German PoW who settled in England upon his release in 1945.  Mechanic Vecchi listening to Villoresi's observations...

 

Photos from/via The GP Library

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 26 February 2024 - 08:51.

[Michael Ferner]

Great pictures, Doug, thanks for posting!

 

 

A pleasure to see this topic back again! More than anything else, the displayed materials and observations bring back happy memories of some collaborative research done about 15 years ago! Yes, David McKinney and Michael Müller were deeply involved, also Adam Ferrington and some others

Yes, great memories - I was also very briefly involved in the very early stages, along with Egon Thurner, as I recall - whatever happened to him, I wonder

[jtremlett]

Not wishing to derail the topic too much but what are the wing things behind the front wheels of the Nurburging cars?  I can't imagine they were for downforce.  Stone guards?

[Michael Ferner]

Generally called "Splash guards" for rainy races, but I guess they were good for stones, too!

[Writer2]

Thanks Doug,  Great photos! very much shows the difference between a single and a twin plug per cylinder Tipo 375.

[Roger Clark]

Generally called "Splash guards" for rainy races, but I guess they were good for stones, too!

Also very useful for hiding where it's a 12- or 24-plug engine.

[O Volante]

Many thanks for corrections and updates, Writer!

 

My particular interest in these Ferraris has always been their career in South American, in original guise, as sports cars or as Mecanica Nacional cars. How far is your research in this direction?

[Writer2]

Hello O Volante,  I've just spent the last three days looking at the Brazilian, (and others!) drivers and their cars. There must have been quite  few Ferraris that received Chevrolet V8s in the 1950s, besides 375s, including sportscars.  

 

Where possible, I searched for photos of the cars.We know that Fritz D'Orey drove 375 #6 and Paschoal Nastromagario bought an engine/gearboxless "1952" single seater Ferrari and had a Chevrolet V8 installed. Race number 88. He campaigned this from 1958 to 1961. A 375? Other Brazilian drivers, who raced monoposto "Ferrari/Corvettes" in South/Central America were:

 

Camille Christofaro, one race in 1957.

Christian Heins. One race 1960.

Ciro Cayres, race number 44, "Ferrari/Corvette"1957-1960.

Carlos Danvila. race number ? "Ferrari/Corvette"1957-1961.(From Uruguay-Reportedly a Ferrari 500).

Oscar-Maria "Mocha"Gonzalez, race number? "Ferrari/Corvette"1959-1961.(From Uruguay-reportedly a genuine Tipo 375).

Antonio Carlos Aguiar, race number 7, "Ferrari/Corvette"1961-1966.

 

There is a list of the cars and races on: http://www.bandeiraq...stromagario.htm

 

Perhaps you can shed some light on which were Tipo 375s? Obviously, from the above list one can see Aguilar's car was probably raced by someone else in that list before him but that seems to show that there were at least two 375s in that part of the World at the same time.

[Writer2]

Doug,

 

As an aside to this subject, following on from your photos, "'John Gilbert' reputedly an ex-German PoW who settled in England upon his release in 1945." 20 years ago, I was told the story, by his Swiss widow, of a German Officer on the General Staff, who was captured by the British in 1945.  They kept him and fellow officers in a POW camp in Germany until 1948 when they became fed up at being kept away from home for so long.  They stole British soldier's uniforms and an ambulance and drove out of the camp. He finally did arrive home to Bavaria. 

[O Volante]

Hello Writer,

 

can be done ... To my best knowledge there were nine monoposto Ferraris with "local" racing careers in South America - that is excluding foreign visitors for the International races. Equally shared between three countries: for Argentina I have the two ACA 125/166 plus the Froilán Gonzalez car. Brazil gets the two ACB 125/166 plus the Landi 375. For Uruguay one 166F2, one 375 plus one 500 "Starlet". Caution! There are also a number of cars appearing very similar, some by chance, some unashamed replicas!!!

 

Well, with future publication in mind, perhaps it would be usefull if you let me have your email address ...

[Writer2]

Thank you O Volante.  My Email address is: john@johnstarkeycars.com.

[Jahn1234567890]

Besides, there is a definite issue with how identity is conferred upon racing cars, which are subject to various wiles and whims of those dealing with them.

The inability of many in recent years  to grasp that tihs the case, yet another form of presentism, is typical of non- and ahistorical thinking. To be kind...

That, say, Maserati would deign to confer an identity to a racing machine based upon the engine being used is blasphemy of the basest sort since That Is Not How We Do It these days or not how I Think It Should Be Done.

 

Sorry for going off-topic here, but I would like to ask which type's of Maserati you are referring to?

[Amorris]

I enjoyed the photos Doug posted, especially the image of Villoresi at the Karussel, with its unusual angle of a 375 and driver.

However, I wanted to comment on the colour photo of Villoresi in the pits at Silverstone. I reckon the car he is in, is 'no5' and not 'no3'.

'No5' differs from the two earlier '51 375s in that it has eleven louvred vents below the cockpit whereas the other two have ten. Also the the rear corner of the engine cover is rounded. The 'No3' and '4' have a square corner.

Oldracingcars have the correct number for this car at the Belgian GP with Taruffi(#12), and at the French GP with Gonzales(#14) and Ascari sharing the car. However, at the British GP it becomes 'no3'?

I couldn't find any images of no5 at Spa but there are a couple of clear pictures of it at Rheims, at motorsportimages.com.

Sorry about the rivet counting.

[Writer2]

Amorris:Don't apologise! All very necessary. Contributions all help in this thread.

[Writer2]

I've recently been researching Landi's first F1/F2/FL car, 104, which in Ferrari's employ was 1948 04C.

 

It now looks as if Landi had the car sent back to Ferrari for an overhaul in July 1951 and it was afterwards shipped back to Landi in Brazil.  When it was finally recovered by (who else? Colin Crabbe!), in the 1970s, it had lost its original and later (v8?), engine and Tony Merrick, who restored the car for its then owner, (who had been told that the car was number 106....) had to change the later engine mountings, to re-fit an original type Ferrari V12.

 

So it's more than probable that this car received a V8 and was raced in South America in the mid 1950s perhaps into the 1960s. Which Brazilian driver bought and raced this one? Or did Landi keep it as a "spare?" He had several Ferraris during this period, including a Monza and a Testa Rossa, as well as his 375 F1.

Edited by Writer2, 27 February 2024 - 17:54.

[DCapps]

Sorry for going off-topic here, but I would like to ask which type's of Maserati you are referring to?

 

At least up to the 250F...

[Jahn1234567890]

At least up to the 250F...

 

If you are referring to all Maserati’s up to the 250F than I’m sorry to say that Is a very ignorant statement. None of the factory documents of the cars up to the 4CLT, this includes all Voiturette and Grand Prix cars, point in such a direction. Even more so the building sheets of the relatively few cars that did have an engine change confirm these cars never ‘changed identify’ when the engine change happened and disprove such a theory.

 

While I have done quite a bit of research on the A6GCM and 250F as well I don’t feel I have done enough research to make such statements about these cars. But then again the experts on these cars, both David Mckinney and Barrie Hobkirk are sadly no longer around…

[DCapps]

If you are referring to all Maserati’s up to the 250F than I’m sorry to say that Is a very ignorant statement. None of the factory documents of the cars up to the 4CLT, this includes all Voiturette and Grand Prix cars, point in such a direction. Even more so the building sheets of the relatively few cars that did have an engine change confirm these cars never ‘changed identify’ when the engine change happened and disprove such a theory.

 

While I have done quite a bit of research on the A6GCM and 250F as well I don’t feel I have done enough research to make such statements about these cars. But then again the experts on these cars, both David Mckinney and Barrie Hobkirk are sadly no longer around…

 

Ignorant? Strong words and based upon what?. The again, I did work with David McKinney and Barrie Hobkirk as well as others (Trev Lister for one) along with having access to lots of material that was provided on top of what I found in my research. The facts developed led me to my interpretation. You may certainly disagree with me, of course, but don't ****ing dare to call me ignorant. 

[uechtel]

I can not imagine it has been a hard switch like from model line to another, rather a decade-long progress.

[Jahn1234567890]

Ignorant? Strong words and based upon what?. The again, I did work with David McKinney and Barrie Hobkirk as well as others (Trev Lister for one) along with having access to lots of material that was provided on top of what I found in my research. The facts developed led me to my interpretation. You may certainly disagree with me, of course, but don't ****ing dare to call me ignorant. 

 

Why such an aggressive response? I merely pointed out that if your statement refers to All Maserati's up to 250F, than I find that an ignorant statement. As I pointed out earlier none of the factory building sheets of both the Voiturette and Grand Prix cars up to the late 40s point in such a direction. Altough I should have stated this different in my previous post as of course none of the official 4CLT building sheets survived...

My point still stands. If you wish to make such a theory work you would have to disregard most of these building sheets. And that's only mention the building sheets. But as to your point we can always agree to disagree.

Edited by Jahn1234567890, 28 February 2024 - 16:33.

[DCapps]

Why such an aggressive response? I merely pointed out that if your statement refers to All Maserati's up to 250F, than I find that an ignorant statement. As I pointed out earlier none of the factory building sheets of both the Voiturette and Grand Prix cars up to the late 40s point in such a direction. Altough I should have stated this different in my previous post as of course none of the official 4CLT building sheets survived...

My point still stands. If you wish to make such a theory work you would have to disregard most of these building sheets. And that's only mention the building sheets. But as to your point we can always agree to disagree.

 

We certainly disagree. 

 

What makes you think that I did not look and look hard at the build sheets, the work sheets, shop records, even the carnets that exist? Or take a hard look at the historiography (such as it is...) of Maserati or ask questions, have discussions exchanges with any number of people on the issue of Maserati and Identity?

Or look the many and various offerings of Maserati production as well as what passes for race records in many instances for the marque? Not to mention pestering Barrie and David with questions and observations on the 250F series that didn't make sense if you only thought in terms of telaio/chassis as sole means for Identity for the cars. I set up a series of research questions and did the grunt work, aided by others who also provided queries and considerations, and went where the facts and the analysis sent me. Which, by the way, was not where I expected it to by any means. I then did a reset and examined the research, the analysis, and my interpretations several times, in grad part because there are those whose ability to "think outside the box" is limited to nonexistent. As Emerson noted, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds." Most the consistency on this and other topics is based upon simply accepting what they are told are told to accept. There are what appear to be anomalies in how Maserati assigned identity to various cars that can only be explained by it being the engine that is the means of Identity. This is very apparent in the 250F series and also in others. It is entirely possible that others may not think like you or others do. I was slow to accept where mu research sent me at first since, based upon how identity is usually assigned to a racing machine, that is the chassis, the identity assigned did not make sense. Only when Barries provided me the information regarding the engines being used did the pattern begin to emerge, although Michael Ferner had already suggest that possibility, which I had problems initially wrapping my head around. However, that was the key. Was Maserati consistent? Perhaps, but then again keep in mind that many looking the various materials were viewing it through a lens that tended to ignore the possibility that there another means assign identity. Now, I recently took another look at my 250F worksheets and realized that I could now see several items that required revision because they now made sense based upon the more recent analysis. While you might disagree with me and disagree with my interpretation, it is certainly not based upon any level of the ignorance that you suggest. There is always some level of the unknown in this sort of research because there are archival materials and records and paperwork that are either missing or just no longer in existence, Gone Forever, it seems. In all of this, I did not disregard the 4CLT etc information. Quite the contrary, the 4CLT was one of the many puzzles that eventually led to me the interpretation that I came to. I certainly did not start off with a preconceived notion regarding the engines as a possible means of assigning identity, I doubt that it even crossed my mind until emerged from the research, the analysis of that research, and rethinking my interpretation several times. 

 

All the above applies to the topic at hand. These folks are mulling over and thinking and questioning and examining the historiography (again, such as it is...) and analyzing what they have found, gain and again, and trying to develop some sort of interpretation of all of this they have in front of them. It is a messy, nuanced, perplexing, frustration, irritating, complex, and challenging process. I think that they are doing just great. For what little it might be worth these days, this is the sort of discussion that I had in mind when I created this forum almost a quarter century ago. This is a collaborative process that often produces more headaches than solutions at times, but at some point I think that they will eventually arrive at a point where we never would be without this messiness.

 

HDC

Edited by DCapps, 29 February 2024 - 03:15.

[Writer2]

DCapps: I completely agree.  Having been involved in racecars for nearly 40 years, and spent a considerable amount of time in various race shops in Britain and America, I soon came to realise that a lot of "Trurths/facts", generally accepted are not.  There has been so much changing of components over the years, some meant to improve a car's performance, some meant to cover up previous mistakes, that it takes quite some time to distinguish fact from fantasy.

 

Then there's the outright fake cars... Don't get me started...

Edited by Writer2, 29 February 2024 - 12:48.

[Jahn1234567890]

We certainly disagree. 

 

What makes you think that I did not look and look hard at the build sheets, the work sheets, shop records, even the carnets that exist? Or take a hard look at the historiography (such as it is...) of Maserati or ask questions, have discussions exchanges with any number of people on the issue of Maserati and Identity?

Or look the many and various offerings of Maserati production as well as what passes for race records in many instances for the marque? Not to mention pestering Barrie and David with questions and observations on the 250F series that didn't make sense if you only thought in terms of telaio/chassis as sole means for Identity for the cars. I set up a series of research questions and did the grunt work, aided by others who also provided queries and considerations, and went where the facts and the analysis sent me. Which, by the way, was not where I expected it to by any means. I then did a reset and examined the research, the analysis, and my interpretations several times, in grad part because there are those whose ability to "think outside the box" is limited to nonexistent. As Emerson noted, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds." Most the consistency on this and other topics is based upon simply accepting what they are told are told to accept. There are what appear to be anomalies in how Maserati assigned identity to various cars that can only be explained by it being the engine that is the means of Identity. This is very apparent in the 250F series and also in others. It is entirely possible that others may not think like you or others do. I was slow to accept where mu research sent me at first since, based upon how identity is usually assigned to a racing machine, that is the chassis, the identity assigned did not make sense. Only when Barries provided me the information regarding the engines being used did the pattern begin to emerge, although Michael Ferner had already suggest that possibility, which I had problems initially wrapping my head around. However, that was the key. Was Maserati consistent? Perhaps, but then again keep in mind that many looking the various materials were viewing it through a lens that tended to ignore the possibility that there another means assign identity. Now, I recently took another look at my 250F worksheets and realized that I could now see several items that required revision because they now made sense based upon the more recent analysis. While you might disagree with me and disagree with my interpretation, it is certainly not based upon any level of the ignorance that you suggest. There is always some level of the unknown in this sort of research because there are archival materials and records and paperwork that are either missing or just no longer in existence, Gone Forever, it seems. In all of this, I did not disregard the 4CLT etc information. Quite the contrary, the 4CLT was one of the many puzzles that eventually led to me the interpretation that I came to. I certainly did not start off with a preconceived notion regarding the engines as a possible means of assigning identity, I doubt that it even crossed my mind until emerged from the research, the analysis of that research, and rethinking my interpretation several times. 

 

All the above applies to the topic at hand. These folks are mulling over and thinking and questioning and examining the historiography (again, such as it is...) and analyzing what they have found, gain and again, and trying to develop some sort of interpretation of all of this they have in front of them. It is a messy, nuanced, perplexing, frustration, irritating, complex, and challenging process. I think that they are doing just great. For what little it might be worth these days, this is the sort of discussion that I had in mind when I created this forum almost a quarter century ago. This is a collaborative process that often produces more headaches than solutions at times, but at some point I think that they will eventually arrive at a point where we never would be without this messiness.

 

HDC

 

You are taking a few things out of context here. I never stated you did not have a look at the aforementioned documentation or did not do any research. That being said, to make your theory work you would have to disregard a significant portion of these documents.

 

As for me I am only talking about these documents up to 4CLT as most of my research is up to the start of the start of the F1 World Championship. Again for the 4CLT I did not imply you disregarded them in all of this. I simply stated they can be disregarded as far as the build sheets are concerned given that they are no longer around.

 

The whole point I’m making is your theory does not make sense at all if you apply to it to all Maserati’s up to the 250F. As for the 250F I’m sure you can apply your theory on them and make it work. That doesn’t say I agree with it but you could make it work on the 250F. This is simply not the case for the earlier cars like 4CS, 4CM, 6CM and so forth. The factory records of the earlier cars don’t point in a direction that the identities of these cars were based on what engine was fitted to it…

 

I do agree it’s a good thing to look critical at the information you have at hand. I think critical thinking is a necessity when dealing with history. As sometimes when very little facts are available it can be the only way forward. Other times some things will remain a mystery. New information, be it documents, images or whatever, can always change what was thought correct at an earlier stage.

 

That being said I think it’s best to leave this discussion as it is. As I don’t see any use going back and forth on this. I think neither of us anything to gain from that. Besides the fact that this discussion is off topic…

[VWV]

Regarding historical documents used in the motorsports/automotive industry, you need to place the document in the historical context of the time and place and it was created to determine how it authoritative it is. Are you saying the document/build sheet/carnet ect is gospel with no alternative motive? 

 

In the period we are discussing, 1930-1950's covers the Great Depression thru WW2 and the aftermath. Not exactly a prosperous time from an economic point of view and financial health from racing was always uncertain. Resources were an issue during this period and if you could cut costs, you did. In the design, productions and maintenance of the cars, is the record keeping an importance or are you just focusing on getting the car ready for the next race or for the customer to take delivery?  Follow the money if you want the true picture,

 

From a modern point of view, the re-interpretation of historical documents could be used to influence the value of vintage cars for sale/auction. Again follow the money.

 

I am not claiming to be an authoritative historian, just an amateur enthusiast. From what I have read over the last 30 plus years of following motorsports, it is quite clear that Italian record keeping should be taken with a suspicious eye.

Edited by VWV, 29 February 2024 - 14:59.

[DCapps]

You may ignore my ignorant observations, of course, but in this 1950/1951/1952+ timeframe, Ferrari as a marque was new.

While Enzo Ferrari and his Scuderia Ferrari may have been around for maybe two decades, outside Italy -- and only then within Italy within a small community -- scarcely anyone was aware of him.

I once observed that Ferrari's operation was pretty much that of an Italian hot rodder, which evoked screams and condemnation, of course.

Point is, Ferrari was a master bullshit artist, manipulator, performance artist, semi-grifter, and public relations con man par excellence. 

Keep in mind that Ferrari sub-contracted out no end of items for his cars, Gilco being one source for the chassis, for instance. 

Ferrari did not have its own foundry operations capable of major work -- such as engine blocks, etc -- until the mid-50s and not incidentally this when he pleaded that he was facing financial ruin...

Essentially, Ferrari was a master at creating a Brand and managed to pull it off.

Always keep in in that the Ferrari paperwork was something of an enigma at times because it was beneficial to do so, identities often have being two, three or even four-fold as necessary.

Why? Take a few minutes to consider the tax system in Italy at this time and...

Ferrari successfully conned -- excuse me, convinced -- playboy sportsmen on the international scene to give him money -- hard currency much preferred, thank you U$A -- to support the Brand.

Now, as suggested in the above comment, consider the contemporary scene involved within this perspective and your bumping into walls and being puzzled much makes more sense.

Yes, the Truth is probably out there somewhere, but not necessarily within reach.

You need to think more like historians and less like "auto racing historians" if you will. 

Question, review the literature (the historiography), research, analyze and develop the facts, then develop an interpretation of all that, then repeat as often as necessary before you reach at an interpretation that the facts lead you to.

Which is not necessarily where you might have thought or even considered.

Happens to scholarly historians all the time, so why would this sort of historical inquiry be any different?

 

Yes, I am old, cranky, not in the best of health, and increasingly inclined to be less tolerant of certain things than I used to be.

But, I could still conduct a research or historiography class today.

[Henk Vasmel]

I tried to make a list of the Ferrari 375 I have in South America after 1956. Pasting an Excel table did not work, so I tried with a picture. I hope this works.

 

 

This may come from several sources, so it is well possible that 50-02 and 0104 actually point to the same car.

Edited by Henk Vasmel, 29 February 2024 - 18:36.

[Henk Vasmel]

166 LWB 232 cm

F2/50/1 to Scuderia Marzotto as 0118

F2/50/2 Prototype 500F2 as 0102?

F2/50/3 to Scuderia Marzotto as 0116

 

Whatever that means for the claim to be the Silverstone winner, there is even a small chance it finally ended up in Froilán's hands! After retirement from European GP racing, González prepared a new start in South American single-seaters for 1957. When the Ferrari team arrived in Buenos Aires for the season-openers, they brought along an old F1 chassis from the era of the 4.5-litre engines. According to Froilán's autobiography ghosted by Roberto Carozzo, it had been used during 1952/1953 in F2, during 1954/1955 in the 2.5 litre Formula 1 and was now shortened 10 cm to a 2.22m wheelbase. In the Argentinian press it was refered as s/n 0482. Equipped with a Bernardo Perez prepared Corvette engine it started it's successful local career later in the year. Yes, I know Peter Whitehead's Ferrari for his southern hemisphere tours in 1955 and 1956 is known by the same number ...

Another candidate for J.F.'s car would be F2/50/2. I have 9 entries for him in South America, from 1958 through to 1960. Always with a Chevrolet (Corvette) engine. and in two cases called 166-2. The other ones are just plain Ferrari.

The shortened wheelbase also fits, as well as the possibility that F2/50/2 went on to be a 500. So, in my eye, worthy of further investigation.

[Writer2]

Jose Froian's car in South America was 0482 apparently, which had started life as a 1952 F2 car. See below, with thanks to Barchetta.cc for some of the information:

 

According to Froilán's autobiography ghosted by Roberto Carozzo, it had been used during 1952/1953 in F2, (Yes-F2 car, not 375), during 1954/1955 in the 2.5 litre Formula 1 and was now shortened 10 cm to a 2.22m wheelbase. In the Argentinian press it was referred as s/n 0482. Equipped with a Bernardo Perez prepared Corvette engine it started it's successful local career later in the year. Yes, I know Peter Whitehead's Ferrari for his southern hemisphere tours in 1955 and 1956 is known by the same number ..."

 

1952 - Scuderia Ferrari 500 F2 works racer

 

1954 - converted to 625 F1 specs

 

1954 - 735 sports engine installed s/n 5

 

1955 - Sold to Peter Nield Whitehead, GB

 

1956/nov/25

6th

Australian TT, 

Albert Park

Whitehead

#.

 

1957/jan/26

1st

Lady Wigram Trophy

Whitehead

#3

FY57

1957/feb/16

1st

Southland Road Race

Whitehead

 

 

Taken to Argentina in early 1957 with the Scuderia Ferrari. It had had 10 centimetres length removed from the chassis. At some point, it received a Chevrolet V8 engine. 

 

1957: Race number 49/1.

Argentinas 500 Millas; J-F. Gonzalez; Result Unknown.

 

1958:

14/05: 500 mile Rafaela: Jose Froilan González; 1st. (Noted as a Ferrari-Corvette). 

Buenos Aires GP: J-F. Gonzalez; 6th.

09/14/1958: Argentinas 500 Millas, Rafaele, Santa Fe: J-F. Gonzalez; 1st.

11/30/1958: Interlagos: J-F. Gonzalez, #49; 1st.

Torneio Triangular: J-F. Gonzalez; 1st.

 

1959.

01-18-1959: Il Fecha del Torneo: J-F Gonzalez; 1st. (Ferrari-Corvette).

03/01/1959: XV GP Ciudade de Buenos Aires: J-F Gonzalez; DNF.

09/06/1959: Argentinas 500 Millas, Rafaele, Santa Fe: J-F. Gonzalez; 1st.

Rafaela 500 Millas: J-F. Gonzalez; 1st.

 

1960.

10-11-01-1960: Interlagos 500Km:J-F Gonzalez; DNF.

Buenos Aires GP: J-F Gonzalez; 1st.

Buenos Aires GP: J-F Gonzalez; DNF.

05/15-1960: El Pinar, Montevideo: J-F Gonzalez; 1st.

Torneio Triangular: J-F Gonzalez;1st.

Buenos Aires: J-F Gonzalez;1st. 

 

1961.

01-15-1961: Interlagos: J-F Gonzalez; DNA.

04/16/1961: Parque Samiento, Cordoba: Roberto Mieres; 1st (ex-Gonzalez 375).

10/15/1961: XXIV 500 Miles, Argentina: Alberto Rodriguez Larreta: Pole, FL, 2ndOA. 

 

Sold to Bob Sutherland, USA.

 

2010: Last heard of in UK.

Edited by Writer2, 01 March 2024 - 14:30.

[DCapps]

There is a photograph of the Gonzalez Ferrari Chevrolet in the March 1960 issue of... Hot Rod Magazine (https://www.motortre...od/issue/571232).

[Michael Ferner]

UNFORTUNATELY CONTENT IS NOT AVAILABLE IN YOUR AREA

 

[Writer2]

Found it and printed it. Thanks DCapps, very good to get a detailed close up of that car. Certainly didn't start out as a Tipo 375.

[nexfast]

UNFORTUNATELY CONTENT IS NOT AVAILABLE IN YOUR AREA

 

 

Try here:

 

(1686) Pinterest

 

or here:

 

(1686) Pinterest

[Michael Ferner]

Ta!

 

[Writer2]

Thank  you to everyone who's replied to this inquiry, you've all been a great help...

 

I have another four queries, and these concern the earlier Ferrari Monopostos.

 

1948 02C/102, I have no information as to what happened to the car after Bracco last raced it on 15th August 1951.  I have a note that says: "1984: Discovered by Massimo Colombo." 

 

1948 04C/104: Early history up to Landi/Casini/Dacqua 1954. Then: "chassis 04C was found in Paris in 1964 by Bart Loyens on behalf of Stanley Nowak (US). Later that year it passed to Henry Austin Clark Jr (US), the owner of the Long Island Automotive Museum, and was being entered in concours events by James Clark, Henry's son, in 2006." (Barchetta.cc).

 

1949 08C/108: Works car. All good up to 1953. Last heard of in Uruguay with Pinheiro Pires.

 

1949 112: Was this really the car sold to Pierre Staechelin/Ecurie Espadon? There seems to be confusion between this number and 01F, (Which in original form was re-numbered as 011F, when sold to the Automobile Club of Argentina).

 

Any help gratefully appreciated...

Edited by Writer2, 03 April 2024 - 20:19.