70 replies to this topic

[StraightEdge]

This popped up today on PBS

https://www.pbs.org/...n-arms-industry

They can get rid of the Mazepins but can't stop selling to Russia

[loki]

It was through a middleman called Abamet not directly to the arms manufacturers.  I’d bet that’s common for more than just Haas.  Abamet isn’t sanctioned like the manufacturers or the Mazepins are.  The sanctions are more limited than some think.  Many of the companies that pulled out of Russia or stopped supplying did so on their own.  The bulk of the restrictions are in banking/finance, fossil fuels and oligarchs tied to Putin.  They couldn’t get paid through some Russian banks but they could if the shell company paid them from elsewhere.  It may not be breaking the sanction laws but it certainty flies in the face of the intent.  The gov would have to prove Haas knew for a fact the equipment was going to Russian arms manufacturers.  If they subpoena communications they may be able to do just that.  Depends on how clever Haas was.

[sanat]

**** Gene Haas and **** his F1 team.

[sanat]

It may not be breaking the sanction laws but it certainty flies in the face of the intent.  The gov would have to prove Haas knew for a fact the equipment was going to Russian arms manufacturers.  If they subpoena communications they may be able to do just that.  Depends on how clever Haas was.

*If sanctions enforcment is going to be anything like in the banking sector*, HAAS will have to prove that they have been proactively ensuring that no shipment of their products ends up in Russian hands.

 

The standard of proof in sanction evasion is different from criminal justice. The onus will be on HAAS to prove its innocence, not the other way around.

Edited by sanat, 15 March 2023 - 06:58.

[loki]

*If sanctions enforcment is going to be anything like in the banking sector*, HAAS will have to prove that they have been proactively ensuring that no shipment of their products ends up in Russian hands.

 

The standard of proof in sanction evasion is different from criminal justice. The onus will be on HAAS to prove its innocence, not the other way around.

A judge would have to decide to burden shift.  That’s far from a given.  The government will still have to state as to why they think the sanctions were violated.  Saying “we think you did it” isn’t enough.  They’ll likely have to say something like we know this is a straw buyer because of these specific facts.  Perhaps using the same info from the PBS piece.  Haas can then argue it’s not a straw buyer and/or show they did due diligence and made a good faith effort to believe they weren’t going to sell the equipment to arms manufacturers.  Selling the equipment into Russia is not an issue.  Selling it directly to the sanctioned party is the issue or having reason to believe there is a straw purchaser involved.  This may not even be charged.

[ANF]

We need a livery update from Haas. Some more red on the cars would help remind us of all the Ukrainians that are being killed by weapons manufactured by Russia on Haas machines.

[Seanspeed]

The gov would have to prove Haas knew for a fact the equipment was going to Russian arms manufacturers.  

Obviously we dont know enough info to say much for certain yet, but the way I've read it, it sounds like they knew full well that these machines were being made specifically for Russian arms production the entire time, and there's little reason they'd suddenly think their purposes would be different now.  Playing dumb about this seems like it'd be quite difficult if there's only really two degrees of purchases between Haas and the munitions plants.  

 

But none of that info is really backed up by anything except them saying so, so...yea, dunno yet.  

[potmotr]

Awkward. Hasn't Gene Haas already done jail time?

[eibyyz]

"Gene?  This is Michael.  JFC, don't play dumb.  'Michael who?' GMAFB.  Lissen--Michael Effing Andretti.  The guy who is going to buy your team. Price?  One dollar, and you're getting off cheap, pard.  I got Colton on a Citation X right now, put him in FP1s until I get there.  Yeah, I'll take your NASCAR team for another dollar. BTW, Tony says 'hi'."

[Widefoot2]

Awkward. Hasn't Gene Haas already done jail time?

Yes for a clumsy attempt at tax evasion. From Wiki:

 

 

Criminal tax evasion

On June 19, 2006, Haas was arrested by IRS agents for investigation of filing false tax returns, witness intimidation, and conspiracy.[21] Four others were indicted together with Haas, all of whom pleaded guilty.

Just before Haas's case was to go to trial, a plea agreement was reached, whereby he would plead guilty to felony conspiracy to commit tax evasion. He was sentenced to two years in prison and ordered to pay $75 million in restitution.

Haas was incarcerated beginning January 2008 and was released on probation on May 7, 2009, after serving 16 months of his two-year sentence.

[pup]

It was through a middleman called Abamet not directly to the arms manufacturers. 

Well, it's Russia's distributor for Haas, and Haas shipped the machines to Russia, so it would be a bit difficult for Haas to claim ignorance of where the machines were going.  

 

Legal?  Maybe.  Ethical?  Far, far from it.  Gene Haas isn't a good person, and it's a shame that there are good people in F1 who are associated with him.  

[potmotr]

Tons of Western IP goes into Russian weapons

[loki]

Well, it's Russia's distributor for Haas, and Haas shipped the machines to Russia, so it would be a bit difficult for Haas to claim ignorance of where the machines were going.  

 

Legal?  Maybe.  Ethical?  Far, far from it.  Gene Haas isn't a good person, and it's a shame that there are good people in F1 who are associated with him.  

The shipping into Russia still isn’t a problem today.  I would reckon far more than tooling manufacturers are providing equipment and materials to the arms effort.  As I said prior it flies in the face of the intent of the sanctions.  I’m in the “nobody sell anything to them” and make it a criminal penalty.  There isn’t enough support in Congress to make that happen.

 

Tons of Western IP goes into Russian weapons

Yep and that’s what we should be trying to stop.  It won’t stop them completely but slowing them down will cause them grief.  

[loki]

Obviously we dont know enough info to say much for certain yet, but the way I've read it, it sounds like they knew full well that these machines were being made specifically for Russian arms production the entire time, and there's little reason they'd suddenly think their purposes would be different now.  Playing dumb about this seems like it'd be quite difficult if there's only really two degrees of purchases between Haas and the munitions plants.  

 

But none of that info is really backed up by anything except them saying so, so...yea, dunno yet.  

 

Unlike the financial sector there are no due diligence laws on the books regulating how they do business. The sanctions are clear in what’s covered.  It’s direct sales to Federation of Russia arms manufacturers or anything or anyone in Crimea.  This was done under the Obama administration when Crimea was taken.  AFAIK it’s not part of the newer sanctions over the last year.

 

"Gene?  This is Michael.  JFC, don't play dumb.  'Michael who?' GMAFB.  Lissen--Michael Effing Andretti.  The guy who is going to buy your team. Price?  One dollar, and you're getting off cheap, pard.  I got Colton on a Citation X right now, put him in FP1s until I get there.  Yeah, I'll take your NASCAR team for another dollar. BTW, Tony says 'hi'."

 

[ring, ring]

Andretti Autosport, how may I direct your call?

 

[robo voice]

This is a collect call from the Danbury Correctional facility.  This call is monitored for security purposes.  Do you wish to accept this call?

 

 

 

A violation like this doesn’t get jail time, its a fine of up to three times the exported amount.

[YamahaV10]

**** Gene Haas and **** his F1 team.

Petronas is owned by the Malaysian state. Malaysia does not recognize any of the sanctions placed on Russia.

https://www.bloomber...tions-on-russia

[YamahaV10]

Tons of Western IP goes into Russian weapons

Nonsense. There's endless articles in the Western media making these claims. Just because Russia sources some things from the west , doesn't mean it is their only source. Russia makes its own jet engines , LCD screens, computers, nuclear power plants , carbon fiber, you name it.

[YamahaV10]

Tons of Western IP goes into Russian weapons

Nonsense. There's endless articles in the Western media making these claims. Just because Russia sources some things from the west , doesn't mean it is their only source. Russia makes its own jet engines , LCD screens, computers, nuclear power plants , carbon fiber, you name it.

[pup]

Nonsense. There's endless articles in the Western media making these claims. Just because Russia sources some things from the west , doesn't mean it is their only source. Russia makes its own jet engines , LCD screens, computers, nuclear power plants , carbon fiber, you name it.

That they may make any of those things would be an artifact of their former economy.  And it's unlikely that they would make any of them well nor without western components.  Russia has an extraction economy now, because extraction economies are what thugs can control.  Any other industries exist solely for national ego and/or opportunities for grift.  

 

FYI, probably the best source for what companies are still doing business there: https://som.yale.edu...sia-some-remain, which interestingly doesn't seem to include Haas.

Edited by pup, 15 March 2023 - 20:10.

[loki]

Nonsense. There's endless articles in the Western media making these claims. Just because Russia sources some things from the west , doesn't mean it is their only source. Russia makes its own jet engines , LCD screens, computers, nuclear power plants , carbon fiber, you name it.

They rely on others for core components like microprocessors and advanced technology components.  The Russian industrial heavy manufacturing complex is much stronger than the Russian technology complex.

[sanat]

Russia makes its own jet engines , LCD screens, computers, nuclear power plants , carbon fiber, you name it.

Yes, but using what machines? Russia’s machine-building industry is critically dependent on either imported machines or imported parts (for example, turbine blades for Russian nuclear reactors are imported. Source (in Russian):

 

https://cceis.hse.ru...р. 01 08 22.pdf

 

 

Sanction circumvention by such machine-building companies as HAAS is going to be disproportionately beneficial (compared to monetary value of parts/machines) to Russia, so hopefully US authorities will be enthusiastic with even relatively insignificant sanction breaches.

Edited by sanat, 15 March 2023 - 21:04.

[Seanspeed]

Unlike the financial sector there are no due diligence laws on the books regulating how they do business. The sanctions are clear in what’s covered.  It’s direct sales to Federation of Russia arms manufacturers or anything or anyone in Crimea.  This was done under the Obama administration when Crimea was taken.  AFAIK it’s not part of the newer sanctions over the last year.

Middleman companies are a common entity for many 'direct' transactions, especially internationally.  I'd say if they can discover that they knew that their machines were absolutely intended and known to go to arms manufacturers, this would be considered a 'direct' transaction.  

 

The sanctions would otherwise be completely and utterly useless, wouldn't they?  It wouldn't affect anything as any generic business could be used as a proxy middleman for a 'direct' purchase of equipment to their real source.  US government isn't the most effective thing in the world, but they aren't that stupid to let such a ridiculous loophole go uncovered. 

[FirstnameLastname]

Fokking idiots

[jcbc3]

Maybe the idiots are PBS:   https://www.autospor...tions/10444003/

 

Haas insists they have not shipped anything to Russia after March 2nd, 2022 and they have broken off contracts for 50 machines. Also state that they had informed PBS of this, but it was ignored by the news station.

[kumo7]

Isn't this a "parallel" business? is it Haas themselves doing the import export to and from Russia?

[ANF]

Maybe the idiots are PBS:   https://www.autospor...tions/10444003/
 
Haas insists they have not shipped anything to Russia after March 2nd, 2022 and they have broken off contracts for 50 machines. Also state that they had informed PBS of this, but it was ignored by the news station.

It wasn't ignored. The NewsHour report did present the statement and denial by Haas (at 4:45), but they said: "But our investigation puts that account into doubt. Customs records reviewed by 'NewsHour' show that shipments continued for months after Russia's invasion began. At least 18 shipments were made to Russia directly from Haas worth $2.8 million from March 4 through October of last year."

[TheWilliamzer]

They rely on others for core components like microprocessors and advanced technology components.  The Russian industrial heavy manufacturing complex is much stronger than the Russian technology complex.

 

The whole world  relies on Foxconn

[Zmeej]

Maybe the idiots are PBS:   https://www.autospor...tions/10444003/

 

Haas insists they have not shipped anything to Russia after March 2nd, 2022 and they have broken off contracts for 50 machines. Also state that they had informed PBS of this, but it was ignored by the news station.

 

Unfortunately, that article consists entirely of assertions made by Haas officials & reps, i.e. zero corroboration from any other source.

 

As for the bolded bit, company officials sending their denials to a news organization is hardly proof of anything, certainly not "idiocy" on the part of the latter. FWIW, if you read the item, you'd know that their denial was NOT "ignored by the news station," but is right there in the report:

 

Haas vice president Peter Zierhut denied the company was still doing business in Russia.

 

In a written statement, he told "NewsHour" that Haas had cut ties with its Russian distributor on March 3 of last year, just a week after Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine began.

 

The e-mail reads:

"Haas no longer supplies machines, replacement parts, or anything else to any companies in Russia. Statements to the contrary are false."

 

So, that's one lie we can be sure about, and a clumsy one at that.

 

That aside, PBS Newshour investigations are not conducted by idiots, nor are decisions to air the results of such investigations made by idiots, nor are they motivated by money.

 

In fact, for several decades, PBS Newshour and PBS Frontline have been the most reliably credible media operations in North America, possibly the world.

 

As such, if you'd rather believe Haas - that's your prerogative.

However, if we're gonna compare credibilities, it's not the party that comes out better.

Edited by Zmeej, 16 March 2023 - 16:40.

[jcbc3]

Unfortunately, that article consists entirely of assertions made by Haas officials & reps, i.e. zero corroboration from any other source.

 

As for the bolded bit, company officials sending their denials to a news organization is hardly proof of anything, certainly not "idiocy" on the part of the latter. FWIW, if you read the item, you'd know that their denial was NOT "ignored by the news station," but is right there in the report:

 

 

So, that's one lie we can be sure about, and a clumsy one at that.

 

That aside, PBS Newshour investigations are not conducted by idiots, nor are decisions to air the results of such investigations made by idiots, nor are they motivated by money.

 

In fact, for several decades, PBS Newshour and PBS Frontline have been the most reliably credible media operations in North America, possibly the world.

 

As such, if you'd rather believe Haas - that's your prerogative.

However, if we're gonna compare credibilities, it's not the party that comes out better.

 

Maybe you missed the first word in my post?

[Zmeej]

Nah - noticed “Maybe.”

 

Of course, could have softened the penultimate sentence to read “If anyone would rather … that’s their prerogative” ...

 

... but the rest of your sentence following the qualifier was sufficiently provocative for me to decide that a Palmolivoid softening of hands was not called for.

 

And yet, you're a good man, deserving of conciliatory gestures.

 

Peace?

Edited by Zmeej, 16 March 2023 - 17:21.

[jcbc3]

When I don't have knowledge of something either way I attempt to refrain from absolutes. In my original post you will see no value put on either viewpoint.

[Zmeej]

OK.

[jonpollak]

"Gene?  This is Michael.  JFC, don't play dumb.  'Michael who?' GMAFB.  Lissen--Michael Effing Andretti.  The guy who is going to buy your team. Price?  One dollar, and you're getting off cheap, pard.  I got Colton on a Citation X right now, put him in FP1s until I get there.  Yeah, I'll take your NASCAR team for another dollar. BTW, Tony says 'hi'."

This solves SO MANY problems !!

Well done eibyyz !

Jp

[eibyyz]

This solves SO MANY problems !!

Well done eibyyz !

Jp

 

(blush)  Aw shucks!

[Sam1]

Will be a possible way in or andretti if it does go sour for Hass this then maybe he can gun down the price and use the weapons saga for a fire sale.

Edited by Sam1, 16 March 2023 - 23:17.

[KWSN - DSM]

If Haas wants to sell it will be at premium price, not $1.

[Zmeej]

Of course Haas will want to sell at a premium price. The question is, would anyone buy it at that price, or haggle, or laugh?

[KWSN - DSM]

Of course Haas will want to sell at a premium price. The question is, would anyone buy it at that price, or haggle, or laugh?

 

Anyone who wants to enter F1 and who can not get an additional team added to the grid.

[loki]

The whole world  relies on Foxconn

Indeed but to make it not develop it.  That come places like Intel, Apple, Boeing, etc

[loki]

 

Will be a possible way in or andretti if it does go sour for Hass this then maybe he can gun down the price and use the weapons saga for a fire sale.

 

The maximum penalty is three times the amount of the transaction.  Basically an expensive traffic ticket.  They do over a billion a year in sales.  It may sting a bit but they’ll get out fairly unscathed.  

[BRG]

I think people need to remember that the Haas F1 team is a separate organisation form the Haas machine tool company even if it has the same owner.  If the Haas machine tools gets fined or otherwise penalised, it will not directly impact on the F1 team which did not break any sanctions (so far as we know!).

[BalanceUT]

It wasn't ignored. The NewsHour report did present the statement and denial by Haas (at 4:45), but they said: "But our investigation puts that account into doubt. Customs records reviewed by 'NewsHour' show that shipments continued for months after Russia's invasion began. At least 18 shipments were made to Russia directly from Haas worth $2.8 million from March 4 through October of last year."

I am quite annoyed that Haas appears to have played fast and loose with the sanctions rule.

 

But, it is also possible that both the statements on Haas's letters and the facts in the report by PBS are both true. Note that PBS says the evidence of shipping to Russia goes up through October. Note that Haas said 1) that it 'cut ties' with the distributor and 2) it no longer supplies tools or replacement parts to any companies in Russia. "Cut ties" sounds like a clear ending of relationship, but I doubt that it has any kind of legal definition that means it no longer communicates with the distributor. Haas doubtless had orders in the queue that needed fulfilment. But, they may also have ended any taking any new orders from sanctioned companies on March 3. Both the report (in facts) and the statement by Haas can be true if all they did was finish out those orders and it took until October to do that. Did that meet the intent of the sanctions, most would say no, but legally it might be defensible. PBS's report definitely makes it appear Haas is still doing business and their evidence is sufficiently supportive of that statement to let that stand. 

 

Please know that I am not supporting Haas's actions. IMO, the ethical and moral thing to do, and the thing that would have most clearly been legal is to have ended business and not shipped anything even if it was in the queue, taking whatever financial penalties imposed by their contract with their distributor in stride (or just ignored them, what's the distributor going to do? Sue them?).

[Zmeej]

Good & balanced post.

 

Siemens et alia have been playing fast and loose with sanctions directed at the RussFed via the gray areas of international law since 2014.

 

It seems to me that Haas's moves were more clumsy, particularly since their goofiness continued after the harsher sanctions regime descended.

I'm no legal eagle, but it seems to me that if your company has "orders in the queue," you can apply for some kinda compensation from the governments applying the sanctions, or insurance, but are in violation of the law if you proceed with "fulfillment."

 

That appears to be the case here.

 

The fact that they're lying in public gives this an additional odour.

 

***  

 

Recently came across a less-than-usually ideological, and thus informative & useful, thang on this subject (that is, not the Haas issue specifically, but sanctions in general, and still wider matters) by Yannis Varoufakis, briefly the minister of finance of Greece's Syriza government.

 

Will try to track down the link. Have it written down on some foolscap somewhere...

Edited by Zmeej, 17 March 2023 - 19:38.

[jjcale]

So what if Haas does business with Russia? ..... everyone still does business with Russia. 

 

Russia moved up from 11th to 9th biggest economy in the world in 2022 on a PPP basis according to the IMF ... how do you think that happened if basically everyone is not still doing business with Russia?

 

I know lot of people/entities who are doing more with Russia than before the sanctions .... and not sanctions busting ... official business, signed off by their banks, insurers and regulators. 

 

As I like to say .... there is media world - and there is real world. 

[jjcale]

Good & balanced post.

 

Siemens et alia have been playing fast and loose with sanctions directed at the RussFed via the gray areas of international law since 2014.

 

It seems to me that Haas's moves were more clumsy, particularly since their goofiness continued after the harsher sanctions regime descended.

I'm no legal eagle, but it seems to me that if your company has "orders in the queue," you can apply for some kinda compensation from the governments applying the sanctions, or insurance, but are in violation of the law if you proceed with "fulfillment."

 

That appears to be the case here.

 

The fact that they're lying in public gives this an additional odour.

 

***  

 

Recently came across a less-than-usually ideological, and thus informative & useful, thang on this subject (that is, not the Haas issue specifically, but sanctions in general, and still wider matters) by Yannis Varoufakis, briefly the minister of finance of Greece's Syriza government.

 

Will try to track down the link. Have it written down on some foolscap somewhere...

 

He may not be ideological in the same direction as you are ... but he is still a massive ideologue.

 

He does not live in the real world ... he is a dreamer.

 

Even if he agreed with me, I would not quote him.  

[jjcale]

It was through a middleman called Abamet not directly to the arms manufacturers.  I’d bet that’s common for more than just Haas.  Abamet isn’t sanctioned like the manufacturers or the Mazepins are.  The sanctions are more limited than some think.  Many of the companies that pulled out of Russia or stopped supplying did so on their own.  The bulk of the restrictions are in banking/finance, fossil fuels and oligarchs tied to Putin.  They couldn’t get paid through some Russian banks but they could if the shell company paid them from elsewhere.  It may not be breaking the sanction laws but it certainty flies in the face of the intent.  The gov would have to prove Haas knew for a fact the equipment was going to Russian arms manufacturers.  If they subpoena communications they may be able to do just that.  Depends on how clever Haas was.

 

The sanctions are more limited than most think ....

[jjcale]

Awkward. Hasn't Gene Haas already done jail time?

 

Yes - for tax fraud ... no one cared before .... but now ...  OMG - he does business with Russia!!!  ... lynch him!!!

[jjcale]

Petronas is owned by the Malaysian state. Malaysia does not recognize any of the sanctions placed on Russia.

https://www.bloomber...tions-on-russia

 

And the same goes for the vast majority of countries around the world ... 

[Zmeej]

Hmmm. Verily, a flood of effluent.

 

/A peak under the veil confirms it. /

Edited by Zmeej, 17 March 2023 - 20:48.

[loki]

So what if Haas does business with Russia? ..... everyone still does business with Russia. 

 

Russia moved up from 11th to 9th biggest economy in the world in 2022 on a PPP basis according to the IMF ... how do you think that happened if basically everyone is not still doing business with Russia?

 

I know lot of people/entities who are doing more with Russia than before the sanctions .... and not sanctions busting ... official business, signed off by their banks, insurers and regulators. 

 

As I like to say .... there is media world - and there is real world. 

It’s not doing business as a whole but doing business in a restricted sector.  The can sell the machines just not knowingly to munitions or arms manufacturers.

[Zmeej]

Everyone does not still do biz with the RussFed.

 

It is correctly identified by much of the world as a pariah state, from dealings with which all ethical investors and businesses have withdrawn or are withdrawing.

 

Yes, there are countries and corporations who continue to, but they will find it harder and harder to avoid this verdict: you have blood on your hands.

 

And then there’s Comrade Xi, colleague in genocide and authoritarian oppression.

And Ayatollah Khamenei - active enabler of the genocide in Ukraine, who thinks that having his own countrywomen raped and killed for having insufficiently draped themselves in cloth or dancing in the street is dandy.

Edited by Zmeej, 18 March 2023 - 04:30.