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The effects of re-introducing ground effects to F1 (merged)


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#351 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 26 July 2023 - 23:27

 The FIA never said it was a safety issue (that I recall)  It was just a knee jerk reaction. It was deemed to be breaking the spirit of the rules and that was that. 

the spirit or the letter? I thought flexing was banned the FiA can always add new tests to make sure components don't flex "too much".

 

EVERYONE last year clapped on the FiA being convinced Red Bull were the ones with the flexing floor. In reality they were not...



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#352 JimmyClark

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Posted 27 July 2023 - 06:21

It's really sad how this time last year we were saying we might finally be able to get rid of DRS as on track organic overtaking was so much better/easier, now it's not even on the agenda.

They really should have gone down the route of no rule change, but a maximum level of bouncing to be allowed otherwise the car would be disqualified. Meaning it's up to the teams to engineer it out.

#353 lewislorenzo

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Posted 27 July 2023 - 09:30

If I recall correctly, you 'liked' a post earlier in this thread suggesting the FIA should've simply permitted active suspension during the 2022 season.

With that in mind, I'd be curious how you'd feel about someone saying: "shame Mercedes can't make their car work without active suspension"

Can anyone actually explain why a flexible floor/plank is problematic? Does it present any hazards? If it enhances downforce, allows cars to run lower, and doesn't bring with it any safety concerns, I don't see why it should be barred. I'd like to give the teams more tools to optimize their cars, not fewer.


Active suspension would mean ALL CARS could be set up to be less stiff meaning they could ride kerbs better and also take different lines. This would improve racing…

#354 RedRabbit

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Posted 27 July 2023 - 10:03

My understanding is that flexible floors allowed the 'plank' to be effectively raised to reduce wear, and the plank is still needed to stop too much bottoming-out and possibly losing control. That was in addition to the porpoising problem.
Happy to be proved wrong though.


It actually had the opposite effect. The flexing solution Ferrari used, as I understand from a technical site, effectively turned the plank into a suspension component.

This made bottoming out less severe, bouncing off the track surface less severe and hitting kerbs was absorbed with the plank spring system which was hidden.

It was taking the regulation around flexing the tea tray to an extreme, and I can't see any negatives about it. It should probably make the cars a little safer, as any impacts with the ground get softened, instead of lurching the car upwards.

#355 RedRabbit

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Posted 27 July 2023 - 10:05

Didn't know where else to post this, but a comparison of the underfloor of the RB19, W14b and SF23.

https://twitter.com/...51ulYOlGdQ&s=19

#356 Boing Ball

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Posted 27 July 2023 - 16:18

What is the purpose of the plank with the current cars? I think it was originally introduced to avoid stalling the floor if it hit the ground and air flow below the car was disturbed or stopped. That should no longer be possible given the floors have those tunnels.



#357 ARTGP

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Posted 27 July 2023 - 16:19

What is the purpose of the plank with the current cars? I think it was originally introduced to avoid stalling the floor if it hit the ground and air flow below the car was disturbed or stopped. That should no longer be possible given the floors have those tunnels.

 

Currently it's probably more of a skid plate than anything. It protects the more expensive carbon floor from wear. Without the plank, teams would have to replace the entire floor at least once a weekend. 


Edited by ARTGP, 27 July 2023 - 16:20.


#358 pdac

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Posted 27 July 2023 - 22:16

What is the purpose of the plank with the current cars? I think it was originally introduced to avoid stalling the floor if it hit the ground and air flow below the car was disturbed or stopped. That should no longer be possible given the floors have those tunnels.

 

I thought it was originally introduced to police ride height. My understanding was that it was a plank of wood that would wear down when the car hit the ground. The plank thickness was measured after the event to determine how low the car was running. Of course, that may just be a story that I was told.


Edited by pdac, 27 July 2023 - 22:16.


#359 Grippy

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Posted 27 July 2023 - 22:39

I thought it was originally introduced to police ride height. My understanding was that it was a plank of wood that would wear down when the car hit the ground. The plank thickness was measured after the event to determine how low the car was running. Of course, that may just be a story that I was told.

It was introduced after Senna's fatal crash, as you say to police ride height, as it is believed (proved?) that following the safety car the tyres cooled which dropped his car so low that his tyres didn't have full grip causing him to go off.



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#360 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 28 July 2023 - 07:34

Active suspension would mean ALL CARS could be set up to be less stiff meaning they could ride kerbs better and also take different lines. This would improve racing…

You need to allow them all to fully redesign their concepts or some might never benefit as much as others from active suspension.

So it will never happen

#361 P123

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Posted 28 July 2023 - 08:03

It's really sad how this time last year we were saying we might finally be able to get rid of DRS as on track organic overtaking was so much better/easier, now it's not even on the agenda.

They really should have gone down the route of no rule change, but a maximum level of bouncing to be allowed otherwise the car would be disqualified. Meaning it's up to the teams to engineer it out.

 

Going by what we could see, I'd be very surprised that the takeaway anybody got with the new regulations was that there was a chance of being rid of DRS.  The new generation of cars provide such a negligible tow that DRS is an absolute necessity.  That was very clear last season.  A huge downside of the new ruleset. 



#362 Scotracer

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Posted 28 July 2023 - 09:26

They didn't even need to do that. The teams would and could have eliminated it themselves. Most already had.


It's absurd that teams like Mercedes, with their corporate situation, still weren't willing to protect the H&S of their drivers over performance.

#363 Flyhigh

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 01:00

I feel the racing from a drivers perspective was a little more interesting last year in the beginning, more slides, mistakes, opposite locks, etc. But it seems all the teams mastered rather quickly and we are back again at cars on rails, very little mistakes made and near perfection on anger as they were with full Aero downforce. 

I am starting to feel there is nothing that can be done currently with cars and technology development to make this perceived "perfection" of downforce and grip go away. Something like groove tyres which were criticized at the time 1997, but really threw a banana peel on the way of down force and grip, made cars hard to control with much less grip, you look at onboards from 1998 early 2000s it was common to see drivers make mistakes, lock up, opposite lock, full slides, etc. and still get the pole. Schumacher´s talent and car control during this time was something to see and to admire. 

Before grooved tyres, Aero was also not quite as good. Nowadays you look at pole positions and look like it was made by AI, can barely see where the driver took risks, where advantages came from, where he minimized mistakes or did trade offs for speed and what the different styles are. It was so easy to see who was driving even if they had the same helmet, the difference from a Schumacher to Irvine, Barrichello, Hakkinen, Alesi, Hill, Villenueve were all quite visible, where today if they all had the same helmets and car paint, would you be able to tell any differences? This is the essence of what I would love to see it back... 

I thought Ground effects could bring some of that 90s early 00s overall untidiness back, but not quite. Not sure if there is anything else that can be done, it seems car technology, auto motor is too advanced to make these cars really untidy again and still be F1 speed. 

I mean look at this pole Position from the best car by far that year, there is not one corner where he doesn´t have to correct the car and do opposite lock with the wheel constantly, nowadays for quite sometime most poles, I don´t ever see the driver have to correct the car even once the whole lap in anger..

https://www.youtube....h?v=1y6xQ00KuEw

 

       



#364 chrcol

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 01:36

If I understand you right I agree, Current tyres have a too high peak and a too low endurance.

 

So the high grip makes things like quali easier, and in races they often nowhere near the limit as they are "managing" the tyres.

 

With lack of refuelling it increases incentives for doing one stop races, which increases tyre management even more.

 

So less grippy tyres, make them more endurable, refuelling, no pitwall to driver aid's.

 

I would also allow DRS to be used anywhere to increase variability and driver skill in its use, but perhaps time limit its maximum time of use per race at least initially.  Remove blue flags, stop banning tech innovations unless they too dangerous, and stop with the large rule changes every X years, as a period of stability tends to close the gap from best team to second best, what happens at the back doesnt matter.

 

Other things to consider, replace FP with authorised on track testing, so no FP1, FP2, FP3, first time on the track is Q1.  After race is done, we then have two testing sessions at the circuit that replace FP1,2,3.  Imagine a race weekend where we dont already know lap times from FP, and teams havent tuned in their setup, would be awesome in my opinion.

 

All this creates less predictability, more chaos in driving the car, increase impact of driver skill, and we then start to see again what you witnessed in the past.


Edited by chrcol, 03 August 2023 - 01:37.


#365 ARTGP

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 01:55

The tire grip in the low speed is probably the biggest difference between your Hakkinen lap, and now.  


Edited by ARTGP, 03 August 2023 - 01:56.


#366 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 02:22

removing practice doesn't necessarily increase impact of driver skill.

It increases a lot the ability of a team to run lots of sims and design a car that's less peaky and with wider ranges for setup (even if slower).

 

i'd argue a driver with FPs can use their skill to tune the car - rather than the engineers doing that for them. 



#367 AustinF1

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 03:03

I think the move to mostly ground effect DF had a significant positive effect and F1 was definitely moving in the right direction until the decision was taken to wipe out much of that progress with a silly rule change. 

 

F1 gonna F1.



#368 ARTGP

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 03:03

Removing practice sessions is just a band-aid, not an actual solution. 

 

It's crazy how casually people imagine that F1 teams should not have practice sessions. Imagine watching any other professional sport where they are not allowed to practice....



#369 YamahaV10

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 03:46

I think the move to mostly ground effect DF had a significant positive effect and F1 was definitely moving in the right direction until the decision was taken to wipe out much of that progress with a silly rule change.

F1 gonna F1.


Yep. 2021 was good. But the first few races of 2022 between Max and Charles were better.

But then along came the technical directives. And it hasn't been the same since. The cars look extremely hard to set up.

The cars can follow better still. The concept was proven in the first half of 2022. They just have to fix it

#370 George Costanza

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 04:11

Very few drivers were quicker than Mika Hakkinen on a single lap... He was lightning fast when they car was to his liking. Similar to Kimi. Mika was IMHO faster on one lap than Michael was.

Race day was different story, but on a one lap shootout, Mika was the fastest driver.

Edited by George Costanza, 03 August 2023 - 04:15.


#371 Pingu Pi

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 06:51

I would imagine there's a large degree to do with data and the team's ability. These teams are able to finely tune these cars into a stable setup window.

There's just so much more available now. Like Alonso said in a Sky interview last weekend. Any team on this grid would beat his Renault team because back then they just weren't as professional or have the data they have now.

It's the sacrifice of being the 'pinnacle'... new regulations have a large element of teams getting used to the new cars and this was a dramatic switch that was clearly not as easy to predict car behaviour with the models they had. I would imagine there's similar but not as striking examples at the start of 2014 and 2009 alike although can't draw from memory?

#372 PayasYouRace

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 07:06

Thread already https://forums.autos...8#entry10333582

 

Threads merged.



#373 Beri

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 09:06

Just remove the upper body downforce. So remove the (front)wings. Cars will perhaps look prettier, like the Lotus below, and it will reduce front end grip and thus create a game of drivers rather than constructors.

 

1a7b9a48c76f25345c11911d089d39ce--austri



#374 Flyhigh

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 13:44

Is quite simple, I want to see slides, lock ups, opposite lock corrections in corners, I want to see the drivers tentative with the gas pedal in some corners with fear of sliding out, etc. There is simply none of it now, none. Look at all the poles from the cars this year, which are supposed to be on the limit "in anger" and show me where you see any of it, there is none.  

Where before there is no way you could do Pole position without several of those things...  Early last year, during winter testing I was quite hopeful as they were making a come back, but it was short lived. 

https://www.youtube....h?v=VE4U90IqE8g



#375 pdac

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 14:31

Just remove the upper body downforce. So remove the (front)wings. Cars will perhaps look prettier, like the Lotus below, and it will reduce front end grip and thus create a game of drivers rather than constructors.

 

1a7b9a48c76f25345c11911d089d39ce--austri

 

Also notice there, the difference between the front and rear tyres. Perhaps they should try small front tyres again.



#376 AustinF1

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Posted 03 August 2023 - 18:21

Is quite simple, I want to see slides, lock ups, opposite lock corrections in corners, I want to see the drivers tentative with the gas pedal in some corners with fear of sliding out, etc. There is simply none of it now, none. Look at all the poles from the cars this year, which are supposed to be on the limit "in anger" and show me where you see any of it, there is none.  

Where before there is no way you could do Pole position without several of those things...  Early last year, during winter testing I was quite hopeful as they were making a come back, but it was short lived. 

https://www.youtube....h?v=VE4U90IqE8g

Yep. It's amazing how easily they succombed to the cries coming mostly from one team.