375 replies to this topic

[Ijsman]

https://www.auto-mot...k-outwash-2023/

 

"OVERTAKING HARDER AGAIN: Less action due to aero tricks

Formula 1 and FIA ​​are alarmed. Driving behind and overtaking have become more difficult again. The drivers feel reminded of 2021. Did the regulations give the engineers too much freedom?"

 

 

 

 

 

The article talks about more difficulty to follow according to Verstappen, Leclerc and Sainz, plus the amount overtakes have decreased.

Seems like Liberty Media/FIA shot themselves in the foot. They should change the rules back to last year with a standard part in the rear suspension to fix the bouncing. Done.

Edited by Ijsman, 24 March 2023 - 23:07.

[AustinF1]

No, they should change it back and let the teams figure out how to handle the porpoising like some other teams already had.

Edited by AustinF1, 25 March 2023 - 03:38.

[HP]

Those making the rules need to understand that Mercedes last year made an awful car that had nothing to do with the rules. They simply were listening to Toto but all he and his team produced is yet another not so good car. Again nothing to do with the rules.

 

So don't listen to team owners, drivers, designers and what not. Also watch the race, instead of the money. That should give the clues they really need.

 

 

Should they change from last year? That depends. After the Red Bull everything is closer than ever, but overtaking is harder. Well maybe overtaking is harder because the cars are closer to each other. Especially Verstappen's comment is interesting. So the car's are close when racing each other. That is good.

[jacdaniel]

Hardly anyone was propoising in the 2nd half of last season anyways so it's weird that they changed the rules.

If teams don't want to porpoise then they should just stop porpoising.

But yes, it seems like overtaking is harder again which is a shame.

[PitViperRacing]

Where's Bliman when you need him? I'm sure he'll pop up defending the rules changes.

Thanks Toto, you absolutely flog.

Need to go back to 2022 rules and just use the Meyer that measures vertical oscillations and hold the teams to that.

[Ijsman]

It’s weird that we didn’t hear an expert on this potential problem last year. It seemed they said upping the ride height was the only solution IIRC. So stupid.

[RedRabbit]

Ijsman, on 25 Mar 2023 - 10:14, said:

It’s weird that we didn’t hear an expert on this potential problem last year. It seemed they said upping the ride height was the only solution IIRC. So stupid.

There were plenty. Just none with influence at the FIA.

[ANF]

The "aero tricks" mentioned in the article seem to have more to do with front wings than raised floor edges?

[OO7]

Ijsman, on 24 Mar 2023 - 23:07, said:

 

https://www.auto-mot...k-outwash-2023/

 

"OVERTAKING HARDER AGAIN: Less action due to aero tricks

Formula 1 and FIA ​​are alarmed. Driving behind and overtaking have become more difficult again. The drivers feel reminded of 2021. Did the regulations give the engineers too much freedom?"

 

 

 

 

 

The article talks about more difficulty to follow according to Verstappen, Leclerc and Sainz, plus the amount overtakes have decreased.

Seems like Liberty Media/FIA shot themselves in the foot. They should change the rules back to last year with a standard part in the rear suspension to fix the bouncing. Done.

 

There was never really a need for the floor changes.  Safety concerning bouncing should have been adequately covered by the AOM, but as you say, going back to the 2021 and earlier suspension systems would also help.

[IrvTheSwerve]

AustinF1, on 25 Mar 2023 - 03:37, said:

No, they should change it back and let the teams figure out how to handle the porpoising like some other teams already had.

 

[OO7]

It's a funny thing comparing this thread to the DRS thread.

[pacificquay]

Way too early to say

[noikeee]

OO7, on 25 Mar 2023 - 13:13, said:

It's a funny thing comparing this thread to the DRS thread.

Schrödinger's overtaking. Too hard and too easy at the same time.

[OO7]

noikeee, on 25 Mar 2023 - 13:50, said:

Schrödinger's overtaking. Too hard and too easy at the same time.

[ARTGP]

pacificquay, on 25 Mar 2023 - 13:33, said:

Way too early to say

 

It might be, but comparing Verstappen's races in Monza and Spa last year to Saudi Arabia, I felt that his progress was noticeably slower and it's not like Verstappen didn't have the highest top speeds last weekend. 

[Viryfan]

ARTGP, on 25 Mar 2023 - 14:39, said:

It might be, but comparing Verstappen's races in Monza and Spa last year to Saudi Arabia, I felt that his progress was noticeably slower and it's not like Verstappen didn't have the highest top speeds last weekend.

There is also the fact the whole field got closer but i agree.

The best example was Gasly at Bahreïn, he was stuck behind Albon for god how many laps but had a 1 second advantage over him once he cleared him.

Before in Bahreïn when you had a 1 sec advantage you had it easy for overtaking.

Edited by Viryfan, 25 March 2023 - 14:57.

[PayasYouRace]

They changed the rules because one or two teams couldn't solve a basic aerodynamic problem. They changed the rules to reduce the ground effect, and now people are wondering if the ground effect has been reduced and made following another car harder. Go figure...

 

The FIA should have just stuck to their guns. The 2022 rules were fine, and limits on porpoising could be enforced quite easily. The change in suspension rules is a red herring. This wasn't a problem with much more basic suspension in the 1978-1982 period.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Typical F1, painting themselves into a corner that they didn’t need to be in from the beginning. “Driver safety” was the argument all because the most successful team of this century lobbied repeatedly and the FIA caved in. The result was ground effect being reduced and then imposing this 15mm increase that has caused the engineers to find performance in ways that the new 22 rules had sought to limit or restrict. Now any changes to the cars will be highly contested by Red Bull and the teams are going to incur unnecessary costs if any such changes are introduced, a mess of epic proportions.

Good job FIA, a nice way to shoot yourselves in the foot and return to what you had departed from in 2021.

[genius83]

STRFerrari4Ever, on 25 Mar 2023 - 15:51, said:

Typical F1, painting themselves into a corner that they didn’t need to be in from the beginning. “Driver safety” was the argument all because the most successful team of this century lobbied repeatedly and the FIA caved in. The result was ground effect being reduced and then imposing this 15mm increase that has caused the engineers to find performance in ways that the new 22 rules had sought to limit or restrict. Now any changes to the cars will be highly contested by Red Bull and the teams are going to incur unnecessary costs if any such changes are introduced, a mess of epic proportions.

Good job FIA, a nice way to shoot yourselves in the foot and return to what you had departed from in 2021.

Completely Agreed.

 

This is FIA at its very best of creating messes by forgetting that the rules are clear about this matter. Last year, they destroyed the championship battle by the mid season rules change and now this they are seriously are a bunch of clowns.

[Clatter]

PayasYouRace, on 25 Mar 2023 - 15:21, said:

They changed the rules because one or two teams couldn't solve a basic aerodynamic problem. They changed the rules to reduce the ground effect, and now people are wondering if the ground effect has been reduced and made following another car harder. Go figure...

The FIA should have just stuck to their guns. The 2022 rules were fine, and limits on porpoising could be enforced quite easily. The change in suspension rules is a red herring. This wasn't a problem with much more basic suspension in the 1978-1982 period.

I don't believe it is was a case of couldn't solve, rather they were unwilling to.

[milestone 11]

Apparently, the directive has been repealed.

[vlado]

Seems to me that by running the RB19 so close to the ground Red Bull are showing us that you can still built a proper ground effect car, it’s just much harder now?

The FIA messed up last year, it was almost like they panicked when the driver safety thing came up and didn’t know how to handle it. Didn’t they want to raise the cars even more but Red Bull and Ferrari protested so they settled on the current metric?

[vlado]

milestone 11, on 26 Mar 2023 - 12:34, said:

Apparently, the directive has been repealed.

It’s redundant now since they raised the ride height… so it means nothing

Edited by vlado, 26 March 2023 - 12:42.

[milestone 11]

vlado, on 26 Mar 2023 - 12:41, said:

It’s redundant now since they raised the ride height… so it means nothing

I doubt that it means nothing, if true.

[vlado]

Maybe it does but I doubt they will mess with the rules in any major way again

[cbo]

Mercedes will soon pressure FIA to outlaw sidepods...😁

[Boing Ball]

vlado, on 26 Mar 2023 - 12:41, said:

It’s redundant now since they raised the ride height… so it means nothing

Did they really rise the ride height or did they rise the edges of the floor?

[Ijsman]

Boing Ball, on 26 Mar 2023 - 14:45, said:

Did they really rise the ride height or did they rise the edges of the floor?

 

After reading this article, it seems to really be the edges. Which is confusing, since the head of that paragraph says 'Ride height'.

 

https://www.formula1...FDnw8fD0rp.html

 

The last sentence of that paragraph is great: "These adjustments should, in theory, make significant porpoising a thing of the past and, as such, keep the focus on the thrilling action that F1’s rules reset has delivered."

Edited by Ijsman, 27 March 2023 - 14:58.

[ARTGP]

Quote

 

 

The doubts quickly dissipated after two races, the aerodynamic anti-porpoising rules - validated after negotiations between the teams and the FIA - strengthened the operation of Red Bull. Forcing designers to increase floor heights has frozen or in some cases slowed performance, making ground-effect cars more sensitive to turbulence beneath the bottom. Partly violating its very nature. It is not a surprise because the suction effect is now disturbed more, what disappoints is that from Ferrari and Mercedes down there have been no adequate solutions to better protect the Venturi tunnels and the diffuser through the edge of the bottom. Sealing the car on the track in the best possible way is a challenge that today requires a different spirit than when the new regulations were written.

Corriere.it

Edited by ARTGP, 28 March 2023 - 16:20.

[flyboym3]

FIA should have just allowed the j-damper back to solve the bouncing - that's what suspensions are for.

They are not thinking straight when they talk about raising parts of the floor when they designed a ground effect ruleset,.its absolutely contradictory.

Its now too difficult to access the performance that only the 1% know how to do it and if FIA don't change something soon, at least for next year, this rule era is going to be a disaster for the sport.

[Brian60]

So many wanting to roll back the regs to 2022. Until last season there was no problem, so lets roll it back to 2021 when the cars were more equal. Or does '22 suit the narrative of the Red Bull car better?

[Boing Ball]

Brian60, on 28 Mar 2023 - 17:17, said:

So many wanting to roll back the regs to 2022. Until last season there was no problem, so lets roll it back to 2021 when the cars were more equal. Or does '22 suit the narrative of the Red Bull car better?

Maybe there is a reason for the lack of nostalgia for the 2017-2021 regs?

[SCUDmissile]

The FIA truly are the stupidest.

Get rid FOM. Run it yourselves

[Primo]

Funny really, to get the downforce they needed, Mercedes had to run the car lower than the competitors. They could not because the ground was in the way so instead they lobbyed fot everyone to raise their floor. Come new season, Mercedes realize they must run their car lower than the opponents to get the downforce needed. They could not because the rules are in the way... 

Seems to me that until the first test, they thought their car concept was good if they could just run with more ride height. Not until the first test they realized how stupid that idea was.

[thefinalapex]

Brian60, on 28 Mar 2023 - 17:17, said:

So many wanting to roll back the regs to 2022. Until last season there was no problem, so lets roll it back to 2021 when the cars were more equal. Or does '22 suit the narrative of the Red Bull car better?

Overall the field was much tighter last year. 2021 was Rb and Mercedes and then a very very big gap to the rest. Give me ‘22 any day of the week. Last year we had Alpine in Melbourne in the hunt for pole position as an example. The hybrid rules from 2014-2021 has been a big mistake.

[thefinalapex]

flyboym3, on 28 Mar 2023 - 16:59, said:

FIA should have just allowed the j-damper back to solve the bouncing - that's what suspensions are for.

They are not thinking straight when they talk about raising parts of the floor when they designed a ground effect ruleset,.its absolutely contradictory.

Its now too difficult to access the performance that only the 1% know how to do it and if FIA don't change something soon, at least for next year, this rule era is going to be a disaster for the sport.

In other words give me back Mercedes domination😂😂

[YamahaV10]

I did actually notice the cars spreading out this year.

Go back to the first half of 2022. The cars were bumper to bumper. What an absolute disaster this has turned into. Repeal everything from the 2nd half of last year now.

These tech directives ruined everything.

[YamahaV10]

Brian60, on 28 Mar 2023 - 17:17, said:

So many wanting to roll back the regs to 2022. Until last season there was no problem, so lets roll it back to 2021 when the cars were more equal. Or does '22 suit the narrative of the Red Bull car better?

The first half of 2022 was an instant hit. Everyone could see that the cars followed way better. The drivers all said it too. We had a showdown up front between RB and SF.

It's pretty obvious that something happened in the meantime and everything has taken a step backwards.

The first half of 2022 was everything that everyone hoped the new regs would be. And this year , it's everything that everyone hoped the new regs wouldn't be. (I'm an RB fan)

[Jops14]

It’s such a bizarre decision to modify the rules for this season… i have noticed it hasnt been as close as last season, last season it felt like cars would get overtaken and then just sucked along by the car in front.

Mercedes, ruining F1 since 2014 lol

[MikeTekRacing]

I think this Mercedes trolling is bad. They did what they felt it was best for them and used the levers they had.
The people allowing it were incompetent- but that’s not Mercedes’ fault

[TecnoRacing]

YamahaV10, on 29 Mar 2023 - 00:17, said:

Go back to the first half of 2022. The cars were bumper to bumper.
The first half of 2022 was an instant hit. Everyone could see that the cars followed way better. The drivers all said it too. We had a showdown up front between RB and SF.

I was around back then, and it really wasn't that much better to be honest.

In hindsight, I think most people (fans, drivers, teams, the FIA, F1) were kinda deluding themselves, wishing it to be so.

 

It was always going to get worse as teams developed their designs.

[MikeTekRacing]

Just watch the racing. It was much closer

[Ivanhoe]

Drivers also said it was much easier to follow.

[jacdaniel]

The start of 2022 was brilliant. Nearly every race we had Red Bull and Ferrari fighting hard in quali and the races. I remember at least 3 occasions where Max finished less than 2 seconds ahead of a Ferrari to win.

One team wasn't happy and used safety as an excuse to whinge and get the rules changed instead of just fixing their car.

Now it seems like Ferrari are sucked back into the pack and cars can't follow as well.

[lewislorenzo]

jacdaniel, on 29 Mar 2023 - 05:46, said:

The start of 2022 was brilliant.

Was brilliant until the RB lost weight👍🏾even then it wasn’t that great. Only Silverstone was an epic race

2021 was a much better season then 2022

[SCUDmissile]

lewislorenzo, on 29 Mar 2023 - 07:10, said:

Was brilliant until the RB lost weight👍🏾even then it wasn’t that great. Only Silverstone was an epic race

2021 was a much better season then 2022

2021 was an anomaly.

You are biased because Lewis was doing great so it looked good to you but the other years, not so much.

Thanks to Mercedes and especially Toto Wolff and FIA for ruining this era. And F1. Again.

Edited by SCUDmissile, 29 March 2023 - 07:23.

[Pingu Pi]

Once again, by accounts almost all the drivers were calling for changes not just Mercedes. Understandably the sport listened to those who have to endure the cars (as well as consulted doctors) and reacted. 

 

That said, I think it's really quite difficult to understand if the changes have ruined the ability to dice in race trim or if it's just the development of the teams and their understanding of the regulations which is subverting the intention with clever aerodynamics.

 

It's likely a combination of both however the sport should really take some time to understand this as it's a shame - The first half of 2021 had fabulously competitive racing and it produced fun battles all the way through the field from my recollection.  

Edited by Pingu Pi, 29 March 2023 - 08:52.

[mclara]

Pingu Pi, on 29 Mar 2023 - 08:42, said:

Once again, by accounts almost all the drivers were calling for changes not just Mercedes. Understandably the sport listened to those who have to endure the cars (as well as consulted doctors) and reacted. 

 

That said, I think it's really quite difficult to understand if the changes have ruined the ability to dice in race trim or if it's just the development of the teams and their understanding of the regulations which is subverting the intention with clever aerodynamics.

 

It's likely a combination of both however the sport should really take some time to understand this as it's a shame - The first half of 2021 had fabulously competitive racing and it produced fun battles all the way through the field from my recollection.  

Excatly. That is the reason FIA panicked and introduced new measurements 

 

SCUDmissile, on 29 Mar 2023 - 07:22, said:

2021 was an anomaly.

You are biased because Lewis was doing great so it looked good to you but the other years, not so much.

Thanks to Mercedes and especially Toto Wolff and FIA for ruining this era. And F1. Again.

And you are just biased because of how bad Ferrari is doing. 
 

[pdac]

Pingu Pi, on 29 Mar 2023 - 08:42, said:

Once again, by accounts almost all the drivers were calling for changes not just Mercedes. Understandably the sport listened to those who have to endure the cars (as well as consulted doctors) and reacted. 

 

That said, I think it's really quite difficult to understand if the changes have ruined the ability to dice in race trim or if it's just the development of the teams and their understanding of the regulations which is subverting the intention with clever aerodynamics.

 

It's likely a combination of both however the sport should really take some time to understand this as it's a shame - The first half of 2021 had fabulously competitive racing and it produced fun battles all the way through the field from my recollection.  

 

All drivers were calling for changes. But were they all calling for the changes proposed by Mercedes and adopted by the FIA? I doubt they were. They simply did not want to go out and be shaken vigorously for 90 minutes. The simple act of removing any shaking cars from the event would have sufficed (proven by the fact that when the FIA threatened that, the bouncing incidents dropped dramatically).

[lewislorenzo]

SCUDmissile, on 29 Mar 2023 - 07:22, said:

2021 was an anomaly.

You are biased because Lewis was doing great so it looked good to you but the other years, not so much.

Thanks to Mercedes and especially Toto Wolff and FIA for ruining this era. And F1. Again.

Unfortunately Ferrari designed their car around something that was banned. RB weren’t reliant on it as we have seen…

Edited by lewislorenzo, 29 March 2023 - 09:14.