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Court Makes Nelson Piquet Pay for Racist Comments


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#51 highdownforce

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 02:51

One important thing for non-brazilians to take note:

Racism is not only a civil offense, it's a crime on our law system.

Nelson not only used the N word he also said that Hamilton lost to Rosberg because of excess of gay sex.

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#52 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 03:10

One important thing for non-brazilians to take note:

Racism is not only a civil offense, it's a crime on our law system.

Nelson not only used the N word he also said that Hamilton lost to Rosberg because of excess of gay sex.

If it is an offense, either civil or criminal, then Piquet wasn't in fact free to express what he did.  That's fair enough, societies should always be upfront about what you're free to express and what you're not free to express.  That's very different from the "you're free to express yourself but you're not free from consequences that in practice nullify your freedom" doublethink.



#53 efuloni

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 04:06

If it is an offense, either civil or criminal, then Piquet wasn't in fact free to express what he did. That's fair enough, societies should always be upfront about what you're free to express and what you're not free to express. That's very different from the "you're free to express yourself but you're not free from consequences that in practice nullify your freedom" doublethink.


Scholars discuss the limits of speech almost since the day the "right to freedom of speech" was invented.
We are at least 80 years late in this discussion.
Anyway, latin countries do use to have more strict boundaries and control of hate speech than the anglo countries. And its ok. This doesnt make the freedom of speech cease to exist neither transform these countries in a dictatorship. Like every other human right, freedom of speech also has its limits.

It seems like this is a weird thing for americans (and maybe britains?) to understand, but for those countries with a a latin/german tradition in the state-of-law, it is pretty normal. For us, what is weird is the almost non-existent responsability for hate speech in the US, for example.

Edit: lastly, there was no grey area. Racism is a criminal and civil offense in Brazil. Piquet knew that. The limits were pre-existent and he still did it. Now is paying for that. Fair and square. Nothing to see here except from the work of the NGO who sued him and the good sentece from the judge.

Edited by efuloni, 26 March 2023 - 04:08.


#54 Gareth

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 06:21

Well, we had a few posters on here from Brazil saying ‘the whole “this is normal in Brazil and not racist” thing is an excuse - even in context in Brazil it is obvious he was trying to be racist’ and seems pretty clear now (not that it wasn’t before) that they were right, given a Brazilian court has now agreed.

Seems an odd law to me that a group can bring this sort of action but think that’s something of a side issue to the main F1 stuff: an ex F1 driver was alleged to have been racist about a current F1 driver, that allegation has now been upheld by a court.

#55 pacificquay

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 07:08

Almost certainly. Which touches on the delicate subject if Piquet dislikes Hamilton because he's non-white or if he just uses for everyone he dislikes (for various reasons) every means to insult he can think of. Knowing [the public] Piquet since the eighties, I'm pretty sure it's the latter.

It actually doesn’t matter if he “meant it”, he said it.



#56 xstatic345

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 07:26

Not really sure why someone would imply that, but, in any case, I was trying to go beyond the whole Piquet thing, which most believe to be not right (not talking about the judge’s verdict here but what he actually said).

To me, Lewis, as a mixed race person, has lost a chance to truly build bridges by presenting himself as representing only or mostly one side of his ancestry. So, instead of acting as a sort of mediator, which he would be in the perfect position to do, he seems to have taken a more divisive position.


It is on Lewis Hamilton to build bridges between black and white people? Either you are joking or are a joke.

#57 as65p

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 07:28

It actually doesn’t matter if he “meant it”, he said it.

Neither did I bring up what he might have meant nor did I dispute what he said. I was just correlating this thing with his past behaviour.



#58 Pingu Pi

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 08:52

It is on Lewis Hamilton to build bridges between black and white people? Either you are joking or are a joke.


Definitely one of the funnier/more ridiculous in the ever growing line of sticks crafted to swing at Hamilton.

Edited by Pingu Pi, 26 March 2023 - 08:55.


#59 gillesfan76

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 09:00

Wonder what would have happened if Ham had looked like his mom…

 

 

What I meant was that Lewis would have been the same person (more or less) but with a different skin color. Would he then have considered himself “black”? Because the articles are labeling him a “black” person. But in what sense is Lewis “black”?

*I’m using quotes because for me these are just political ways of labeling.

 

 

Not really sure why someone would imply that, but, in any case, I was trying to go beyond the whole Piquet thing, which most believe to be not right (not talking about the judge’s verdict here but what he actually said).

To me, Lewis, as a mixed race person, has lost a chance to truly build bridges by presenting himself as representing only or mostly one side of his ancestry. So, instead of acting as a sort of mediator, which he would be in the perfect position to do, he seems to have taken a more divisive position.

 

I can see that there is a significant level of ignorance and misunderstanding on your part. I’m not saying that to insult but rather making a factual assertion as it’s rather clear. Being black myself, I’m more than happy to give you background and answer the questions that you are asking. Please send me a PM if you’d like to discuss privately.



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#60 pdac

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 09:58

It is on Lewis Hamilton to build bridges between black and white people? Either you are joking or are a joke.

 

Conflicts are only ever solved in one of two ways:

 

1. One party totally annihilates the other

2. BOTH parties agree to understand and respect each other and to work towards a common resolution, acceptable to both

 

Conflict just highlights an issue. To solve it requires a much more nuanced approach ... or total war.



#61 jjcale

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 10:21

 

Nelson Piquet must pay 5 million Brazilian reals (about £780,000) for racist and homophobic comments against Lewis Hamilton, according to the Times of London. The action was brought not by Hamilton, but by four Brazilian human rights groups. The article isn't entirely clear, but it looks as though the money must be paid to Hamilton, though the amount includes a "punitive" as well as compensatory element. This is because of Piquet's 2021 comments after the British GP crash.

 

We discussed the ins and outs in this old closed thread:

https://forums.autos...8#entry10116807

 

If you have a Times subscription you can read it here, but I'm sure it'll be all over the news.

https://www.thetimes...ilton-tm795k2xv

 

 

This is beyond bullshit .... a sad day for free speech. 

 

I dont believe in banned words ... any words. ... whether for me or against me. 

 

One day I will need to use strong words .... and I want to be free to so so when that time comes. 

 

I prefer that freedom - and consider it more important ... than stopping people being racist to me. ... and this wasnt even to LH's face.... someone had to dig this up and bring it to his (and our) attention.

 

... this was Piquet speaking on podcast broadcast online .... basically the modern definition of speaking in the town square.

 

.....

 

.... I have a bit of a suspicion that there is some local Brazilian politics mixed up in this.... Piquet supported the loser in the last presidential election there - and very publicly too .... so there may be an element of payback. 

 

FWIW ... I much prefer Lula to Bolsonaro - for two reasons, in order of importance - 1) he is a much better manager and 2) he is much more pro black than Bolsonaro (who seemed to me to be a racist) and that matters in Brazil as the level of racism there is off the charts ..... but I still dont agree with this. 

 

 

edit - and with that I am going to leave you white people to talk among yourselves ... as I know from experience on this forum that none of you care what any black person thinks about any topic to do with anti-black racism ... and indeed last time this topic came up I was called and anti-black racist by a "woke" white person because I did not share his views. 

 

So have fun, y'all.


Edited by jjcale, 26 March 2023 - 10:25.


#62 as65p

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 11:21

...

edit - and with that I am going to leave you white people to talk among yourselves ... as I know from experience on this forum that none of you care what any black person thinks about any topic to do with anti-black racism ... and indeed last time this topic came up I was called and anti-black racist by a "woke" white person because I did not share his views. 

 

:lol:

 

But you just know us whites have to take care of anti-racism since you can't fix it yourself, do you?

 

 ;)



#63 AlexPrime

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 11:31

I think that there shouldn't be a fine. :wave: 



#64 Burtros

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 12:40

Great news. No place for his words in the modern world.

Free speech is not what this is about.

Personally I’d have fined him a lot more!!

#65 Gravelngrass

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 13:52

I can see that there is a significant level of ignorance and misunderstanding on your part. I’m not saying that to insult but rather making a factual assertion as it’s rather clear. Being black myself, I’m more than happy to give you background and answer the questions that you are asking. Please send me a PM if you’d like to discuss privately.

I think that by messaging privately we would prevent other people here from joining the discussion, which, for some reason, you don't even think is necessary. Not wanting to publicly discuss something in a forum, which is basically designed to do precisely that, is what shows ignorance, intolerance or both.  



#66 jcbc3

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 13:53

What you fail to understand is that he is helping you out there. But you can't help yourself.



#67 pdac

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 14:19

Great news. No place for his words in the modern world.

Free speech is not what this is about.

Personally I’d have fined him a lot more!!

 

I think you'll find there are plenty of places in the world for his words - just not in pubic in Brazil.



#68 highdownforce

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 15:29

I have a bit of a suspicion that there is some local Brazilian politics mixed up in this....


But that is the whole point: Piquet was clearly dog whistling to white supremacists supporters.

Edited by highdownforce, 26 March 2023 - 15:31.


#69 gillesfan76

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 15:48

I think that by messaging privately we would prevent other people here from joining the discussion, which, for some reason, you don't even think is necessary. Not wanting to publicly discuss something in a forum, which is basically designed to do precisely that, is what shows ignorance, intolerance or both.  

 

OK.

 

The assertions in several of your posts - assertions that you frame as questions to which you’re sadly not actually seeking answers to - ignore identity in favour of possibly a scientific view of genetics.

 

I understand where the ignorance comes from, I truly do since it’s especially difficult to understand when one hasn’t walked in another’s shoes. But it’s far from impossible to understand, but one has to try. From a genetics perspective, sure I understand when you assert “What would have happened if Ham had looked like his mom….”. While his father is black, after all his mother is white. Why should one half matter more than the other half, right?

 

Not so simple. If Lewis looked like his mom and was raised white, what do you think his views would be? Or..what if Lewis looked like his mom and was raised black? Or…what if Lewis looked like his dad and was raised white? Do you think his view in each situation would be the same? Do you think one view is more “right” than the other? What would your view be if you looked white but were raised black? Or if you looked black and were raised white? What do you think your experiences would be and your perspective would be?

This could be an interesting article for you to consider how our identity shapes us https://www.theguard...hia-white-black

 

Or what about these people, who identified themselves as white https://www.washingt...779c_story.html

Does a DNA test suddenly make them black?

 

Hopefully now after some further thought and consideration, you may be able to answer your own question of “In what sense is Lewis “black”?”

 

Finally, coming back to your post where you thought that because one of Lewis’ parents is black and the other white, that he should somehow be best placed to understand perspectives of both and mediate between identities, then I suspect I probably don’t have to explain this in too great a detail to you now. So I’ll just summarise and say that just because Lewis’ mom was white, and even his stepmom was white, does not necessarily mean that he could relate to being white. His experiences, being raised by a black father heavily involved in his formative years and more crucially, his skin colour, is likely to mean that he mainly if not wholly relates to being black.

 

Besides, what exactly is there to mediate on? That part has got me genuinely stumped.



#70 Victor

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 16:11

From his Mansell Wiliams partnership I already knew the man was a complete idiot. From his stupid comments on Hamilton I have learned that he is also racist. From this court case I now learn that he paid a lot of money to help electing the disgusting Jair Bolsonaro. He cannot get worst than this.



#71 Gravelngrass

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 17:22

OK.
 
The assertions in several of your posts - assertions that you frame as questions to which you’re sadly not actually seeking answers to - ignore identity in favour of possibly a scientific view of genetics.

 
Hmm, why do you think I'm not seeking answers to those questions? Isn't the fact that I actually made the effort of posting here and then responding to you proof that I'm actually seeking to clarify something by arguing (again, the long-forgotten point of these kinds of forums)? But it seems to me that you have already made a prejudgement about that... 
 

I understand where the ignorance comes from, I truly do since it’s especially difficult to understand when one hasn’t walked in another’s shoes. But it’s far from impossible to understand, but one has to try. From a genetics perspective, sure I understand when you assert “What would have happened if Ham had looked like his mom….”. While his father is black, after all his mother is white. Why should one half matter more than the other half, right?
 
Not so simple. If Lewis looked like his mom and was raised white, what do you think his views would be? Or..what if Lewis looked like his mom and was raised black? Or…what if Lewis looked like his dad and was raised white? Do you think his view in each situation would be the same? Do you think one view is more “right” than the other? What would your view be if you looked white but were raised black? Or if you looked black and were raised white? What do you think your experiences would be and your perspective would be?
This could be an interesting article for you to consider how our identity shapes us https://www.theguard...hia-white-black
 
Or what about these people, who identified themselves as white https://www.washingt...779c_story.html
Does a DNA test suddenly make them black?

 
I'm aware of the nature vs nurture debate, but this seems more of an attempt of using the attack the messenger fallacy. Of course identity shapes us as well, together with many other factors, including DNA as you have said. But it's precisely, IMO, the identification with a certain group of people and the signaling of others that is making the whole "race" issue worse. In the end, there are only good and bad people as it has been proven that most humanity (possibly excluding some very isolated groups) have a very complex mix in their DNA. So let's focus on fighting these bad people, not bad [insert skin color, gender, et.al.] people. 

If we really want to be unprejudiced, we should forget entirely about skin color and ignore the political manipulation some groups have been trying with this issue as a means to gain power basically.  
 
 

Hopefully now after some further thought and consideration, you may be able to answer your own question of “In what sense is Lewis “black”?”
 
Finally, coming back to your post where you thought that because one of Lewis’ parents is black and the other white, that he should somehow be best placed to understand perspectives of both and mediate between identities, then I suspect I probably don’t have to explain this in too great a detail to you now. So I’ll just summarise and say that just because Lewis’ mom was white, and even his stepmom was white, does not necessarily mean that he could relate to being white. His experiences, being raised by a black father heavily involved in his formative years and more crucially, his skin colour, is likely to mean that he mainly if not wholly relates to being black.
 
Besides, what exactly is there to mediate on? That part has got me genuinely stumped.

He would be in a good position, because of his mixed ancestry, to make this whole thing much less confrontative. But the way he goes about it shows me that maybe there are some internal issues that he hasn't confronted or solved yet that don't allow him to and he feels the need to still approach this as an us vs. them matter instead of a much more peaceful, holistic path.   



#72 Sterzo

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 17:24

Maybe this thread has run its course, as we've discussed the court case (insofar as we are able) and found out what it actually ruled. But now we're repeating arguments from the closed thread and drifting towards the Paddock Club. If our mods agree, could they close it please?



#73 registered

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 17:26

Yes has little to do with racing

#74 pdac

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 17:32

Yes has little to do with racing

 

Race, but not racing.



#75 Risil

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Posted 26 March 2023 - 17:44

Thanks for participating everyone. I agree with Sterzo! Closed.