88 replies to this topic

[john aston]

Joanne drew my attention to a obituary in The Times the other day . It was of  'popular big band crooner' Dennis Lotis (me neither ) and here's the extract - 

 

"..... my wife bought a little Ford Van and distributed eggs to our friends like Roger Moore , Sean Connery and [the racing driver] Graham Hill. "  

 

In NGH's prime  , who could have imagined (NGH included ) that one day  his name would require parenthetic explanation ? 

Edited by john aston, 26 March 2023 - 16:21.

[E1pix]

I think the context is it was written by a non-race fan, they presumed the rest of the world only knew what they did, and they spent race weekends at Bond movies.

[Jim Thurman]

I think the context is it was written by a non-race fan, they presumed the rest of the world only knew what they did, and they spent race weekends at Bond movies.

It was likely written by someone who was 10-20 years from being born when Graham Hill passed away.

 

Time fades away...

[Sterzo]

I haven't yet overcome my disappointment at Graham Hill having to abandon the yellow peril Lotus XI in the long grass at Knicker Brook, at my first ever race meeting in 1956. As for Dennis Lotis, he could obviously sing better than me, but his surname always seemed like a spelling error.

[Charlieman]

Last Christmas, I talked with a grand nephew about his enthusiasm for eff-wun. We talked about Flour, Beans and Smithy -- a big part of Italian motor sport history. I tried not to preach about the past.

[Jack-the-Lad]

One possible explanation is that compared to racing drivers, actors are in the public conscience for much longer, both in life and in death.  In fact, my wife and I are more likely to watch a movie starring Connery…or even Guinness.. than one with Pitt or Cruise. 

[ensign14]

In which film did Kenelm Lee star? 

[john winfield]

Jack, I agree. We live in a bit of a motor sport bubble so it can be tricky to judge if past racing names mean much to the general public.

 

John, Dennis Lotis meant nothing to me either until he came to live in my home town of Tring. I have vague memories of him opening a restaurant, The Lotis House, but apparently it was an antique business.  Glad I didn't eat there.

Before Tring he'd lived in Mill Hill and Kings Langley during which he must have become friends with the Hills, Sean Connery and Roger Moore (who also moved out somewhere near us, Berkhamsted area I think). Lotis's oldest son, born in the late 1940s/early 1950s is called Damon. Can't be a coincidence can it?

Edited by john winfield, 26 March 2023 - 18:12.

[john winfield]

In which film did Kenelm Lee star? 

 

Ensign, you're being a smart Alec again aren't you?

[ensign14]

I prefer "genuine class".

[E1pix]

It was likely written by someone who was 10-20 years from being born when Graham Hill passed away.
 
Time fades away...

That’s right Jim, though my theory could apply if written an hour ago. We’re deep in an era where things like this are written for some of lesser perception, not for those with more. Many can barely spell much less read, their phones take on such tiresome burdens.

[john winfield]

I prefer "genuine class".

 

Very good.

 

Confused actor shows true quality (4, 8)?

[LittleChris]

I believe Roger Moore lived in Leverstock Green ( poshish part of Hemel ) 

[Nick Planas]

I believe Roger Moore lived in Leverstock Green ( poshish part of Hemel ) 

 

He also had a place between High Wycombe and Hazlemere in Bucks - we used to pass near it on our trek to/from school every day

[LittleChris]

Did he raise an eyebrow as you passed ? 

[chr1s]

He also had a place between High Wycombe and Hazlemere in Bucks - we used to pass near it on our trek to/from school every day

He lived in Denham, near the airfield in the early 1970s.

[LittleChris]

Got about a bit didn't he 

[john winfield]

Got about a bit didn't he 

 

He was no saint.

 

My Dad insisted that, while watching me play U10s football, that Roger Moore, for a while, had been spectating too.  I didn't believe him but, the following week, another parent corroborated the story.  There was a younger lad with surname Moore who then got told by us old' uns that he must be related, but even under mild torture he denied everything.  Well trained, obviously.

[LittleChris]

Not Bobby then 

[marksixman]

It was likely written by someone who was 10-20 years from being born when Graham Hill passed away.

 

Time fades away...

I was a big Graham Hill fan. My first live race visit was Easter '62 at Goodwood, when Stirling crashed and Graham won. 

 

Later my Mum knitted me a big GLTL scarf to wear on my BSA Bantam ! (which I still have - the scarf, not the Bantam !!)

 

I can remember the exact corner on the exact road when I heard the news of the 'plane crash.

 

Time does not fade, it just dulls.

Edited by marksixman, 26 March 2023 - 21:03.

[LittleChris]

My first hero and you're right it doesn't fade just dulls ( along with so many more). I only saw him on track a couple of times but well remember my mum coming into the living room and telling me the news on a dark November night all those years ago.   

[Sterzo]

I can remember the exact corner on the exact road when I heard the news of the 'plane crash.

 

Time does not fade, it just dulls.

I can echo this... and have a friend who sadly heard the crash itself.

 

Concerning journalists or readers being unaware of Graham Hill: I'd be disinclined to blame current news standards or modern yoof. If anyone remembers the general standard of newspaper coverage in Graham Hill's lifetime, if it wasn't "racing ace cheats death in 100 mph smash" it wouldn't be reported at all. Stirling Moss was, of course, a household name, but my schoolmates called me a liar when I said I'd seen him. They demanded to see his autograph, and didn't listen when I explained he was passing rather too quickly for me to ask for it.

[wheadon1985]

We used to have a BARC golf tournament in the early 70s with the winner getting the "BARC Embassy Hill" trophy donated by the great man himself. The trophy is sat in my office and I've been thinking of trying to revive the event as i'd love to get my name on it!

The man is one of my all time hero's and I'm only 37 years old.

[Sterzo]

To add to the connections, amongst my many favourite London walks is one along the Thames at Putney. This presents a great opportunity to bore whoever I'm with.

 

[ensign14]

One of the founder members of the FA, the Barnes club, was basically spun out of the LRC, and had the same dark blue and white colours.

[john aston]

I am  not at all surprised when names from motorsport don't enter the public consciousness - I'd struggle to name many footballers now, let alone from the past . But Hill had transcended  his sport and become a popular public figure, a fixture on TV chat shows  , even Morecambe and Wise (popular comedic duo , for readers from afar ) .  So mild surprise from me at the [   ]  

[Gary Davies]

And let’s forget his stirring performance in ‘The Fast Lady’.

[RCH]

Joanne drew my attention to a obituary in The Times the other day . It was of  'popular big band crooner' Dennis Lotis (me neither ) and here's the extract - 

 

"..... my wife bought a little Ford Van and distributed eggs to our friends like Roger Moore , Sean Connery and [the racing driver] Graham Hill. "  

 

In NGH's prime  , who could have imagined (NGH included ) that one day  his name would require parenthetic explanation ? 

 

Dennis Lotis was a big star in 1950's and yes I have heard of him! As such his fame and presumably income would predate Moore, Connery and Graham Hill. So why would his wife need to sell eggs to them later on?  He was too early to be a victim of "Sex n'drugs and rock and roll" surely?:

Edited by RCH, 27 March 2023 - 10:36.

[john aston]

His wife ran a chicken farm in Kings Langley as well as managing what remained of his career. Not so  much a victim of sex and drugs but collateral damage of the Beatles and Stones ' rock n roll .   

[MCS]

I am  not at all surprised when names from motorsport don't enter the public consciousness - I'd struggle to name many footballers now, let alone from the past . But Hill had transcended  his sport and become a popular public figure, a fixture on TV chat shows  , even Morecambe and Wise (popular comedic duo , for readers from afar ) .  So mild surprise from me at the [   ]  

Eric Morecambe and Graham were big mates, were they not?  They didn't live too far from each other (Harpenden and Mill Hill).

[RobertE]

I recall that there was actually a car called a Lotis; I recall seeing a reference in GN Georgano's book.

 

I was a huge NGH fan; I only saw him race at Thruxton, in the European F2 leg of the championship; (1969?) - he went out and some bobble-hatted clown stopped him on his trudge back to request an autograph. My Dears, the language! I couldn't really blame him, though...

Edited by RobertE, 27 March 2023 - 19:08.

[10kDA]

TV and film stars seem to endure in the collective awareness much longer and stronger than sports figures and pop music stars. What with streaming, reruns, and the networks devoted to same for the purpose of extracting every last nickel out of a studio's property, it's no wonder. If I wake up before 5 AM which happens frequently, I can catch reruns of mid-60s episodes of "The Saint". I notice the DVD section of the local Half Price Books store has a good selection of 007 titles, as individuals or collections of some or all. For some reason "oldies" radio stations don't scratch the same itch. How many fans remember The Crazy World of Arthur Brown, Canned Heat, Blue Cheer for more than one or two songs? Procol Harum for that matter.

 

The music industry hack-phrase "You're only as good as your last (hit) record" may have a kind of equivalence in top-level motorsports that goes something like "You're ony as good as your last season" or maybe "... your last race." Certainly, not everyone who follows motor sports thinks along those lines but many apparently do. I hate to think about it, but I wonder how long before some fanboi-focused internet platform spews something like "Graham Hill - The Greatest World Champion You've Never Heard Of." That is, if it hasn't been done already. It all happened a long time ago. The blip in the collective awareness becomes dimmer and dimmer, thus somebody felt a need to "explain" the presence of Graham Hill in Lotis' obit.

[john aston]

'Felt a need' ? '"Explain" ' ? Forgive me for thinking some TNF folk might have found it of interest.  

[10kDA]

'Felt a need' ? '"Explain" ' ? Forgive me for thinking some TNF folk might have found it of interest.  

I'm referring to the quote from the obit. That was not your work, was it? Maybe I misunderstood. I though it was a quote from a published obit.

[john winfield]

'Felt a need' ? '"Explain" ' ? Forgive me for thinking some TNF folk might have found it of interest.  

 

 

John, I'm sure 10K was referring to the 'obituarist', writing in The Times, not you!

 

Going back to your original post, I suppose any reader of The Times in their early fifties, born say after 1969/1970, would never have been exposed to that era where Graham was a regular, charming figure in the British media.  Some younger readers might know him as the father of Damon but it seems understandable to me that the journalist felt the need to explain further.

[john aston]

Ok - sorry for being prickly    

[opplock]

My grandmother used to take joy in pointing out the many household management faux pas in Upstairs Downstairs. Having been in service until she married in 1915 she did know what she was talking about. 

 

It is worth bearing in mind that the 1960s are as far removed from the present day as the Edwardian era was in my childhood. Those under 50 with an interest in motor racing history will know what or who we are talking about. The other 99% probably don't.    

[Tom Glowacki]

My grandmother used to take joy in pointing out the many household management faux pas in Upstairs Downstairs. Having been in service until she married in 1915 she did know what she was talking about. 

 

It is worth bearing in mind that the 1960s are as far removed from the present day as the Edwardian era was in my childhood. Those under 50 with an interest in motor racing history will know what or who we are talking about. The other 99% probably don't.    

Exactly.  Face it; Hermann Lang, to name just one, does not see a lot of love these days and 1980's cars are all over the place at vintage events.

[marksixman]

To add to the connections, amongst my many favourite London walks is one along the Thames at Putney. This presents a great opportunity to bore whoever I'm with.

 

Lovely ! Shame there wasn't something interesting parked outside 'though, like a Lotus 18 or a BRM !!

 

Pull. Pull. !!!

[D-Type]

In this context, I don't have a problem.  Let's face it - how many of us motor racing enthusiasts would recognise the names of, say, Cup Final winners, Wimbledon winners or Olympic medallists from the Graham Hill era.  The two James Bond actors are more familiar from the films we have slept through over Christmas.  Perhaps, for completeness the Times obituary writer should have included "(James Bond actors)" 

Edited by D-Type, 27 March 2023 - 21:39.

[404KF2]

He's not a fading memory for me. I remember him well from Autocourse magazines and the like back in the Matra-Simca days. Also being the only one who has managed the Triple Crown so far. I remember too hearing of the plane crash on Canadian TV. So sad.

 

Interesting too that his son and another son of a racing driver who died too young went on to win the WDC in a Williams.

[E1pix]

... and the titles coming in consecutive years, in almost-identical livery,.

[rl1856]

One can hope that there would be some among the new/recent fans who have interest in learning about the history of the sport.     

[404KF2]

You calling me old? Oh. 

[D-Type]

One can hope that there would be some among the new/recent fans who have interest in learning about the history of the sport.     

Aren't you forgetting something?  The quoted Times obituary was aimed at the general readership and not at motor racing fans whether recent or longstanding.

[arttidesco]

Maybe the parenthesis would not have been necessary if Graham had been given a larger role in the Alistair McLean thriller Caravan to Vaccares ?

Edited by arttidesco, 30 March 2023 - 08:27.

[LittleChris]

Or for his role as Bob Turner in Grand Prix

[Jim Thurman]

Aren't you forgetting something?  The quoted Times obituary was aimed at the general readership and not at motor racing fans whether recent or longstanding.

That's one of my points, and quite valid. Though I recall when I was young and didn't know about someone that had passed, the news would explain who they were and why there worth noting. Now, not so much.

 

A U.S. writer noted that when Roy Orbison passed away, it was front page news. He went on to note that had it happened 10 years earlier, it would have been buried deep in the paper or just been a brief note. I'll add that had it happened 10-20 years later, the same would apply.

[Lemnpiper]

That's one of my points, and quite valid. Though I recall when I was young and didn't know about someone that had passed, the news would explain who they were and why there worth noting. Now, not so much.

 

A U.S. writer noted that when Roy Orbison passed away, it was front page news. He went on to note that had it happened 10 years earlier, it would have been buried deep in the paper or just been a brief note. I'll add that had it happened 10-20 years later, the same would apply.

 

 

    Jim  it's like when awards programs do their In Memoriam segment , and folks comment on so and so who was missing  and why they were left out.    At the Oscars this year  you had Paul Sorvino being the one most cited as being left out , But then you has some like Henry Silva  who has decades of great roles also left out.  Seems like if you live into your nineties as an actor /actress  the odds of getting over looked rises.

 

 

    Paul

[Lee Nicolle]

Watching the AGP and his son Damon is commentating,, and he is very faded. Very grey. And very interesting as a commentator