440 replies to this topic

[Baddoer]

Stick to the rulebook. Simple ad that.

[Dalton007]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Laptom]

Sure but get rid of the standing restart if its after 50 % race distance or so. Also, speed it up as it’s taking a lot of time.

This. I think the SC, VSC and red flags were fine and legit, but which m**on decided a standing start with 5 laps to go 😒.

[SenorSjon]

With a 60 km/h slow zone for Magnussen between T1 and T4 the race could have finished under green flag conditions hours ago.

I am an advocate for slow zones for ages.

[Laptom]

Do what Wheatley asks him?

Or what Toto demanded?

Don't put it on Wheatley as Toto was as bad or worse.

[Alexis*27]

Seems pretty simple to either end the race a lap early, or do the start again.
E.g. if a race is red flagged and one full racing lap cannot be completed at the restart, the race will end with the classification being taken from the end of the previous sector. If no sector has been completed the standing start will be repeated and the lap counter will revert back to the same as the previous restart.

[LiJu914]

My suggestion regarding a rule adjustment:

1. In case of late major incidents, it still should be at the discretion of RC, whether a (V)SC or red flag should be applied; but with the guideline that finishing under green has priority (so when in doubt red flag instead of SC)

2. No standing (re)starts if 90% of the race distance have already been completed

3. If the race can´t end under green (e.g. today´s race) then the race shall not be resumed.

 

Edited by LiJu914, 02 April 2023 - 08:33.

[Jexz]

"Rules are rules". We cant have a car with 57,5 laps worth of fuel, winning the race by being parked in the pits with only 57/58 laps done.
Was it exciting, no, was it the real thing to do, I think so 😊

[sabjit]

Seems pretty simple to either end the race a lap early, or do the start again.
E.g. if a race is red flagged and one full racing lap cannot be completed at the restart, the race will end with the classification being taken from the end of the previous sector. If no sector has been completed the standing start will be repeated and the lap counter will revert back to the same as the previous restart.

 

I'm gonna start copying and pasting my debunk of the suggestion of adding laps as I think I'll use it a lot today.

 

You can't add laps on in this formula because of the fuel load. Yes its likely the cars had surplus fuel due to SC laps but you cant bank on that.

 

And before you mention BTCC they are much shorter races and can mandate fuel loads to ensure this isnt a problem. It's not so easy to do with long races where you would have to mandate effectively enough fuel for the engines to run at burn level the whole race, otherwise everyone will try and dump their fuel early doors and you still have the same problem. In which case what is the point of this engine formula?

[Alexis*27]

Why would anyone NOT want a standing start? The alternative being a rolling start where 1 person overtakes, if we're lucky.

[sabjit]

Why would anyone NOT want a standing start? The alternative being a rolling start where 1 person overtakes, if we're lucky.

 

Because it helps ensure we dont have stop start scenarios. Today was annoying and not worth all the hassle just to see some crashes.

 

Also it renders the entirity of the preceding race meaningless.

Edited by sabjit, 02 April 2023 - 08:38.

[LiJu914]

Why would anyone NOT want a standing start? The alternative being a rolling start where 1 person overtakes, if we're lucky.

 

Just look at today´s race - and also imho a race shouldn´t be dwarfed into a "who starts best"-contest.

Edited by LiJu914, 02 April 2023 - 08:38.

[Goron3]

Perhaps for late race restarts it should be a rolling start. But I was fine with it today, but you just had some questionable driving after the second red flag.

[Alexis*27]

Fuel loads? If anyone needs to refuel during the red flag period they can do, and be sent to the back of the grid as a penalty. I suspect you'd find everyone magically would manage to finish.

[Alexis*27]

If you against standing starts it doesn't add if you're only against them after 50% race distance, or whatever.

 

Pitstops under the safety car renders everything that has gone before utterly meaningless for certain drivers, so should we ban them too?

[sabjit]

Fuel loads? If anyone needs to refuel during the red flag period they can do, and be sent to the back of the grid as a penalty. I suspect you'd find everyone magically would manage to finish.

 

They wouldnt because of the rarity of the situation will lead people to run it marginally anyway. The exact same thing happened with pit lane closing for SC. You were supposed to simply pit a few laps before your fuel load ran out, and nobody did this.

[sabjit]

If you against standing starts it doesn't add if you're only against them after 50% race distance, or whatever.

 

Pitstops under the safety car renders everything that has gone before utterly meaningless for certain drivers, so should we ban them too?

 

Unfortunately closing the pitlane during SC just creates a more extreme problem the other way.

[PayasYouRace]

Why would anyone NOT want a standing start? The alternative being a rolling start where 1 person overtakes, if we're lucky.

 

Becasue we might actually get a proper finish.

[pdac]

Why not just have no overtaking on the first lap of the restart.

[PayasYouRace]

Why not just have no overtaking on the first lap of the restart.

That’s kinda what we have, hence we had the stilly lap of nothing at the end.

[Ferrim]

Why not just have no overtaking on the first lap of the restart.

We already kind of had that for years: rolling start.

[Amz964]

What's an issue is that how many red flags have we had for incidents since even as close as 2020. They are just getting more and more common not just in the race but also Qualy. Of course some are needed like full barrier repairs but the one today for gravel, that is nonsense a safety car would have been more than adequate. I was watching some highlights of 1999 races and in Brazil Sarrazin lost it up the hill had a huge shunt guess what no SC or anything De La Rosa Arrows was on the main straight on the left guess what no SC. In Monaco cars were off left right and centre and guess what no SC.

If this is how it's gonna be and they want green flag racing till the end there is no point deploying the safety car. Obviously the chaos today was caused by driver errors and it happens but it's more concerning that the smallest incident causes a VSC/SC or a red these days, Like Stroll in Jeddah he was off the circuit!! And they say oh we didn't have GPS but they have how many camera's or Marshalls reporting.

Edited by Amz964, 02 April 2023 - 10:37.

[Jarninho]

If you against standing starts it doesn't add if you're only against them after 50% race distance, or whatever.

 

Pitstops under the safety car renders everything that has gone before utterly meaningless for certain drivers, so should we ban them too?

I hate those pitstops under the sc, so yes if at all possible. It isn,t though because teams can claim a safety issue (when driving through debris for example). 
 

I am against standing starts late in the race because of what we saw today, but even in Baku in 21 it felt wrong.
 

Let's be honest it’s only done for entertainment purposes, which is fine with me because I watch it to be entertained. But having a standing start so close to the end feels like a really bad movie where in the last 3 minutes the entire story suddenly changes. Very rarely does that end well. Only Kaiser Soze (Shose?) pulled it off properly and that was almost 30 years ago. And no, Shyamalan didn't even come close. Usualy it just leaves most of us with a very sour taste.

Before half distance there's plenty of time for a good ending to be written.

[Timorous]

We can do better. We can restore the old gaps on the road.

Just release them out of pits one at a time at the correct gaps and run the lap under VSC. Once all cars have left the pits (some of whom may be lapped, so be it) then randomly end the VSC period as normal.

[PayasYouRace]

Just release them out of pits one at a time at the correct gaps and run the lap under VSC. Once all cars have left the pits (some of whom may be lapped, so be it) then randomly end the VSC period as normal.

 

You don't even need to do that. You just release them from the pits, and each driver would have a delta time to bring them to the line to begin the next lap at the right time. If they're too quick, penalty.

[SenorSjon]

Why would anyone NOT want a standing start? The alternative being a rolling start where 1 person overtakes, if we're lucky.

Because it is a safety car and not a ahow car? It is unfair enough as it is for everyone to have their gaps nullified or their strategy undone if they just pitted, another if you suddenly lose it all. And it just takes too frigging long. Stop the unlapping nonsense and make SC's shorter again.

[Ickx]

Greate success adapting the worst part of Nascar to F1

[CoolBreeze]

Coupled ofg years ago the red flagged the brazilian gp when Alonso crashed heavily into the barriers, and stopped the race with a few laps to spare. Same then should have been done today.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Why would anyone NOT want a standing start? The alternative being a rolling start where 1 person overtakes, if we're lucky.

Because in any sport there is a balance to be struck between unpredictability of results and having the results reflect performance throughout the whole event.  Even if you completely ignore the safety aspects of a standing start with 2 laps to go, if Verstappen had another mediocre start and Hamilton passed him for the win, it would be a hollow victory, since Verstappen so clearly had the measure of the field and would've only lost because someone decided to make results unpredictable. 

 

When a racing series decides to go all-in on unpredictability, it loses its soul and becomes what NASCAR is in 2023.  It also doesn't get to be more interesting to watch, because complete unpredictability is not exciting to watch.  There is a reason why some people find poker to be an interesting spectator sport, whereas there seems to be no interest in watch people play roulette.

[Goron3]

Coupled ofg years ago the red flagged the brazilian gp when Alonso crashed heavily into the barriers, and stopped the race with a few laps to spare. Same then should have been done today.

That was due to the conditions. Same as Malaysia 09.

The circuit today was perfectly raceable.

[uzsjgb]

Because in any sport there is a balance to be struck between unpredictability of results and having the results reflect performance throughout the whole event.  Even if you completely ignore the safety aspects of a standing start with 2 laps to go, if Verstappen had another mediocre start and Hamilton passed him for the win, it would be a hollow victory, since Verstappen so clearly had the measure of the field and would've only lost because someone decided to make results unpredictable. 

 

You will always have a measure of unpredictability, even with a rolling start. At the first red flag the "unpredictability" was already there before the restart - the drivers who had just pitted before the red flag. Occurences like that have much more impact than losing a position or two due to a bad standing restart. 

[messy]

It's normally useful to elaborate your actual position so people can agree or disagree with you. There are sentiments here I agree with but I fear your proposals I might not.

Odd response that kind of sums it why I'm sick of this stuff pretty perfectly and will generally give these threads a wide berth.

I don't know what the answer is, in all honesty. But not what we saw today, or at Spa, or in Abu Dhabi 2021, Japan last year, or the countless other times the start, finish or entire running of a Grand Prix has descended into absolute farce while the people at home (or even more do the paying fans at the circuit) collectively think WTF.

[uzsjgb]

Odd response that kind of sums it why I'm sick of this stuff pretty perfectly and will generally give these threads a wide berth.

I don't know what the answer is, in all honesty. But not what we saw today, or at Spa, or in Abu Dhabi 2021, Japan last year, or the countless other times the start, finish or entire running of a Grand Prix has descended into absolute farce while the people at home (or even more do the paying fans at the circuit) collectively think WTF.

 

With "collectively" you probably mean those fans who do not know the rules. Those who know the rules knew what was going to happen, because it was done by the book. So maybe education is the solution to the problem?

[messy]

With "collectively" you probably mean those fans who do not know the rules. Those who know the rules knew what was going to happen, because it was done by the book. So maybe education is the solution to the problem?

Is the discussion not more about whether the current rules are the right way to handle such situations rather than whether they followed the letter of the current law? Thats where you're going to see the wildly differing opinions. Sure, by the letter of the rules maybe it was handled today exactly as you'd expect - but thinking of your average fan, one of those guys standing by the trackside today who'd paid to see a good race, no you're right, they probably don't know how it's likely to play out at that stage. And I'd guess if you did a poll of people who enjoy the sport regardless of whether they know the rules inside out or not, you'd get an overwhelming majority who don't like the way they're currently being applied in these situations.

And I'd argue that's the point where something probably needs to change, at least in the medium or longer term.

In terms of solutions, Formula E has a system where safety car laps are added back on at the end of the race, which would make sense to me. I understand caution when it comes to throwing red flags - the near miss with Gasly in Japan last year being an example of why a cautious approach is often best, but if you're going to get into a situation where more red flags get thrown I think you have to think about how that affects the sport a little more than they currently seem to have.

Edited by messy, 02 April 2023 - 16:43.

[Albertino]

On one hand, I like Red Flags because we conserve racing laps. Safety cars in the past often results in Bernd MAylander going for Fastest Laps when the track had been clear for 2 laps already. If that's the case they should revert back to no tire swaps at Red Flags and only repair damage, but then you have the opposite problem of a driver that was due to pit 5 laps later who then loses 15 places when he needs to pit. 

 

it will never be perfect, but the red flag restart at the end? A complete farce.

 

If we're going to lose several laps to clean up, then yes Red Flag is better. 

[uzsjgb]

I think a lot of the outrage is from people being caught unawares. Like the people at the track chanting "one more lap" and then getting a safety car finish. Understandably people will then get emotional. Knowing the rules could have prevented that. But I don't know how to fix that, the rules are so complicated even the experts (and the FIA) don't know everything. The broadcasters do seem to make a good effort at explaining the rules.

 

Sadly these rules discussions only happen in an emotional state after something happens people don't like. And then often people call for a rule change for exactly this one case. I personally would like a "rules forum", where rules are discussed in general and not only in certain specific cases. Now people are arguing for safety car instead of red flag for race finishes, but a few races ago people were arguing for red flag instead of safety car, when a driver almost hit a stationary car. 

[AustinF1]

It's a little silly, having standing restarts at the end of a GP weekend imho. I think if we're gonna do standing restarts, maybe there should be a cutoff point beyond which you get a conventional rolling restart. A standing restart with 2 laps to go seems very NASCAR. Say ... last 10 laps, only rolling restarts.

[SenorSjon]

Red flag over 90% should just be race ending, old rules were more sensible than they think.

[Cyanide]

Becasue we might actually get a proper finish.

It's not the rules or the FIA's fault that drivers are desperate to make up positions from a restart and cause massive crashes.

[AustinF1]

Red flag over 90% should just be race ending, old rules were more sensible than they think.

Great point.

[SenorSjon]

It's not the rules or the FIA's fault that drivers are desperate to make up positions from a restart and cause massive crashes.

They could elect a running start or no red flag altogether. What do you expect if only one lap has to be run after the start. That start will become very important.

Edited by SenorSjon, 02 April 2023 - 18:05.