76 replies to this topic

[William Hunt]

Today's race finish was a farce, a finish under safety car is always an anti-climax for the fans.

And imho they broke rules today. When the race was red flagged the penultumate time and when the penultimate re-start was taken the lap count was on 56 laps. Then for the final restart, the so called "rolling start" (for a few 100s of meters) the lap count was suddenly on 58 laps when the pace car left the pit straight.

What they did was adding the two pace car laps that were supposed to be to lead the field to their standing start restarts, which were in reality warm-up laps and not race laps, to the lap count. That's why it suddenly jumped from 56 laps to 58 laps.
But that's not correct since a warm-up lap leading cars to the grid is just a warm-up lap. After all the warm-up lap that they do every race for the first start is never added to the lap count either so naturally the warm-up lap to a restart is not a race lap either but also a warm-up lap.
To make matters more complicated: imho they didn't do a 1 lap countback (which is normally a rule when a red flag occurs) for the final standing start. If they had applied that then the lap count should have been on 55 and not 56 since they had to count back a lap.

No my suggestion is: when a crash and restart occurs so closely to the end as today then add an overtime rule like in NASCAR. If NASCAR 2 laps are always added to the race total if a crash & red flag / full course yellow occurs in the final laps of the race. Unless the leader has already received the white flag (meaning unless the leader has already started his last lap, this is the only way that overtime can be avoided in NASCAR).

This is an excellent rule created to avoid an anti-climax finish.

Off course in F1 cars could run out of fuel (or may not have enough left for a sample after the race) with an overtime rule. But this problem can simply be solved by allowing teams to refuel during an  overtime situation.
Anything better than a farce like today with cars "racing" for 200 meters just before the flag.

 

There are exceptions off course when a race should simply finish under red flag and not be restarted: like a very serious accident where a drivers life may be in danger or conditions that are too dangerous to continue to race (like a storm).

Edited by William Hunt, 02 April 2023 - 08:03.

[Risil]

Just get rid of finishes. Turn off the cameras after lap 56 and let the drivers decide when to stop.

[sabjit]

I think this is the wrong lesson to take from today. Sometimes just finish the ducking race

[PayasYouRace]

Just finish the race behind the safety car. Nobody wants this chaos and confusion. So a few fans find it a bit anti-climactic? So what? At least it’s a system everyone understood.

Overtime is stupid!

[Sarkis]

Personally I'd not add more gimicky attempts to generate artificial excitement that pretty much invalidates the previous 55-56 laps. 

 

Regarding the lap count, laps behind the safety car have always counted after the initial start, so what happened today was consistent with what's always been done. I also think you're somewhat off in your accounting:

* Lap 56 was the safety car lap towards the standing start

* Lap 57 was the restart + chaos + return to pits

* Lap 58 was safety car to the rolling 'restart'

* There was no lap countback, rather the last time the order of the field apparently was possible to establish was the restart on lap 57, and that's what they went back to.

 

Personally not thrilled with how this was handled overall, I feel they have microsectors nowadays that could also be used for the standings. And I feel the final 'restart' was farcical and unnecessarily harsh towards the drivers that got caught out in the lap 57 mayhem, often through no fault of their own. I just don't think any more restarts are going to make Formula 1 a more satisfying product that rewards on merit.

Edited by Sarkis, 02 April 2023 - 08:16.

[SenorSjon]

Monza 2022 was perfectly fine.

SC procedures are way too long, so they eat to many laps. That should be looked at. And a red flag will add 30 minutes at least. It also resets strategy and is thrown out way too easy these days.

Those standing reatarts should be ditched.

Edited by SenorSjon, 02 April 2023 - 08:19.

[sabjit]

Another general counterpoint to OP is that you can't add laps on in this formula because of the fuel load. Yes its likely the cars had surplus fuel due to SC laps but you cant bank on that.

 

And before you mention BTCC they are much shorter races and can mandate fuel loads to ensure this isnt a problem. It's not so easy to do with long races where you would have to mandate effectively enough fuel for the engines to run at burn level the whole race, otherwise everyone will try and dump their fuel early doors and you still have the same problem. In which case what is the point of this engine formula?

[Wuzak]

Regarding the lap count, laps behind the safety car have always counted after the initial start, so what happened today was consistent with what's always been done.  

 

Yes, there were several laps behind the safety car during the race that counted.

 

And they count towards the number of laps in NASCAR, unless it is a G-W-C finish, then they can do 5, 10, 20 laps behind the safety car without any of them counting.

 

Also, if there is an aborted start, the cars take off for another warm-up lap and the race is reduced by 1 lap.

[Wuzak]

Monza 2022 was perfectly fine.

SC procedures are way too long, so they eat to many laps. That should be looked at. And a red flag will add 30 minutes at least. It also resets strategy and is thrown out way too easy these days.

Those standing reatarts should be ditched.

 

They were rather slow in calling for SC after KMag's crash.

[Wuzak]

Just finish the race behind the safety car. Nobody wants this chaos and confusion. So a few fans find it a bit anti-climactic? So what? At least it’s a system everyone understood.

Overtime is stupid!

 

And when there is a red flag with 1 lap to go, call the race.

[Wuzak]

Off course in F1 cars could run out of fuel (or may not have enough left for a sample after the race) with an overtime rule. But this problem can simply be solved by allowing teams to refuel during an  overtime situation.

 

The amount of fuel they are allowed to use in the race is fixed at 110kg.

 

So while adding fuel seems simple, it could lead to cars breaking that limit.

 

Also refueling is only allowed inside the pit garage. Not in the pit lane, nor on the grid.

[PayasYouRace]

And when there is a red flag with 1 lap to go, call the race.

 

Yeah, if there's not enough laps to finish under green, there's no point.

[sabjit]

The amount of fuel they are allowed to use in the race is fixed at 110kg.

 

So while adding fuel seems simple, it could lead to cars breaking that limit.

 

Also refueling is only allowed inside the pit garage. Not in the pit lane, nor on the grid.

 

Some cars dont even use this limit so raising it wont do much. Also mandating a minimum fuel load will mean people will look to dump fuel they dont need early so OPs suggestion wont work plus defeats the whole point of this formula.

[Scotracer]

If they'd done a rolling restart at the 2nd red then everything would have been fine. These standing starts I'm okay with in the first 1/4 or 1/3 of the race but after that, no.

[ConsiderAndGo]

That’s what they are doing, so might as well be transparent about it.

[spa2000overtake]

They were two options for the last 3 laps 

- End the race behind behind the safety car for last remaining laps which would prevented 30 minute delay after the crash drama between Alpine drivers behind the pack.

- The Red Flag and restart sequence after Magnussens tyre coming out in the track.

The later option did not make it more exciting since they had to finish the race during last lap as SC went till pits to allow drivers cross the finish line. 

Hopefully the stewards will take a lesson after this mess in the future situations.

Masi must have been enjoying all of this in the paddock. 

[William Hunt]

Yeah, if there's not enough laps to finish under green, there's no point.

 

Unless you add an overtime rule, then there are enough laps to finish under green. That was my whole point. In Formula E they even add race laps tot the totals countering laps behind the safety car so they extend their race too just like NASCAR so the concept is not unique.. 

[PayasYouRace]

Unless you add an overtime rule, then there are enough laps to finish under green. That was my whole point. In Formula E they even add race laps tot the totals countering laps behind the safety car so they extend their race too just like NASCAR so the concept is not unique.. 

 

Overtime rules are stupid and unfair.

 

The race is run over a particular distance, not keeping going until you get a result that looks good. That's all it is. It's a basic lack of sporting integrity at the very least. It's not about getting a fair result. It's about getting the cars going over the line without a safety car in front of them to look pretty for the cameras.

 

In a non-refuelling, non-sprint formula, it doesn't work, as excllently argued by sabjit.

 

Another general counterpoint to OP is that you can't add laps on in this formula because of the fuel load. Yes its likely the cars had surplus fuel due to SC laps but you cant bank on that.

 

And before you mention BTCC they are much shorter races and can mandate fuel loads to ensure this isnt a problem. It's not so easy to do with long races where you would have to mandate effectively enough fuel for the engines to run at burn level the whole race, otherwise everyone will try and dump their fuel early doors and you still have the same problem. In which case what is the point of this engine formula?

[Ruudbackus]

They should just finish the race if a red flag occurs so late in the race. If a red flag is thrown for a real red flag incident that is. I ratehr had them call it at lap 56 than the hour that followed after that.

[uzsjgb]

If they'd done a rolling restart at the 2nd red then everything would have been fine. These standing starts I'm okay with in the first 1/4 or 1/3 of the race but after that, no.

 

This is just totally random. I am completely in favor of one set of rules which counts for the whole race. Same rule and procedure on lap 1 or 32 or 56. Easy and simple.

[uzsjgb]

They should just finish the race if a red flag occurs so late in the race. If a red flag is thrown for a real red flag incident that is. I ratehr had them call it at lap 56 than the hour that followed after that.

 

If we don't want races to run their full distance there really is no need to restart a race after a red flag - ever. If you can skip three laps, then you can just as well skip 15 or 32. If three laps are not important to the race and can be skipped, then there really is no argument for saying 10 laps or 27 laps are important and can't be skipped.

[AlexPrime]

I hate the NASCAR overtime finishes and their never ending races - much bigger farce than a safety car finish.

[ensign14]

Just finish the race behind the safety car. Nobody wants this chaos and confusion. So a few fans find it a bit anti-climactic? So what? At least it’s a system everyone understood.

Overtime is stupid!

Or, if there is an incident in the last quarter that requires the race to be red-flagged, end it there.

 

That was the rule for the entire history of the sport and there were no complaints.

[Ruudbackus]

If we don't want races to run their full distance there really is no need to restart a race after a red flag - ever. If you can skip three laps, then you can just as well skip 15 or 32. If three laps are not important to the race and can be skipped, then there really is no argument for saying 10 laps or 27 laps are important and can't be skipped.

Like with points they can also set percentages for when they do or do not restart after a red flag. If its just 2 laps its bound to be chaos. For example; If 85% race distance is run and a red flag is thrown; there is no restart

[Clrnc]

The only take away I have today is that if there's an incident like this at the first corner with 2 laps to go, void the lap and restart again with the same amount of laps remaining.

[uzsjgb]

They were two options for the last 3 laps 

- End the race behind behind the safety car for last remaining laps

 

I am not sure that was an option. It seems the FIA safety protocol calls for a red flag in case of debris and/or car on track. For safety reasons that is the correct decision. I don't want safety decisions influenced by external issues. In these cases I want the race director to focus soley on the accident and throw a red flag for safety reasons, not looking at lap counts, the severity of the accident and the position of the cars on the track in case he wants to use the safety car for the race end.

 

How would you write such a safety protocol? Debris on track is a safety issue and needs a red flag except in the last laps when it isn't a safety issue? How do you define when a red flag is necessary even in the last laps? You don't want arbitrary race director decisions. And remember that cars can still drive very fast under a safety car, if they are catching up to the pack? Do you want that? If doesn't make that any safer, being the last laps of a race.

[uzsjgb]

Or, if there is an incident in the last quarter that requires the race to be red-flagged, end it there.

 

That was the rule for the entire history of the sport and there were no complaints.

 

For a long part of the history of the sport they just kept racing past dead drivers and there was little need for red flags.

[ensign14]

For a long part of the history of the sport they just kept racing past dead drivers and there was little need for red flags.

There are plenty of examples of races ended prematurely.  The only one that ever caused controversy was Monaco 1984.

[NewMrMe]

Something else to add, when they used to count back a lap under a red flag they also used to knock a lap off the race distance to compensate for the fact that drivers had driven that extra lap.

[PayasYouRace]

Or, if there is an incident in the last quarter that requires the race to be red-flagged, end it there.

That was the rule for the entire history of the sport and there were no complaints.

No. With a quarter of the race left there’s plenty of reason to continue. Unless it’s physically impossible to restart safely.

[Clrnc]

Also, the Masi solution is ALOT better than a red flag. Change to SC rules and make the Masi solution legal.

[ensign14]

The Masi solution, like Masi, is utterly stupid.  It kills the leader and rightful winner, and could literally kill someone as they all go berserk on a mix of fresh and used tyres.  If you need to run the show car for five or six laps and then have a one lap shootout, you're throwing away sporting integrity for bloodlust.  Just end the ****ing race.

 

No. With a quarter of the race left there’s plenty of reason to continue. Unless it’s physically impossible to restart safely.

The old rule was a quarter of the race for full points.  Literally nobody complained.

[PayasYouRace]

 

 

The old rule was a quarter of the race for full points.  Literally nobody complained.

 

Well I'm complaining now. It is unsporting to cut the race short of its full distance unless you phyisically can't complete it. So, the barrier is damaged beyond a 1 hour repair, weather conditions make it too dangerous, etc. That's fine.

 

If the track can be cleared and the cars can get going again, they should go the full distance just from a sporting point of view. For someone who is so keen on sporting integrity, I'm surprised you can't see that.

[sportyskells]

Have this person forgot cars need fuel plus there a time limit of two hours

[Burtros]

There’s nothing wrong with finishing under a safety car.

[ensign14]

Well I'm complaining now. It is unsporting to cut the race short of its full distance unless you phyisically can't complete it.

 

But it's sporting to say, yes, you did build up a 2 minute lead in 95% of the race, but we're instead going to totally **** you over and have a one-lap sprint to the flag from a standing start?

 

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

[jonklug]

There was no mistake, I think the problem is we shouldn't have standing re-starts at all or certainly not in the last 20% of the race. Having an actual 2 lap sprint shoot-out with all on the line might sound exciting but it creates a lot of risk and chaos easily follows as we saw. I also think red flagging a race to clean a bit of tire debris from the track is overkill, could have been EASILY done under SC. If that's how the rules are then sure but maybe they need adjusting because that was all so unnecessary. 

[PayasYouRace]

But it's sporting to say, yes, you did build up a 2 minute lead in 95% of the race, but we're instead going to totally fuck you over and have a one-lap sprint to the flag from a standing start?

 

 

No that's not particularly sporting either. Which is why I'm arguing that we can restart the race and restore the gaps, which is possible to do so in a single lap. So the only reason to not restart the race, other than safety, is when there are less than 2 laps to go (because you need one to restore the gaps).

[jonpollak]

NO GWC...

It's BS in NASCAR and it's BS here.

 

Boo Hoo, finish the race under the safety car.

Tragic as that may be to the come lately's.... THAT how its done.

 

Jp

[Dmitriy_Guller]

If something happens that's a letdown for excitement, then so be it.  Engineering excitement is a downward spiral for the sport.

[William Hunt]

I hate the NASCAR overtime finishes and their never ending races - much bigger farce than a safety car finish.

 

I don't like NASCAR in general but that rule wouldn't have that effect at all in F1. Less cars on track + in NASCAR there are drivers that bump in too each other on purpose, some might even dare to trigger it on purpose, that wouldn't happen in F1, you wouldn't see never (well never is exagerated) ending races in F1.

[AustinF1]

Personally I'd not add more gimicky attempts to generate artificial excitement that pretty much invalidates the previous 55-56 laps. 

Yes. Let's not go full NASCAR here.

 

 

Just finish the race behind the safety car. Nobody wants this chaos and confusion. So a few fans find it a bit anti-climactic? So what? At least it’s a system everyone understood.

Overtime is stupid!

Yep. And if there's a red flag after 90% of the race distance has been completed, end the race. Oh yeah, no standing restarts in the last 10 laps. It's nonsense.

[Dolph]

Standing restarts are exciting and a complete artificial enhancement of the show.

[RacingGreen]

Another general counterpoint to OP is that you can't add laps on in this formula because of the fuel load. Yes its likely the cars had surplus fuel due to SC laps but you cant bank on that.

 

And before you mention BTCC they are much shorter races and can mandate fuel loads to ensure this isnt a problem. It's not so easy to do with long races where you would have to mandate effectively enough fuel for the engines to run at burn level the whole race, otherwise everyone will try and dump their fuel early doors and you still have the same problem. In which case what is the point of this engine formula?

 

 

At the moment you need to have a minimum amount of fuel at the end of a GP, I think it is a 1 litre. I forget the exact amount but I'm sure those nice people at Aston Martin know. The amount is based on having enough for the scrutineers to sample and test. Why can't you mandate that you must have 1 litre plus X litres amount of fuel in your tank at the end of the race, where x is enough to do say 5 laps. If you need to restart you drop that amount by 1/5 X litres to account for the extra lap? Two restarts by 2/5 X litres etc.

[w1Y]

We basically saw overtime in 2021. No thanks. Max deserved to win today and his win shouldn't be put at risk because of what happened.

[SenorSjon]

NO GWC...

It's BS in NASCAR and it's BS here.

 

Boo Hoo, finish the race under the safety car.

Tragic as that may be to the come lately's.... THAT how its done.

 

Jp

 

In the end, we still had a SC finish that took another hour...

[Wuzak]

We basically saw overtime in 2021.

 

No we didn't.

 

That race went the correct distance, no more, no less.

[Joseki]

The fact that this is actually a serious discussion topic means FOM already conditioned a lot of the fans.

[TheFish]

No we didn't.

 

That race went the correct distance, no more, no less.

But the last lap shouldn't have happened under the rules.

 

There is nothing wrong with a safety car finish. People say it's anti-climactic, but most races are. Most races have a boring final few laps. Had Magnussen not crashed yesterday, what would have happened in the final few laps? I didn't watch the race, but I was keeping up with live updates and it sounded boring. Presumably the final few laps would have been as boring as those proceeding it. Throwing unnecessary red flags out in the name of entertainment is rubbish. It's unfair and is completely fake. It's not why we started watching F1.

[10kDA]

NASCAR rarely finishes an "overtime" race in a single attempt to get to the final checker. It's annoying and contrived and I generally turn off the TV and find something better to do than wait through a second cleanup session and restart - and another, and another. It's like the final 1 minute 59 seconds of a college basketball game that manages to take 20 minutes to play. If the race is red flagged in the final 5 laps, accept the order at the start/finish line of the last green flag lap as the final result. If the final lap(s) are under a yellow flag situation, let the race end under yellow. State it in simplest terms in the rule book and never deviate. That's racing.