136 replies to this topic

[RacingFan10]

There's nothing entertaining about watching cars in the pits for 20+ minutes, just so the last 4 laps can be a race. And then it was utterly bizarre to watch cars go out behind SC just to drive over the line "for the show".

 

That's because they were repairing the damage in the track, but should not take that long usually.

And about the last one, it was because of the chaotic standing restart

[Sterzo]

The problem really is more with the rules than with the way they were applied today. (Though I voted bad, bad, and bad).

 

We should have:

 

1. Nearly all incidents covered by virtual safety car using improved technology to limit speeds to pit lane level or slower, and to monitor and correct the intervals.

2. Where a stoppage is essential (e.g. if cruising cars couldn't avoid carbon shards), restart in single file at the pre-stoppage intervals.

 

That way we (a) avoid fouling up the race and (b) escape the vicious circle of restarts causing more restarts.

[ARTGP]

 

(b) escape the vicious circle of restarts causing more restarts.

 

and who says FOM and Liberty want to escape this...I think they quite liked the drama. 

 

You're thinking about it from a sporting point of view. That POV is outdated according to Liberty/FOM. 

Edited by ARTGP, 02 April 2023 - 21:05.

[RedRabbit]

and who says FOM and Liberty want to escape this...I think they quite liked the drama.

If you watch live though, red flags are a tedious bore.

[Deeq]

and who says FOM and Liberty want to escape this...I think they quite liked the drama.

Isnt that the SAD truth, and what they say goes..

Edited by Deeq, 02 April 2023 - 21:05.

[RPM40]

I don't mind the red flags but they have to significantly shorten the red flag period if they're going to do this.

 

I kind of prefer red flag to 10 minutes of safety car, but calling it for some gravel seemed a bit unnecessary.

[Risil]

Have we had a statement from the FIA explaining why red flags 1 and 2 were thrown?

[FLB]

Have we had a statement from the FIA explaining why red flags 1 and 2 were thrown?

Not from the FIA, but a spectator was injured from debris from KMag's car.

 

Australian Grand Prix spectator injured by car debris | GRAND PRIX 247

[Sterzo]

and who says FOM and Liberty want to escape this...I think they quite liked the drama. 

 

You're thinking about it from a sporting point of view. That POV is outdated according to Liberty/FOM. 

FOM have never thrown a red flag. It's the judgement of the FIA-appointed race director.

[ARTGP]

FOM have never thrown a red flag. It's the judgement of the FIA-appointed race director.

I understand your point but I didn’t say FOM threw the red flag. I only said that they probably like it when they are thrown.

Also it’s been pointed out that there are understandings between FOM/teams/ and FIA to finish races under green. The execution of that is up for debate…

Edited by ARTGP, 03 April 2023 - 13:07.

[Red5ive]

and who says FOM and Liberty want to escape this...I think they quite liked the drama. 

 

You're thinking about it from a sporting point of view. That POV is outdated according to Liberty/FOM. 

 

Totally.

 

The Netflix guys will make a whole episode out of this "controversy" --kercchiiingggg

[Ali623]

I find it quite funny that people are trying to justifying them throwing up the red flags (at least the second one) primarily for safety reasons, yet they were more than happy to send the drivers out to do a standing start in cold track conditions, a setting sun into turn one, and with 2 laps to go. A situation where everyone could forsee the inevitable carnage that followed...

[Bloggsworth]

As there was no "Buton" for absolute farce, I didn't vote...

[uzsjgb]

I find it quite funny that people are trying to justifying them throwing up the red flags (at least the second one) primarily for safety reasons, yet they were more than happy to send the drivers out to do a standing start in cold track conditions, a setting sun into turn one, and with 2 laps to go. A situation where everyone could forsee the inevitable carnage that followed...

 

Could you only foresee Sainz hitting Alonso at the last restart? Or could you also foresee Leclerc hitting Stroll at the first start? If you think restarts are dangerous because Sainz hit Alonso, then starts must also be dangerous, because Leclerc hit Stroll. This logically leads to the conclusion that it is too dangerous to start races.

[Autodromo]

I understand your point but I didn’t say FOM threw the red flag. I only said that they probably like it when they are thrown.

Also it’s been pointed out that there are understandings between FOM/teams/ and FIA to finish races under green. The execution of that is up for debate…

Are there, really?  Is there anything in writing? 

[Zmeej]

Repechage:

 

Don't worry. Precedent has never meant anything to F1 race control.

 

Hmmm. Not sure if you’re referring to all the precedents set by stewards of Grand Prix/F1 races.

 

After all, some of their decisions seemed to amount to “Hey, that set of stewards made shi7t up as they went along, so can we!”

Edited by Zmeej, 03 April 2023 - 16:07.

[Ali623]

Could you only foresee Sainz hitting Alonso at the last restart? Or could you also foresee Leclerc hitting Stroll at the first start? If you think restarts are dangerous because Sainz hit Alonso, then starts must also be dangerous, because Leclerc hit Stroll. This logically leads to the conclusion that it is too dangerous to start races.

No but anyone could foresee the was a far higher chance of carnage for the reasons I listed, I literally said to my friend that it would only last a few corners before being stopped again. And it wasn’t just Sainz hitting Alonso, it was also Sargeant hitting De Vries, multiple cars cutting across turn one, Gasly rejoining and veering across the circuit into his teammate, Stroll torpedoing across the gravel at turn three, and whatever else I missed. Not exactly a usual start.

[Ivanhoe]

Are there, really? Is there anything in writing?

Don’t know if it’s written down, but in their AD21 verdict the stewards considered the following:

The Race Director also stated that it had long been agreed by all the Teams that where possible it was highly desirable for the race to end in a "green" condition (i.e. not under a Safety Car).

[uzsjgb]

No but anyone could foresee the was a far higher chance of carnage for the reasons I listed, I literally said to my friend that it would only last a few corners before being stopped again. And it wasn’t just Sainz hitting Alonso, it was also Sargeant hitting De Vries, multiple cars cutting across turn one, Gasly rejoining and veering across the circuit into his teammate, Stroll torpedoing across the gravel at turn three, and whatever else I missed. Not exactly a usual start.

 

I have seen so many multi-car crashes at starts that while it is not the norm, it is to be expected. I can safely predict it will happen again in the future. Should we then ever start races with this knowledge?

 

It seems everybody knows that late race restarts are more risky than the start or early race restarts. Then we should discuss based on the data. How much more risk per race lap? What do the statistics say? At which lap at the latest can we risk a restart? After which lap is the risk simply too high? Surely everbody is basing their knowledge on solid data and not on one late restart gone awry.

[Autodromo]

Don’t know if it’s written down, but in their AD21 verdict the stewards considered the following:

I questioned it then and question it now.  If it is so, then it should be in the rules.  If it is not in the rules, then it is just a card to play to justify your actions rather than something to consider when deciding what the rules say.

[Risil]

Don’t know if it’s written down, but in their AD21 verdict the stewards considered the following

 

I remember this being highly unsatisfying at the time! "Where possible" (so under unspecified circumstances it won't end under green), "highly desirable" (so there are other unspecified considerations that might take priority), "it had long been agreed" (so no one wrote it down).

[917k]

Where’s Michael Masi when you need him…

[Ruudbackus]

I questioned it then and question it now.  If it is so, then it should be in the rules.  If it is not in the rules, then it is just a card to play to justify your actions rather than something to consider when deciding what the rules say.

Agree, but as far as I'm aware the teams actually feel that way. But that can be my memory fooling me. I haven't heard any team say they didn't want to finish under green, even not Mercedes, they fought the fact that SC procedures weren't followed correctly.

 

That said, I don't feel they should finish under green at all costs. Yesterday it was ok to call it an ends after throwing the red flag for Magnussen.

[SenorSjon]

Where’s Michael Masi when you need him…

Rumour has it he had locked himself into the Race Control room.

[Claudius]

I tend to think the red flags don’t have much to do with Liberty. They might appreciate it but the main fault lies at FIA and the ever changing ruled and precedents.

[Ruusperi]

I also realized that because F1 has a luxury of allowing races to go overtime, they don't consider delays caused by red flags a big deal. In contrary, many other series have tight schedules, so if they used red flag for gravel and every minor accident, they couldn't even restart the race as their time slot would be exceeded. This time pressure gives them incentive to get the race done as quickly as possible. If F1 had only 2-hour maximum time limit, I'm sure they would think twice before using red flag for situations that don't warrant one.

 

F3 and F2 are effective by even doing car recovery under VSC, which is much quicker than bringing out the SC.

 

Once the car is taken out, VSC can be lifted immediately without the need of waiting SC to pit. For some reason F1 race directors never allow tractor to enter the track under VSC. Then again, marshals are allowed to enter the track to push the car under VSC, so where's the logic in that? If they are afraid of Bianchi-type accident during VSC, why don't they therefore have Rule 60 (or even 20 km/h speed limit) implemented at yellow sector?

[HighwayStar]

My opinion is that the safety car would have been adequate for the Albon accident and definitely for the Magnussen accident, particularly as the damaged car was not blocking the track by this stage. The red flag for the carnage at the second restart was necessary in my view as the wreckage was blocking the track, however I think this situation was brought about by doing a standing restart at such a late stage. I think standing restarts near the end of the race are a fundamentally bad idea and it would better if the rules were changed so that if there is a red flag in the final 25 % of the race distance, the race is restarted with a rolling restart (even the final 10 % would be an improvement). Also, at last year's Italian GP, while I was irritated at the time wasted by the safety car picking up Russell rather than Verstappen I had no problem with the race not being restarted in itself. I consider this outcome to be preferable to the farcical end to yesterday's race, as it ensured the race ended in an orderly fashion and the result felt less like a lottery.

 

Looking back, the decision to call a safety car at Jeddah when Stroll retired was a warning sign, with Stroll's car in the service area the use of a full safety car seemed as unnecessary. The irony is that if these decisions were taken to 'improve the show' then it ultimately backfired, as the safety car at Jeddah allowed faster cars (most obviously Verstappen) to gain places during the pit window without having to overtake on track and the first red flag at Melbourne took away much of the strategic interest from the race, while the second red flag gave the event a drawn out conclusion and ultimately failed to produce a race finish under green flag conditions.

[Clatter]

If you watch live though, red flags are a tedious bore.

 

So is watching countless SC laps, wasting racing laps.

[ANF]

Lando Norris believes the race should have finished behind the safety car and says F1 should go back to rolling starts after a red flag: "It just feels like you can do such a good race and because someone is a bit silly and locks up in Turn 1, you just get your race finished ... I feel like a rolling start is better in these situations because you feel like you can try so hard ... I don't feel like it's fair for a lot of people who have done a good job and get taken out and it's race over." https://www.motorspo...calls/10454013/

[MikeTekRacing]

Lando Norris believes the race should have finished behind the safety car and says F1 should go back to rolling starts after a red flag: "It just feels like you can do such a good race and because someone is a bit silly and locks up in Turn 1, you just get your race finished ... I feel like a rolling start is better in these situations because you feel like you can try so hard ... I don't feel like it's fair for a lot of people who have done a good job and get taken out and it's race over." https://www.motorspo...calls/10454013/

I don’t agree. Starts are the same conditions yet drivers are more ok with them.

2 laps remaining is a great incentive for risk taking? Great, balance it with a proper punishment if you get it wrong and be consistent. Sainz moaning was childish. The penalty has to be harsh so drivers know what happens if you act like a moron

[WindmillRacer]

I don’t agree. Starts are the same conditions yet drivers are more ok with them.

2 laps remaining is a great incentive for risk taking? Great, balance it with a proper punishment if you get it wrong and be consistent. Sainz moaning was childish. The penalty has to be harsh so drivers know what happens if you act like a moron

 

The spectators: we love it: total carnage

The drivers: we hate it

 

Off course: it's all in the hand of te drivers, most of them take all risks to improve a few spots. Off course the race leader hates it: he's got everything to lose.

Regarding cold tyres: if it's possible to manage them during qualifying, rain, outlaps etc. why can't control them during (re)starts?

[Rinehart]

Personally I think red flags should be reserved for serious incidents where a driver needs medical assistance or clean up/barrier repair is likely to take more than 15 minutes.

None of the incidents in Australia came close to meeting that requirement. 

And red flags should be restarted as a rolling start, not standing start. Standing starts makes it seem like a 2nd race, rather than a resumption. 

I think even under VSC or SC, there should be a new flag that is waved 1 timing point before and after the incident zone and in that zone the pit lane speed limiter should be engaged (to prevent the fact that currently under SC or VSC cars can be moving very quickly between time points as the system currently measures time delta, not top speed).

That would make it ok for the circuit to be "live' despite work going on. If this is not ok, then surely a pit lane is not ok either...

[RedRabbit]

Personally I think red flags should be reserved for serious incidents where a driver needs medical assistance or clean up/barrier repair is likely to take more than 15 minutes.
None of the incidents in Australia came close to meeting that requirement.
And red flags should be restarted as a rolling start, not standing start. Standing starts makes it seem like a 2nd race, rather than a resumption.
I think even under VSC or SC, there should be a new flag that is waved 1 timing point before and after the incident zone and in that zone the pit lane speed limiter should be engaged (to prevent the fact that currently under SC or VSC cars can be moving very quickly between time points as the system currently measures time delta, not top speed).
That would make it ok for the circuit to be "live' despite work going on. If this is not ok, then surely a pit lane is not ok either...

All excellent, logical points.

[RedRabbit]

Lando Norris believes the race should have finished behind the safety car and says F1 should go back to rolling starts after a red flag: "It just feels like you can do such a good race and because someone is a bit silly and locks up in Turn 1, you just get your race finished ... I feel like a rolling start is better in these situations because you feel like you can try so hard ... I don't feel like it's fair for a lot of people who have done a good job and get taken out and it's race over." https://www.motorspo...calls/10454013/

I bet he isn't the only one. Pretty sure the drivers will be discussing this at the next race, and we'll get rolling restarts again.

Or hopefully just declare the race if there are only a handful of laps left.

[ARTGP]

The spectators: we love it: total carnage
The drivers: we hate it

Off course: it's all in the hand of te drivers, most of them take all risks to improve a few spots. Off course the race leader hates it: he's got everything to lose.
Regarding cold tyres: if it's possible to manage them during qualifying, rain, outlaps etc. why can't control them during (re)starts?

I don’t understand how any spectator could think that carnage was enjoyable. If F1 is attracting a crowd who wants to see a demolition derby, then they’ve made a grave mistake in the type of audience they are courting. Pileups are the exception, not the norm.

Edited by ARTGP, 09 April 2023 - 19:33.

[LolaB0860]

I don’t understand how any spectator could think that carnage was enjoyable. If F1 is attracting a crowd who wants to see a demolition derby, then they’ve made a grave mistake in the type of audience they are courting. Pileups are the exception, not the norm.

 

Liberty wants it to be NASCAR and expects fans to want NASCAR as well?

[MikeTekRacing]

I don’t understand how any spectator could think that carnage was enjoyable. If F1 is attracting a crowd who wants to see a demolition derby, then they’ve made a grave mistake in the type of audience they are courting. Pileups are the exception, not the norm.

I hate red flags for that reason - it can lead to unfair results.
My point was along the same line to limit chaos by having drivers balance the risk/reward with the help of harsh penalties for f* ups. Wanna be hero at a restart? Get it wrong and you get slapped hard.