71 replies to this topic

[GeoffR]

Sorryt if this has been mentioined elsewhere. It is now 30 years since Ayrton Senna's demolition of the field at the 1993 Donington GP. One of the amost drive that I have ever watched and a true showcase of his talent.

 

[Risil]

I have one quite detailed question about the race -- what tyre choices were available to drivers that day? Was it just slicks and wets? Were cut slicks available?

[Henri Greuter]

Sorryt if this has been mentioined elsewhere. It is now 30 years since Ayrton Senna's demolition of the field at the 1993 Donington GP. One of the amost drive that I have ever watched and a true showcase of his talent.

 

Sorryt if this has been mentioined elsewhere.

 

That was a race in which only 8 cars had traction control and the rest did not. And thus was left for dead by default.

Even Senna himself claimed (and rightfully) that his 1985 rain victory in Estoril was a better victory than Donington because back then he defeated a field that was in general equal if it came to technical aids available to drivers yes or no.

He himself was so humble to credit that Donington victory to technology assisting him that the majority of the field didn't have.

 

EDIT: Donington is looking so impressive but it is so overrated due to the fact that the field wasn't equal in dry weather but in rainy weather even less.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 11 April 2023 - 11:41.

[PayasYouRace]

Even without the Senna masterclass, it’s worth looking back just to see relatively modern F1 cars racing at Donington Park, which still looks about the same as it did back then. Watching qualifying in the dry is worth it too.

Also worth highlighting Rubens Barrichello’s drive that day, which was a real breakout performance. He ran in podium contention and his Jordan did not have traction control.

[jwill189]

Fun fact. Senna set the fastest lap by shortcutting the pits and not stopping as the weather kept changing from wet/dry. (For those new to the sport, there were no pit lane speed limits back then.)

[Risil]

Even without the Senna masterclass, it’s worth looking back just to see relatively modern F1 cars racing at Donington Park, which still looks about the same as it did back then. Watching qualifying in the dry is worth it too.

Remarkable how little has changed. However I can look at photos of Donington from the 1930s and not recognize a single corner or straight.

[PayasYouRace]

Remarkable how little has changed. However I can look at photos of Donington from the 1930s and not recognize a single corner or straight.

There was a very good thread in TNF about Starkey’s Bridge which brought up some wonderful videos of the venue over the years.

[Collombin]

Fun fact. Senna set the fastest lap by shortcutting the pits and not stopping as the weather kept changing from wet/dry. (For those new to the sport, there were no pit lane speed limits back then.)

If you remove that lap, he only did the 7th fastest lap of the race. Of course, all the best laps were done relatively late in the race though, and it's really Senna's first 2 or 3 laps that the legend was built on.

[Risil]

Not to mention Prost's first 5 or 6 pit stops

[KWSN - DSM]

If you remove that lap, he only did the 7th fastest lap of the race. Of course, all the best laps were done relatively late in the race though, and it's really Senna's first 2 or 3 laps that the legend was built on.

 

Which would have had Fittipaldi with 4th fastest in the Minardi, and the race actually had Minardi finishing 6th and 7th!! I am certain they did not have the better tech solutions.

 

Senna's Donnington win, and especially first laps to be are akin to how Schumacher were on another planet than all other drivers in Spain 1996, racing in the rain bring out the best in the best, yet another reason F1 never racing in the rain anymore is such a loss for the sport.

[Steve99]

I was there that day (in the press box with dad, so nice and dry) and while Senna’s drive was a great performance it was Barrichello that impressed me most. I returned to Donington last year and walked the perimeter looking for the old circuit. It’s an evocative place.

[man]

I recall Mario Andretti featuring in the BBC build-up and how disappointing I was that his son Michael was out before the end of the first lap since I was optimistic he was finally going to demonstrate his talent. I also remember a sense of inevitably that Senna was going to cruise to victory given the conditions. In addition, I recall the gut feeling I had that F1 was in for an extremely tedious season considering McLaren had customer HB engines with Williams being seconds faster than the opposition (made worse by their distinct number 1/2 driver policy). Motoring News/Autosport were reporting that Ferrari were five seconds off the pace in Estoril during pre-season testing. Generally therefore, the mood going into early 93 was anything but excitment. I think F1 was still feeling the loss of Mansell. The result at Donington was more a sense of relief that we didn't get what we were dreading, a foregone conclusion of another Newey inspired demonstration run. Interlagos and Donington '93 are memorable for me for those reasons.

Also remember switching to ITV at times for the football.

[Bleu]

If you remove that lap, he only did the 7th fastest lap of the race. Of course, all the best laps were done relatively late in the race though, and it's really Senna's first 2 or 3 laps that the legend was built on.

 

What was Senna's second-fastest lap on that day?
 

Eleven drivers set their individual FLs between laps 51 and 57, further nine between 17 and 21. Of the ten drivers who finished, Barbazza and Alboreto were in the latter group. The first group had de Cesaris, Warwick and Barrichello who dropped out in the race's latter half. Brundle, Katayama and Lehto had their FLs earlier due to them retiring before 17 laps were completed.

[Collombin]

What was Senna's second-fastest lap on that day?

1:20.413 on lap 54, apparently - slower than 4 of Hill's and 2 of Prost's.

Edited by Collombin, 11 April 2023 - 14:07.

[Gareth]

Fun fact. Senna set the fastest lap by shortcutting the pits and not stopping as the weather kept changing from wet/dry. (For those new to the sport, there were no pit lane speed limits back then.)

Hope they didn't give him the point for that.

[Beri]

Not to mention Prost's first 5 or 6 pit stops

Which was key to Sennas victory. I firmly believe to have seen lapcharts some 10 years ago that did show both Prost and Hill were quicker during the middle stages of the race. Well, at least when Prost wasn't pitting, that is.
Till this day, I am of the opinion that the victory was handed to Senna by Williams (failure to perform) themselves. But no one can take away that great first lap.

One sidenote; it surprised me that the 1993 race was the only (official) F1 race held at Donington. I was always under the impression that there had been more races.

Special mentions go to Barrichello (already named above), Herbert (who finished 4th) and Barbazza (6th) who were all competing in far more inferior material than one can imagine. Either the car itself was inferior or the lack of traction control, or even both.

[PayasYouRace]

Well Herbert was one of the traction control equipped drivers.

[Beri]

Was he? I recall that he was suffering from traction control issues. Could be wrong tho. But then still; 4th with a Lotus was a great result that season. And I believe Herbert repeated that feat a couple of times in 1993.

[milestone 11]

Remarkable how little has changed. However I can look at photos of Donington from the 1930s and not recognize a single corner or straight.

Spot the old hairpin!

[Steve99]

Even without the Senna masterclass, it’s worth looking back just to see relatively modern F1 cars racing at Donington Park, which still looks about the same as it did back then. Watching qualifying in the dry is worth it too.

Also worth highlighting Rubens Barrichello’s drive that day, which was a real breakout performance. He ran in podium contention and his Jordan did not have traction control.

I’m pretty sure the Jordan 193 did have TC.

Edited by Steve99, 11 April 2023 - 15:33.

[PayasYouRace]

I’m pretty sure the Jordan 193 did have TC.

Williams, McLaren and Lotus I know for sure had traction control. I assumed the other was Ferrari based on some commentary from later in the season. But I’d have also assumed Benetton.

Unless Henri was wrong and more than 8 cars had traction control.

[Viryfan]

Williams, McLaren and Lotus I know for sure had traction control. I assumed the other was Ferrari based on some commentary from later in the season. But I’d have also assumed Benetton.

Unless Henri was wrong and more than 8 cars had traction control.

Jordan had an off the shelf TC from Lucas.

https://www.independ...rt-1478940.html

Benetton only got their TC from Monaco onwards as their attempt to get their TC from TAG fell through at Imola so they had to wait for their Ford Electronics version.

Ligier had TC as they were becoming à Williams B team up until Cyril de Rouvre was jailed in France.

They had Williams TC, Gearbox and brakes.

Sauber probably had TC and also Footwork as they had TAG Electronics.

Edited by Viryfan, 11 April 2023 - 15:51.

[CSF]

Benetton's lack of TC means it's really interesting watching Schumacher hunting Senna and Prost at Kyalami in 93 without TC, he loses so much under traction out of the final and spends the rest of the lap charging back at them... only to lost it all again at the final corner.   A very good chassis it was.

[jonpollak]

Unsurprisingly, I was there.

I took the wife to qualifying too...'That's it, NEVER AGAIN' she said afterwards.

 

She held to that promise too.

Never went to another GP

 

Jp

[Henri Greuter]

I’m pretty sure the Jordan 193 did have TC.

I must look it up but I recall having read that Jordan used a TC system that was available on a Ford production car and that was modified for use on the F1 car.

A number of the top teams did not have TC yet since most of them focussed on getting active suspension work.

 

I recall having read the figure of only 8 cars in an edition of Autosport

 

 

 

Edit:

Anyway: my opinion on Senna is well known over here.

But his acknowledgements about Donington and not abusing to opportunity the put himself on a pedestal for that victory but instead credting it to the technology on his cars while so many others lacked all of that, for me is that one of the best ever moments within Senna's career, for which I have the utmost respect.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 11 April 2023 - 16:38.

[Cornholio]

I must look it up but I recall having read that Jordan used a TC system that was available on a Ford production car and that was modified for use on the F1 car.

A number of the top teams did not have TC yet since most of them focussed on getting active suspension work.

 

I recall having read the figure of only 8 cars in an edition of Autosport

 

I'm going purely off memory but I'm sure over the course of 1993 teams added TC and other driving aids during the year without necessarily having them at the start, so 8 cars at the time of round 3 might be accurate. Footwork specifically, I'm sure I remember them taking a big leap forward around Hungary/Spa that was attributed to them getting the TAG system... or maybe that was just the time they got it properly sorted for their car.

[Henri Greuter]

I'm going purely off memory but I'm sure over the course of 1993 teams added TC and other driving aids during the year without necessarily having them at the start, so 8 cars at the time of round 3 might be accurate. Footwork specifically, I'm sure I remember them taking a big leap forward around Hungary/Spa that was attributed to them getting the TAG system... or maybe that was just the time they got it properly sorted for their car.

 

I have similar recollections about that kind of developments of progress with teams over the season. Brazil and Donington were eye-openers for many teams.

 

Edit:

 

I also have some recollection about more teams using some kind of active suspension already at Donington. And somehow I still keep thinking about having read somewhere Jordan not having active yet but the TC they did have being way more valuable at Donington than any `active` could have been.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 11 April 2023 - 16:48.

[Dolph]

Not to mention Prost's first 5 or 6 pit stops

 

Much is made of how many pitsstops Prost made. Its was in fact 7.

 

But there are two factors that are never mentioned in this context:

 

1) the pit road cut the track significantly in that race so the penalty for making a stop was negligible

2) There was not speed limit in the pits back in 1993

 

This means that if you thought you were on the wrong tyre, it was a no-brainer to come and change them. You only risked a cold tyre phase in the first lap and someone from the pit crew fumbling the stop.

Edited by Dolph, 11 April 2023 - 17:07.

[midgrid]

I recall reading that Barrichello ran out of fuel because his new TC system unexpectedly increased his fuel consumption, but I'm not sure if that's accurate.

[PlatenGlass]

I think people sometimes remember the first lap and the winning margin and they think Senna dominated from start to finish. It didn't really happen like that. He did that great first lap to get the lead, but for a lot of the race he led Prost by a small amount. Then Senna had a delayed stop and this allowed Prost back into the lead, so it was actually a close race at this point. Only when Prost made the extra stops and stalled that Senna was able to win by so much. He won anyway, but he only dominated because Prost messed up, not because of some otherworldly driving skills.

[EvilPhil II]

I'm convinced that if Michael Andretti had just been more patient he would have been 2nd that day.  

 

If you watch the race rerun today and watch very carefully in the background of that first half a lap you can see Michael literally mirroring the moves that Ayrton is making.  If he had of finished 2nd then the rest of the season would have been very different. 

[Dolph]

I recall reading that Barrichello ran out of fuel because his new TC system unexpectedly increased his fuel consumption, but I'm not sure if that's accurate.

 

Eddie Jordan said that they ran Sasol sponsorship during that time. So they had to pour fuel out of original barrels into Sasol barrels. A mistake was made during this pouring, which meant Barrichello was under fueled.

Edited by Dolph, 11 April 2023 - 17:59.

[Dolph]

I'm convinced that if Michael Andretti had just been more patient he would have been 2nd that day.  

 

If you watch the race rerun today and watch very carefully in the background of that first half a lap you can see Michael literally mirroring the moves that Ayrton is making.  If he had of finished 2nd then the rest of the season would have been very different. 

 

How? He lacked pace. 

[Risil]

Eddie Jordan said that they ran Sasol sponsorship during that time. So they had to pour fuel out of original barrels into Sasol barrels. A mistake was made during this pouring, which meant Barrichello was under fueled.

Another A++ Jordan story!

[EvilPhil II]

How? He lacked pace.

I wouldn't blame you for believing that now. However at the time Andretti was beginning to show some serious pace at this stage of the season.

In the Sunday morning 30 min warm up practice session (you remember when you used to pay for a ticket and actually get rewarded with the cars on track as part of the events spectacle) Senna posted a 1:30.206 and Andretti posted 1:30.230.

[EvilPhil II]

Additionally, Senna started that race from 4th on the grid. While quietly, directly behind Senna, Andretti qualified an impressive 6th place on a circuit many drivers were unfamiliar with in their current F1 machinery.

By turn 1 Senna was 5th and Andretti 6th.
After the esses and into the old harpin (turn 5?) Senna was 3rd and Andretti 6th.
By turn 6 Andretti passed Schumacher round the outside for 5th place.
By turn 7 (Red Gate?) Senna took Hill for 2nd and Andretti was right behind the 4th place Sauber.
And in turn 8 Andretti was passing the Sauber for 4th place when unfortunately they touched and Andretti was in the gravel and out the race.

In my opinion he would have been 4th by end of lap 1 and possibly 3rd by end of lap 2.

Whether he would have been able to pass Prost who was much quicker than people recall that day I am not sure.

Edited by EvilPhil II, 11 April 2023 - 20:08.

[Dolph]

I wouldn't blame you for believing that now. However at the time Andretti was beginning to show some serious pace at this stage of the season.

In the Sunday morning 30 min warm up practice session (you remember when you used to pay for a ticket and actually get rewarded with the cars on track as part of the events spectacle) Senna posted a 1:30.206 and Andretti posted 1:30.230.

 

 

Additionally, Senna started that race from 4th on the grid. While quietly, directly behind Senna, Andretti qualified an impressive 6th place on a circuit many drivers were unfamiliar with in their current F1 machinery.

By turn 1 Senna was 5th and Andretti 6th.
After the esses and into the old harpin (turn 5?) Senna was 3rd and Andretti 6th.
By turn 6 Andretti passed Schumacher round the outside for 5th place.
By turn 7 (Red Gate?) Senna took Hill for 2nd and Andretti was right behind the 4th place Sauber.
And in turn 8 Andretti was passing the Sauber for 4th place when unfortunately they touched and Andretti was in the gravel and out the race.

In my opinion he would have been 4th by end of lap 1 and possibly 3rd by end of lap 2.

Whether he would have been able to pass Prost who was much quicker than people recall that day I am not sure.

 

 

I was not addressing the claim Andretti would have finished 2nd. I was dismissing the claim that this result would have somehow turned around his season.

[EvilPhil II]

I was not addressing the claim Andretti would have finished 2nd. I was dismissing the claim that this result would have somehow turned around his season.

I think it would have made him less desperate. And perhaps allowed him to find his feet more gradually without the team questioning his position as race driver. The issue being that season that McLaren had hired 3 drivers having expected Senna to take a sabbatical.

I'm certainly no Andretti fan boy. I cheered on Senna in 1993 and Montoya in 1999/2000.

However, Andretti's 1994 cart season was impressive in the new Reynard and without the setup support of his father.

[Pieter]

You can rewatch the Grand Prix, it's on Youtube and Dailymotion. With commentary by Murray Walker and James Hunt.

 

Part 1: https://www.dailymot...m/video/x4w04ws

 

Part 2: https://www.dailymot...m/video/x4vvnts

 

Part 3: https://www.dailymot...m/video/x4vulbh

[Boxerevo]

The point of that first lap, is about being absolutely from the limit in unknow grip limit.

 

A display of absolute commitment.

 

A effort to quickly put the Williams drivers into submission.

 

So it shows a lot of courage, technique, knowledge of the track, a car with perfect setup through the weekend for rain.

 

He is pushing TOO hard there but looking controlled, all those overtakes looked controlled but he was pushing so hard.

 

Qualifying results:

 

1 2 Alain Prost WILLIAMS RENAULT 1:10.458

2 0 Damon Hill WILLIAMS RENAULT 1:10.762

3 5 Michael Schumacher BENETTON FORD 1:12.008

4 8 Ayrton Senna MCLAREN FORD 1:12.107

5 29 Karl Wendlinger SAUBER 1:12.738

Edited by Boxerevo, 12 April 2023 - 06:57.

[Henri Greuter]

I think it would have made him less desperate. And perhaps allowed him to find his feet more gradually without the team questioning his position as race driver. The issue being that season that McLaren had hired 3 drivers having expected Senna to take a sabbatical.

I'm certainly no Andretti fan boy. I cheered on Senna in 1993 and Montoya in 1999/2000.

However, Andretti's 1994 cart season was impressive in the new Reynard and without the setup support of his father.

 

 

Interesting observations for sure and indeed an interesting :"what if" theory with regards to the continuation of 1993.

 

I also agree with the fact that Michael had a great season at CART in 1994. But due to the Penske whitewash that season and the suprises by rookie Jacques Villeneuve much of all the Michael Andretti achievements of that season are overlooked and not rated.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 12 April 2023 - 07:15.

[FirstWatt]

I do not think that Senna took much advantage from a TC in his passes in the first lap. He hadn't even a better start than the cars around him.

He was sublime under braking and in fast corners.

 

I disagree strongly that at least the first lap was not something very, very special.

[absinthedude]

I had the chance to be there and didn't go. Though it would have been expensive and actually getting there wouldn't have been easy....but it was discussed between myself and a cousin. For reference I don't drive, and public transport to motor racing tracks is paradoxically abysmal. 

 

What I do remember in the run up to the race was that I lived down the road from a chap who had been test rider for Vincent motorcycles. He remembered bombing around Donington pre-war and was thrilled that the circuit was going to host a World Championship Grand Prix...full of nostalgia, he was....because he'd been there in the late 30s though I don't think he saw Nuvolari. We didn't watch the race together but I did dub a VHS copy for him and he later talked about how much of the track was similar to what he remembered and how he had an "off" at the curves once. 

 

When he died some years later I recall a small treasure trove of old Vincents was found in his garden shed. A bit of an oddball and a nice chap, as most oddballs are...Mr Davis or Davies as I recall. Drove a silver Alfa Romeo when he wasn't riding motorbikes....which he did well into old age. 

 

As for the race itself, a masterclass from Senna and I am not one to shy away from criticising his over forceful driving at times. But he was totally clean that day, delivered a memorable performance and Tom Wheatcroft's grin on the podium at finally succeeding in getting a grand prix for his circuit was priceless. It clearly meant the world to him. 

[Beri]

I do not think that Senna took much advantage from a TC in his passes in the first lap. He hadn't even a better start than the cars around him.

He was sublime under braking and in fast corners.

 

I disagree strongly that at least the first lap was not something very, very special.

 

I cant say I see anyone up here denying the first lap as being nothing but great. I think everyone can agree upon the fact that Senna just had more confidence in that downpour and just knew his car better at the start of the race which made him put his car in places where his competitors never expected this. And thus presented us with that great first lap that is rightfully hailed till this day.

[blackmme]

You can rewatch the Grand Prix, it's on Youtube and Dailymotion. With commentary by Murray Walker and James Hunt.

 

Part 1: https://www.dailymot...m/video/x4w04ws

 

Part 2: https://www.dailymot...m/video/x4vvnts

 

Part 3: https://www.dailymot...m/video/x4vulbh

 

So sad listening to that and knowing that James only had just over two more months to live.

 

Regards Mike

[Spillage]

1:20.413 on lap 54, apparently - slower than 4 of Hill's and 2 of Prost's.

I'm guessing Senna already had a big lead when track conditions were at their most dry, and didn't have much reason to push.

[Collombin]

Yes, he was 80 seconds ahead of Barrichello at the end of that lap.

[George Costanza]

Which would have had Fittipaldi with 4th fastest in the Minardi, and the race actually had Minardi finishing 6th and 7th!! I am certain they did not have the better tech solutions.

Senna's Donnington win, and especially first laps to be are akin to how Schumacher were on another planet than all other drivers in Spain 1996, racing in the rain bring out the best in the best, yet another reason F1 never racing in the rain anymore is such a loss for the sport.

I think Michael's win in Spain of 1996 is a little more impressive than Ayrton's 1993.

[Ferrim]

I'm convinced that if Michael Andretti had just been more patient he would have been 2nd that day.

If you watch the race rerun today and watch very carefully in the background of that first half a lap you can see Michael literally mirroring the moves that Ayrton is making. If he had of finished 2nd then the rest of the season would have been very different.

What Andretti showed is that the McLaren, that day and under those conditions, was a very good car and not far behind the Williams. I don't think he would have finished 2nd, though: if he hadn't made contact with Wendlinger, he would have binned it somewhere else. The conditions were poor and he was never at ease with that car.

Edited by Ferrim, 12 April 2023 - 21:28.

[Hrco42]

Fun fact. Senna set the fastest lap by shortcutting the pits and not stopping as the weather kept changing from wet/dry. (For those new to the sport, there were no pit lane speed limits back then.)

If going through the pits was faster than going on track, why didn't everyone do it every lap?