49 replies to this topic

[Roughy]

I read an article the other day where an ex-driver, either Hill or Herbert, claimed that drivers like Hamilton are missing a trick by refusing to take sim racing more serious?

Does anyone think that had someone like Lewis jumped on the bandwagon he would have honed his skills even more?

Are these skills actually transferable to the real thing, if so how, does it improve hand/eye coordination, mental sharpness, etc?

[Roughy]

It was Herbert.

https://f1i.com/news...se-herbert.html

Edited by Roughy, 15 April 2023 - 15:47.

[Roughy]

https://youtu.be/PR7ZqID35WA

Bit of fun between Lando & George, I noticed George dominates whenever he races other drivers on the sim.

Edited by Roughy, 15 April 2023 - 15:56.

[ANF]

I thought you were talking about Alexander.

[ARTGP]

Lando Norris seems to think so: Lando Norris | Why Are Simulators Important? - YouTube

[Dolph]

Lando Norris seems to think so: Lando Norris | Why Are Simulators Important? - YouTube

 

Its an advertisement for the sim hardware producer.

[404KF2]

I remember Villeneuve Jr. saying he used the ancient sims to learn the tracks before he got into F1 in 1996.

[Roughy]

I'd guess Lewis gets all the prep he needs from the Merc Sim.
The younger drivers do sim racing for fun. It's just how they relax between GPs, not preperation/training.

Slightly on-topic. This appeared in my recommendations yesterday.
https://www.youtube....h?v=OiKjgxDuYhI

I agree that it's mainly for fun but I don't think it's a coincidence that Verstappen is an absolute monster in sim racing, I think his skills are somewhat transferable. If all drivers had a race in any car, I'd put my money on Verstappen & Alonso to stand out from the rest.

[blacky]

ALO does hardly ever sim work in the factory, so I do not think that every driver profits automatically from it, otherwise everyone would do it.

[Roughy]

ALO does hardly ever sim work in the factory, so I do not think that every driver profits automatically from it, otherwise everyone would do it.

No, but Alonso does a lot of karting doesn't he? Great practice for F1 racing and keeps you super sharp.

[SilverArrow31]

Hamilton not doing sim work is a bit outdated and I saw a few articles about it this week. He started using it more in 2021 for obvious reasons and continues to do so I believe.

Edit: ahh this is about sim racing not sim work. Thats a fair comment then.

Edited by SilverArrow31, 16 April 2023 - 10:45.

[pdac]

Isn't this like saying that Newey should be doing much more design work on computer. Isn't the answer that, for those with outstanding natural talent, it's all about what suits the individual.

[Hati]

I remember Villeneuve Jr. saying he used the ancient sims to learn the tracks before he got into F1 in 1996.

I don't think those old sims were accurate enough to really teach how to drive a track. I do believe that they would help the process of learning the track, you drive enough laps with simulator so you know that after that straight comes hard corner to the right and fast corner to the left. Then you can consentrate on getting those corners right as soon as you get to the track without wasting laps to learning the layout.

 

With modern simulators I read comments like "I was at the track in the morning with this same car and I could feel that same bumb then" which leads me to believe that they can actually help you to learn that track.

[edit] And simulator is very different thing from a racing game, even if a racing game can be a simulator too. I've not played resent F1 games but I'm pretty sure they don't help more than those old simulators, the sims F1 teams have at their factories are totally different thing.

Edited by Hati, 16 April 2023 - 11:40.

[ARTGP]

ALO does hardly ever sim work in the factory, so I do not think that every driver profits automatically from it, otherwise everyone would do it.

 

The factory sim is quite different from a stationary home sim. Apparently Alonso does a LOT of the latter but does not like the former. I read somewhere that he gets motion sickness in the F1 simulators which would explain his reluctance. 

Edited by ARTGP, 16 April 2023 - 15:33.

[ARTGP]

Isn't this like saying that Newey should be doing much more design work on computer. Isn't the answer that, for those with outstanding natural talent, it's all about what suits the individual.

 

I don't think so. I think it's more like saying, Newey should "practice his craft more". 

 

That's essentially what guys like Verstappen/Norris are doing with this sim stuff. While it's all virtual, they are practing their race craft (how you drive around others, how you position your car to overtake others) as well as maintaining focus over long distances and under pressure.  

Edited by ARTGP, 16 April 2023 - 15:38.

[JeePee]

https://youtu.be/PR7ZqID35WA

Bit of fun between Lando & George, I noticed George dominates whenever he races other drivers on the sim.

The F1 games are not sims though.

You can learn a lot of consistency and fighting others in the sim. Also technique, but this is something F1 drivers don't really need.

[Roughy]

The F1 games are not sims though.

You can learn a lot of consistency and fighting others in the sim. Also technique, but this is something F1 drivers don't really need.

Yeah, these games aren't, but there are other sims out there that are lauded for their realism. Still, racing games keep you sharp, especially with race craft.

[ARTGP]

The F1 games are not sims though.

You can learn a lot of consistency and fighting others in the sim. Also technique, but this is something F1 drivers don't really need.

“But this is something F1 drivers don’t really need”.

That’s debatable. Did you miss Australia? 😂

Edited by ARTGP, 16 April 2023 - 16:36.

[MikeTekRacing]

I don't think so. I think it's more like saying, Newey should "practice his craft more".

That's essentially what guys like Verstappen/Norris are doing with this sim stuff. While it's all virtual, they are practing their race craft (how you drive around others, how you position your car to overtake others) as well as maintaining focus over long distances and under pressure.

Max is a terrific sim racer. And what’s amazing is that he does it with very different cars, learning/adapting new skills incredibly well. Also, if you watch his races - he is practicing his aggressive style and tests crazy overtakes - but it’s really cool to see it from the onboard how he prepares those moves

[JeePee]

“But this is something F1 drivers don’t really need”.

That’s debatable. Did you miss Australia?

I was talking about technique. Racing around others sure can't harm half the field though!

[ARTGP]

I was talking about technique. Racing around others sure can't harm half the field though!

 

ah yeah I misunderstood 

[Primo]

I read an article the other day where an ex-driver, either Hill or Herbert, claimed that drivers like Hamilton are missing a trick by refusing to take sim racing more serious?

Does anyone think that had someone like Lewis jumped on the bandwagon he would have honed his skills even more?

Are these skills actually transferable to the real thing, if so how, does it improve hand/eye coordination, mental sharpness, etc?

Definitely! Especially when you consider how little they drive the real cars. Even the (best) publicly available simulators are now good enough give a realistic image of how a real car would behave in various situations, including setup. Also - in which other sport do you go weeks without any practicing of your main tasks? 

We have already seen plenty of example where eSports guys steps into a real car for the first time and is up to speed in no time.

[PitViperRacing]

Definitely! Especially when you consider how little they drive the real cars. Even the (best) publicly available simulators are now good enough give a realistic image of how a real car would behave in various situations, including setup. Also - in which other sport do you go weeks without any practicing of your main tasks?

We have already seen plenty of example where eSports guys steps into a real car for the first time and is up to speed in no time.

I'd love to see motorsports (both f1 and other series) look more towards sims to identify young talent.

Great way to make the sport more accessible at the junior levels.

[Roughy]

I'd love to see motorsports (both f1 and other series) look more towards sims to identify young talent.

Great way to make the sport more accessible at the junior levels.

Yep, much cheaper than karting, that Jarno Opmeer is a wizard on the F1 game, he isn't doing bad for himself.

[noikeee]

There's a few different layers to this I think.

First I think we're seeing the first generation of drivers that has really grown with realistic simracing as a natural hobby, as they went through karting and the early junior formulas. Sims have on been a gradual development over a few decades, it's hard to pinpoint when exactly did they become good enough to perfect real life racing skills, but I think beginning of the 2010s is when we started seeing a lot of pro drivers getting involved in it, lots of them randomly doing casual iRacing, Kubica involved in the online RBR scene before his accident etc

Obviously there's that story about JV doing a few races on the PlayStation back in 96 in whatever official F1 game of the time, but that's something else IMO. That's not really simracing and just getting a base idea of track layouts.

Back to what seemed to be the beginning of this all in the early 2010s - iRacing in particular seems to have gradually attracted a lot of pros, I guess due to the online aspect of it, the ease of mass multiplayer which made it a much more viable way to practice racecraft by doing lots of online races. Whilst the available hardware itself made a few big jumps in development too, which made it more immersive and capable of giving much better tuned feedback. Meanwhile while this is all happening, social media develops and it becomes more and more transparent real drivers are doing this, and that they get ever more important fan engagement if they share their sessions in the home sim.

Then there's the Covid break which was a massive boom as *everyone* tried sims, and lots of those who had never tried it became fans and stuck with it. And at the same time the absolute cyborg that is Max reaches the top of F1.

As a fan of simracing I think Max's success might be slightly misleading. He is effectively using his free time to practice yes, but it's still quite the indirect practice. A real life F1 car will have nothing to do with the cars he's racing on iRacing, and is certainly nowhere near as good a preparation as laps on the actual factory sim, with extremely fine tuned data about the actual car and the actual tracks he's gonna race. However it all still seems to help keep him sharp - like others have suggested, it seems to fill the same purpose as karting on their free time as some other F1 drivers do. It's great for keeping racecraft sharp and also about focusing on thinking about the engineering side of it, exploiting physics on certain games will have nothing to do with maximizing the setup of a real life car, but it does make the driver have to think about car balance, how to adapt approach to corners, all that.

What I think is misleading is I'm not sure this is something others can or should copy. It seems to be something Max genuinely loves to do in his free time. To ask other drivers to play lots of hours of computer games (which is what this still is no matter how realistic and seriously we take it), in their free time, as a necessary part of prep for their job, seems... forced and wrong. Surely it works for Max because he enjoys it, not because it's a chore he has to fulfill. I'm also not so sure this is necessarily part of Max's box of secrets. Just because the world's currently best driver does it, doesn't mean automatically this would work to make other drivers better.

Then to ask people at the end of their careers, that never did sims, to go play them all day long, is surely taking the piss. Lewis is going to decline no matter what he does because he's old. No forcing yourself to do whatever the cool kids do now will stop the unstoppable march of time. It's okay, we're all getting old too and we're all gonna die. Just wanted to end my post on a cheerful note.

[Primo]

Then to ask people at the end of their careers, that never did sims, to go play them all day long, is surely taking the piss. Lewis is going to decline no matter what he does because he's old. No forcing yourself to do whatever the cool kids do now will stop the unstoppable march of time. It's okay, we're all getting old too and we're all gonna die. Just wanted to end my post on a cheerful note.

I don't think anyone is asking of Lewis to take up simracing, but the OP question was if Lewis, for instance, would benefit from using a simulator. He would. 

[noikeee]

I don't think anyone is asking of Lewis to take up simracing, but the OP question was if Lewis, for instance, would benefit from using a simulator. He would.

The OP is referring to Herbert who seemed to suggest Lewis should take up simracing.

Apparently he doesn't even like the official Mercedes sim, but these are two different things.

[ARTGP]

The OP is referring to Herbert who seemed to suggest Lewis should take up simracing.

Apparently he doesn't even like the official Mercedes sim, but these are two different things.

 

Hamilton claimed that he can't feel the Mercedes properly because of the seating position. Sim racing relies far more on visual/aural cues than seat of the pants feel because the cockpit is stationary. It makes you wonder if there isn't something to be gained there. 

Edited by ARTGP, 17 April 2023 - 00:22.

[RedRabbit]

I think that karting between races is probably better preparation than sim racing. The physical effort of even driving a kart can't possibly be replicated with a sim.

Sim racing is clearly just an enjoyable way for real F1 drivers to spend downtime.

Before 2009, these guys would all be at a test track driving endless laps in real cars between races.

[TomNokoe]

After the in-season testing ban, I think they are ideal for keeping the drivers sharp.

 

Hamilton claimed that he can't feel the Mercedes properly because of the seating position. Sim racing relies far more on visual/aural cues than seat of the pants feel because the cockpit is stationary. It makes you wonder if there isn't something to be gained there. 

I wonder if elite sim-racing dulls this physical instinct somewhat, and I mean this positively, in that drivers are less sensitive and have a wider operating window because they have built a new instinct in trusting their car to stick to the road no matter what. Norris/Ricciardo perhaps an extreme example?

Edited by TomNokoe, 17 April 2023 - 08:52.

[P123]

Hamilton claimed that he can't feel the Mercedes properly because of the seating position. Sim racing relies far more on visual/aural cues than seat of the pants feel because the cockpit is stationary. It makes you wonder if there isn't something to be gained there. 

 

For the likes of professional track racers, like Max and Lando, I suspect it is their track racing skills and experience that is of benefit in sims, rather than their sim racing experience being a benefit on track.  I'm sure it's not absolute, and there is a small trade off either way, but if sim racing was that transferable to the real world, then they'd all be getting snapped up to racing contracts.  So far it hasn't replaced the more traditional feeder series.

[Risil]

Then to ask people at the end of their careers, that never did sims, to go play them all day long, is surely taking the piss. Lewis is going to decline no matter what he does because he's old. No forcing yourself to do whatever the cool kids do now will stop the unstoppable march of time. It's okay, we're all getting old too and we're all gonna die. Just wanted to end my post on a cheerful note.

 

I thought you were being a bit melodramatic here but then I opened the Autosport front page and saw that Lewis is envisioning following in the footsteps of Stirling Moss and remaining with Merecdes until he dies aged 90.

[Peat]

After the in-season testing ban, I think they are ideal for keeping the drivers sharp.

 

I wonder if elite sim-racing dulls this physical instinct somewhat, and I mean this positively, in that drivers are less sensitive and have a wider operating window because they have built a new instinct in trusting their car to stick to the road no matter what. Norris/Ricciardo perhaps an extreme example?

 

Daniel Morad, a GT3 racer of repute and avid sim-racer recently said he can't use a particular sim title because to be fast on it requires an un-realistic braking technique. Depending on what sim you use, you could certainly end up with some ingrained bad habits. 

On the whole though, I think they are great. Just the ability to exercise your racing brain over and over and experiencing an endless set of wheel to wheel of scenarios is largely of benefit to most racers, i would say.  

[noikeee]

I think that karting between races is probably better preparation than sim racing. The physical effort of even driving a kart can't possibly be replicated with a sim.

Sim racing is clearly just an enjoyable way for real F1 drivers to spend downtime.

Before 2009, these guys would all be at a test track driving endless laps in real cars between races.

Uh, I wonder if it is the other way around and simracing is "better" than karting because Max can do 10 races in a day (and win them all, the freakish bastard), without overly physically straining himself.

They do a separate specialised weights+cardio training scheme to get physically ready. It's probably not optimal to get lots of hours of karting on top of that, whilst your muscles rest.

[Roughy]

After the in-season testing ban, I think they are ideal for keeping the drivers sharp.

I wonder if elite sim-racing dulls this physical instinct somewhat, and I mean this positively, in that drivers are less sensitive and have a wider operating window because they have built a new instinct in trusting their car to stick to the road no matter what. Norris/Ricciardo perhaps an extreme example?

And Russell, it was showcased in Jeddah, he was unbelievable through the fast sections, that takes commitment, Hamilton was severely lacking there for two seasons in a row.

[Nemo1965]

It is interesting, because I see a paralel with... ice-skating and inline skating and short track-iceskating. Last two forms are of course much easier to organise and host (for one you only need slick asphalt, for the second a relative small gym can be used). But for about two decades the Dutch ice-skating coaches threated their charges with fire and brimstone about doing in-line skating in the summer (when, obviously, there is no ice, even in the Netherlands). Because it was consired detrimental to the correct technique. Then several North-American skaters (Heiden, Cruz, Davis) laid waste to that idea. Now all Dutch skaters roll their asses off on inline-skates in the summer.

 

The same applied to short-track ice-skating. In the Netherlands, once you opted for one or the other (the other being long distance-skating), that was it, never the twain shall meet. But in the last ten years several (especially female) skaters have made the transfer, up to winning Gold Medals and championships.

 

Back to simracing: in the last twenty years I've read a lot of negative comments about how simracing would be not useful or even damaging for people who want to become professional drivers. What Max has shown at least, is that it is not detrimental. Of course N=1, but I would say: Perfect Practive makes Perfect, and if you can practice hours a day for quite a modest investment... why take the risk of not taking the practice?

Edited by Nemo1965, 17 April 2023 - 11:09.

[Primo]

There are quite a few components involved in being fast and one of them, car control, cannot really be practiced in a sim since a real time event involves so many parameters that a sim would just anticipate rather than calculate. That involves, for instance, changes in track surface. Car control is not really a huge part in outright speed though. I know it might seem contradictory, but you only need "car control" when you need to save something and when you need to save something, that laptime is already gone. Something that do affect the laptime, a lot, is confidence. Having great car control can give you confidence, but knowing the limits gives you more of it. That is where a sim will help you. Find the limits while using different lines and approaches. Then repeat. 

[Nathan]

ALO does hardly ever sim work in the factory, so I do not think that every driver profits automatically from it, otherwise everyone would do it.

 

ALO had Ferrari install a second sim in Spain.  But doesn't he always get another Spaniard hired for that duty at the factory? Fred just wants to be at home between races.

Edited by Nathan, 17 April 2023 - 13:28.

[PitViperRacing]

For the likes of professional track racers, like Max and Lando, I suspect it is their track racing skills and experience that is of benefit in sims, rather than their sim racing experience being a benefit on track. I'm sure it's not absolute, and there is a small trade off either way, but if sim racing was that transferable to the real world, then they'd all be getting snapped up to racing contracts. So far it hasn't replaced the more traditional feeder series.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but I do wonder how much of that is simply down to the motorsport establishment sticking to what they know/hoe they've always done it.

There have been some sim drivers that have jumped into real racing series with extremely.impressive results.

[Nathan]

I wonder if elite sim-racing dulls this physical instinct somewhat

 

Does it have to dull, or is it one more layer?  Kind of to Roughy's point, if it works in the sim, and you trust that, then you can send it in real life.  If you have to rely on just the feel in that moment you don't send it if you're not sure.  So maybe trustworthy sims provide an added level of trust.  It also allows drivers to experiment without risk.  I think to the Brazilian GP in the rain won by VER who took very different lines.  Now, I don't attribute that to sim'ing because MSC did that 25 years prior, and at the time I was dumbfounded VER was the only driver going wide off line.  But, my point is you can try different things with no risk on a sim, and it seems these sims are pretty accurate dynamically. Practice overtakes, plan B lines & braking points...  I have to think the likes of VER, NOR etc have at least once transplanted something they pulled off in the sim on the real track.

I have friends that endurance race junkers in the US/Canada and they do a lot of lap traffic and side-by-side simulation on their iRacing rigs and progressed to practicing fuel saving with it.  Whenever they are posting races on Facebook they are holding a trophy, so...  That kind of 'experience' would take many years to develop the old fashion way.  They sped up the learning curve and it only cost them electricity.

Edited by Nathan, 17 April 2023 - 13:49.

[KinkyMasta]

ALO had Ferrari install a second sim in Spain.  But doesn't he always get another Spaniard hired for that duty at the factory? Fred just wants to be at home between races.

 

ALO has been spotted in iRacing a few times:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=XNXCHOItUmo

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=QDCaqsYBSgU

[Nathan]

Alonso's on track creativity is too honed, developed and trusted for me not to believe he lives on it.  He just knows too many 'spots' to do some magic where most never think a spot exists.

Edited by Nathan, 17 April 2023 - 13:48.

[Cliff]

Does it have to dull, or is it one more layer?  Kind of to Roughy's point, if it works in the sim, and you trust that, then you can send it in real life.  If you have to rely on just the feel in that moment you don't send it if you're not sure.  So maybe trustworthy sims provide an added level of trust.  It also allows drivers to experiment without risk.  I think to the Brazilian GP in the rain won by VER who took very different lines.  Now, I don't attribute that to sim'ing because MSC did that 25 years prior, and at the time I was dumbfounded VER was the only driver going wide off line.  But, my point is you can try different things with no risk on a sim, and it seems these sims are pretty accurate dynamically. Practice overtakes, plan B lines & braking points...  I have to think the likes of VER, NOR etc have at least once transplanted something they pulled off in the sim on the real track.

I have friends that endurance race junkers in the US/Canada and they do a lot of lap traffic and side-by-side simulation on their iRacing rigs and progressed to practicing fuel saving with it.  Whenever they are posting races on Facebook they are holding a trophy, so...  That kind of 'experience' would take many years to develop the old fashion way.  They sped up the learning curve and it only cost them electricity.

 

Practice before Spa 2015 where Max got "overtake of the year" on Nasr.

 

[Roughy]

https://youtu.be/-rC81KMPM9Q

[Roughy]

Why are my links not opening up like everyone's, on other forums they open up fine.

[Ivanhoe]

Why are my links not opening up like everyone's, on other forums they open up fine.

It normally works if you use the URL code in the browser (youtube.com) instead of the youtu.be URL, so in your case "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rC81KMPM9Q" should work, as seen below. I noticed that embedding youtube video's doesn't work when posting from my iPhone or iPad.

 

[Roughy]

It normally works if you use the URL code in the browser (youtube.com) instead of the youtu.be URL, so in your case "" should work, as seen below.

https://www.youtube....h?v=-rC81KMPM9Q

On my YouTube app I just click share and it normally works fine mate?

[Ivanhoe]

Yeah well, I'm far from an expert on these kind of things, just wanted to share with you how it works for me. Using the 'share link' somehow never worked for me on this board. 

[kumo7]

Norris is talking about that his sim is the important tool for him to climb into the Formula one cockpit.
Lewis is already there, so as Fernando, so the do not need sim any more. Lewis and Alonso dis carting to get where they are.

Norris says that, as Formula one demands drivers to be much younger than its previous periods, drivers needs other tools to prepare themselves for the move. The current drivers have much shorter preparation periods to get there or find out not able to.

But this does not mean if a sim racer is a better racing driver or not. It may or may not. Time will tell. What Norris is saying is that, if a twelve years old kid wants to climb into a formula one cockpit, he needs something more than a cart, or next to his carting experiences. I think it makes sense.

But his later statement on its appearances, carbon fiber finish and so on, tells me that it will not make after all too much differences!! Perhaps just a measurable differences or make it or not…

Edited by kumo7, 18 April 2023 - 23:56.

[Primo]

Yeah well, I'm far from an expert on these kind of things, just wanted to share with you how it works for me. Using the 'share link' somehow never worked for me on this board. 

 

Yes, the Youtube share button creates a youtu.be link instead of youtube.com. This board does not recognize the former.