107 replies to this topic

[milestone 11]

Why does this come as no surprise? https://www.telegrap...shaila-ann-rao/
 
(Paywall; from Racing365.com:)
 

According to The Telegraph, allegations of bullying and sexism have been made by the FIA's former interim secretary general for motorsport Shaila-Ann Rao.

The report states that a letter sent by Rao contains "numerous instances of sexist behaviour" which took place prior to her leaving the role in December 2022.

It is also reported that the claims were never investigated, and that Telegraph Sport spoke to individuals - including 'FIA staff, elected officials, World Motor Sport Council members and stewards' - who allude to "erratic and bullying behaviour behind the scenes".

Rao had declined to comment on the reports, and an FIA spokesperson told RacingNews365.com: "Shaila-Ann Rao was a temporary director at the FIA from June 1 2022 and then became interim secretary general for motor sport. In Nov 2022 it was decided by both parties that she would leave that position. Mutual privacy terms have been agreed as is commonplace in business. Neither party has made a reference to the FIA Ethics Committee."

[ConsiderAndGo]

Pretends to be shocked.

[ARTGP]

Pretends to be shocked.

 

 

 

this is me behaving. I'll get banned for....oh never mind...

Edited by ARTGP, 25 April 2023 - 16:33.

[H0R]

So far he is accused but not convicted but man, the guy has a talent to get into the press for all the wrong reasons, doesn't he? 

[ARTGP]

So far he is accused but not convicted but man, the guy has a talent to get into the press for all the wrong reasons, doesn't he? 

 

Accused by someone whose profession is legal counsel.  Of course I don't mean to jump to conclusions, but the shoe fits....for many...many...many reasons....

[PayasYouRace]

Seems to come with the territory, doesn't it. Apart from Todt.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

I’ll wait for more evidence before I can say whether or not he did what he is being accused of doing. Nowadays almost anything can be classed as bullying and sexism can also be claimed for some innocuous things.

[pacificquay]

Given that none of us have been party to any of the events I tread carefully, but a woman making these sort of allegations must be believed.

 

Therefore it is incumbent on him to step down while an investigation is carried out.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Given that none of us have been party to any of the events I tread carefully, but a woman making these sort of allegations must be believed.

Therefore it is incumbent on him to step down while an investigation is carried out.

Whoa, so just because a woman makes an allegation we automatically have to believe her? Do you not see how that sets a dangerous precedent in general? Aren’t we all equal in the eyes of the law? If we are then her gender shouldn’t be a reason why we automatically believe her or the opposite. We are dealing with human beings, capable of lies and deceit, I’d rather that the due processes and investigations are conducted so that a fair and just conclusion can be reached.

[loki]

Anyone paying attention could glean from his public statements those two characteristics.   Plus the culture and ruling structure over there where that behavior is a feature not a bug.

[milestone 11]

There is more than sufficient corroboration to believe the allegations have some basis in fact.

[ArnageWRC]

Looks like another smear campaign, and those in F1 want him out......

[ARTGP]

 Aren’t we all equal in the eyes of the law? 

 

This is ironic for many reasons. 

Edited by ARTGP, 25 April 2023 - 20:13.

[Dolph]

Given that none of us have been party to any of the events I tread carefully, but a woman making these sort of allegations must be believed.

 

Therefore it is incumbent on him to step down while an investigation is carried out.

 

In 99% of the cases it is women making these sorts of allegations.

[FNG]

Given that none of us have been party to any of the events I tread carefully, but a woman making these sort of allegations must be believed.

 

Therefore it is incumbent on him to step down while an investigation is carried out.

 

so guilty until proven innocent? Too much of this garbage floating around. If he is guilty take it from there. But step down? What on earth for?

[MikeTekRacing]

Well, until this is changed, there is nothing to know.

Mutual privacy terms have been agreed as is commonplace in business. Neither party has made a reference to the FIA Ethics Committee

[jonpollak]

In his world Women are second class citizens.

‘You can take the boy out of the country… ya can’t take the country out of the boy’

Jp

[pdac]

so guilty until proven innocent? Too much of this garbage floating around. If he is guilty take it from there. But step down? What on earth for?

 

That's the way it works now. If he carries on and is found at fault, then there will be cries of why he was left to carry on once the allegations were public. So you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

[LolaB0860]

Whether or not he is at fault, this says it all

 

It is also reported that the claims were never investigated

Edited by LolaB0860, 25 April 2023 - 21:50.

[ensign14]

We know how good the FIA investigations are after the one in Abu Dhabi which told the world the FIA did everything right and the entire world is moronic for questioning the FIA. 

[Cliff]

Controversy surrounds both of them. Wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a Mercedes power play considering her history. Also wouldn’t be surprised if MBS is like this.

[Zmeej]

Gee, it’s curious how having ordered the murder and dismemberment of a journalist does not preclude one from becoming FIA president, but this is a scandal. Not that it shouldn’t be, it’s just curious.

[bibliophagos]

Gee, it’s curious how having ordered the murder and dismemberment of a journalist does not preclude one from becoming FIA president, but this is a scandal. Not that it shouldn’t be, it’s just curious.

Not the same guy....

[JimmyClark]

Controversy surrounds both of them. Wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a Mercedes power play considering her history. Also wouldn’t be surprised if MBS is like this.

These are my thoughts too. First reason is that given some of his past utterances it isn't overly surprising, however the Mercedes link and the fact that Mercedes have a lot of apparent beef with him does make me wonder if perhaps there is a hidden agenda too. I'm not saying the allegations are untrue, but until anything is proven and/or we have more information beyond some headlines we should all keep open minds.

But I am getting historical vibes of certain teams vs Moseley here in the age old F1 power struggles.

[Beri]

Why do I always get a cringing feeling when I hear the name Rao? I fail to take any of her comments seriously.

[Pingu Pi]

These are my thoughts too. First reason is that given some of his past utterances it isn't overly surprising, however the Mercedes link and the fact that Mercedes have a lot of apparent beef with him does make me wonder if perhaps there is a hidden agenda too. I'm not saying the allegations are untrue, but until anything is proven and/or we have more information beyond some headlines we should all keep open minds.

But I am getting historical vibes of certain teams vs Moseley here in the age old F1 power struggles.

Didn't realise Mercedes had a beef with him?

[taran]

Given that none of us have been party to any of the events I tread carefully, but a woman making these sort of allegations must be believed.

 

Therefore it is incumbent on him to step down while an investigation is carried out.

I think this nonsense has been finally debunked after the Amber Heard trial.

[pRy]

I’ll wait for more evidence before I can say whether or not he did what he is being accused of doing. Nowadays almost anything can be classed as bullying and sexism can also be claimed for some innocuous things.

 
All that's happening is more and more Women are finding the courage and strength to start speaking out about what is common behaviour in many organisations that feature Men in positions of power.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Given that none of us have been party to any of the events I tread carefully, but a woman making these sort of allegations must be believed.

 

Therefore it is incumbent on him to step down while an investigation is carried out.

Heard, not by default believed. Thats a very slippery slope.

[southernstars]

Oh goody, now we're at the "a woman with any kind of education or ambition must be a lying evil wench who is just trying to besmirch an innocent man!" part. Really love this part. But no, no, motorsport doesn't have a sexism problem, at all!

 

Please, this is a tale as old as time. A rich, powerful man? That's a bad enough recipe. But mix in a man raised in a country where women are little more than breeding cattle and barely considered human? Yeah, gee, I wonder...?

[MikeTekRacing]

All that's happening is more and more Women are finding the courage and strength to start speaking out about what is common behaviour in many organisations that feature Men in positions of power.

That’s very true
We need to know details to make a judgement. They all signed NDAs. So nothing happened

[Risil]

As citizens (bystanders!) who aren't being asked to render any judgements I think we ought to keep an open mind and consider the evidence carefully.

 

However what seems undeniable is that the F1 paddock's relationship with the FIA president is somewhere close to open hostility. The FIA is much too involved with the day-to-day running of F1 for this to be healthy or sustainable.

[JimmyClark]

Oh goody, now we're at the "a woman with any kind of education or ambition must be a lying evil wench who is just trying to besmirch an innocent man!" part. Really love this part. But no, no, motorsport doesn't have a sexism problem, at all!

 

Please, this is a tale as old as time. A rich, powerful man? That's a bad enough recipe. But mix in a man raised in a country where women are little more than breeding cattle and barely considered human? Yeah, gee, I wonder...

 

I don't really know where to start with this one... the assumptions and stereotypes are quite astonishing. I take it you haven't been to the UAE lately? It's not my personal cup of tea, but having been to pretty much every country in the Middle East it by far one of the most advanced in terms of women's rights. 

 

Yes, motorsport is male dominated and this needs to change. 

 

But just because it is a 'rich, powerful, Emirati man' involved, to paraphrase your post, doesn't mean that he's guilty until proven innocent. We don't even know what the accusations are yet - so right now it could be anything between a full blown misogynistic incident worthy of a firing, down to a workplace accidental "microagression" (to use the de rigeur term), which would be fairly inconsequential.  Given someone has recently dug up his 20yr old blog post, there are definitely people out there digging the dirt on him. But obviously there is no smoke without fire. 

 

So we should remain neutral until there are more facts. 

[Diablobb81]

Someone wants a new FIA president?

[jonpollak]

I know, just reintroduce grooved tyres again… That’ll solve everything.

Jp

[P123]

These are my thoughts too. First reason is that given some of his past utterances it isn't overly surprising, however the Mercedes link and the fact that Mercedes have a lot of apparent beef with him does make me wonder if perhaps there is a hidden agenda too. I'm not saying the allegations are untrue, but until anything is proven and/or we have more information beyond some headlines we should all keep open minds.

But I am getting historical vibes of certain teams vs Moseley here in the age old F1 power struggles.

 

Oh, because she previously worked with Mercedes the complainant is automatically damned by association (we already had this forum paranoia)?  And you just run with another tinfoil theory? Charming stuff.

[flyboym3]

Mohammed has 2 problems.

 

1. His old blog with his sexist remarks.

2. The full Telegraph article is quoting multiple witnesses that support these claims.

 

There is a 3rd to do with his culture but it's probably best not to mention those tendancies/viewpoints on women.

 

This guy won't last long IMO - there is a push to get him out because of his actions, and rightly so.

Edited by flyboym3, 26 April 2023 - 10:04.

[JimmyClark]

Oh, because she previously worked with Mercedes the complainant is automatically damned by association (we already had this forum paranoia)? And you just run with another tinfoil theory? Charming stuff.

No, I'm just saying you need to keep an open mind. When politics are involved, you have to.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

[flyboym3]

No, I'm just saying you need to keep an open mind. When politics are involved, you have to.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

What open mind is there to keep with his sexist blog posts

[New Britain]

Not the same guy....

Not even the same nationality!

[JimmyClark]

What open mind is there to keep with his sexist blog posts

 

Which I mentioned in that post... 

 

All we can do is deal with the facts, and try to contextualise them with rumours. 

 

Fact: Rao has left the FIA.

 

Fact: Neither Rao nor MBS have mentioned in public anything about the allegations, be it the accusation or and apology.

 

Fact: The FIA said "As previously stated, both parties agreed she would leave her position in November 2022 and mutual privacy terms were agreed, as is common business practice. There have been no complaints received against the president." 

 

Fact: MBS wrote 20 years ago he does "not like women who think they are smarter than men … for they are not, in truth”, from a very old blog post that must have been actively searched for by someone. 

 

Fact: MBS has stood back from direct involvement with F1 earlier this year. 

 

Fact: MBS has made controversial directives on political statements and jewellery in the past year, as well as his personal comments on the valuation of the sport. And probably other things I have forgotten about. 

 

Rumour: These have rubbed powerful teams up the wrong way, "There were even rumours that sport’s commercial arm was seeking to have the 61-year-old replaced despite only being a little over a year into his four-year term as president. Sky Sports are reporting that the strained relationship has been patched up and said that “positive conversations” had taken place between the two parties but that a significant number of “high ranking individuals” at the teams still had issues with the president." Also rumours suggesting Mercedes in particular are unhappy.

 

Rumour: Despite apparently severing all ties with Mercedes when Rao went for the FIA role, a link could have remained. 

 

 

So from putting these together you can either infer, at the extremes, that he is a rampant, unpleasant sexist and should be removed, or that the teams/F1/Mercedes have it in for him and are making overt political manoevures. I do think it is very much somewhere in between, with many teams unhappy with him and the sexism angle seems a good route to go down given he's clearly made unacceptable comments in the past in black and white. You could say it might be a less dramatic version of Moseley's downfall, which I'm sure had some F1 team involvement too. 

 

However we need more concrete facts before we can blatently join all the dots together and say he needs to be fired for sexism. You see so many instances these days of accusations with no basic ending up ruining someone's career, and I just like to remind people that this is not a healthy way to run society. 

 

Who knows, it all may come out later today or this week? 

[JHSingo]

Given that none of us have been party to any of the events I tread carefully, but a woman making these sort of allegations must be believed.

 

Therefore it is incumbent on him to step down while an investigation is carried out.

 

Not sure I entirely agree with this. That's a very dangerous position to take. There are a lot of bad men in positions of power, sure, but equally there are enough cases of women who make false allegations which wreck careers to not believe this is a cut and dry thing. It's worth investigating and nothing more at this stage.

 

Innocent till proven, guilty, I say - at least until there's enough evidence to suggest otherwise. There was that thing he wrote on his website dating back over 20 years ago, or whatever it was, but I hardly think that is a resignation level offence. 

Edited by JHSingo, 26 April 2023 - 10:49.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

My whole issue with automatically deeming MBS guilty because of blog posts 20 years ago is that it is not dealing with the current case/accusation or the man that he is today. Too often nowadays an allegation is made against a man(let’s face it, it’s mainly against men) and automatically we are supposed to believe the complainant without looking into the facts as a whole. 

Now, on the flip-side if Rao’s allegations are true and substantiated by evidence then MBS deserves to lose his post and the FIA need to do some serious work in improving their standards of work and employees. No one is disputing that because I’m sure we can all agree that’s unacceptable in 2023.

[jonpollak]

I thought these were tater tots?

What is a tater tot in the modern "woke" vernacular then?

 

I could actually learn something here ya know...

 

Jp

[ConsiderAndGo]

I thought these were tater tots?

What is a tater tot in the modern "woke" vernacular then?

 

I could actually learn something here ya know...

 

Jp

Just ask ChatGPT 

[P123]

No, I'm just saying you need to keep an open mind. When politics are involved, you have to.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

You've mentioned some apparent Mercedes link as being the motivation behind any complaint.  Not sure that could be referred to as keeping an open mind.  Rather, it seems to be invention to add weight to the previous paranoia that Rao was some Mercedes plant..... creating a narrative to feed a previous narrative.

 

If the teams/ FOM have it in for MBS, it's because he started touting for new entrants to F1.  We know they were unhappy at this because FOM rebuked him in the media.  That is an entirely different issue to his own personal conduct though.

[Marklar]

Not sure I entirely agree with this. That's a very dangerous position to take. There are a lot of bad men in positions of power, sure, but equally there are enough cases of women who make false allegations which wreck careers to not believe this is a cut and dry thing. It's worth investigating and nothing more at this stage.

 

Innocent till proven, guilty, I say - at least until there's enough evidence to suggest otherwise. There was that thing he wrote on his website dating back over 20 years ago, or whatever it was, but I hardly think that is a resignation level offence. 

I am not saying that he should be deemed guilty or whatever, and I recognise the issue the minority of men have who are wrongly accused (Andrew Tate is not one of them btw LOL), but the issue with this position is that it is hard to be proven because most of the time you dont record the other person (and sometimes its not even legal) and if you are powerful enough it is very easy to intimidate witnesses. And much as I feel for the few men who get wrongly accused and ruined by the court of public opinion it is a matter of fact that a lot more woman end up being ruined even more because they had the guts to speak up against a man and they get discarded over this.

Now I definitely dont share the opinion that all women must be believed that the OP suggested, this is just BS, and there are examples proving that this isnt a fact. But with these cases I always like to go by likehood. You have the blog entry from 20 years ago (okay), you have his position on mental health, countless other questionable remarks. He definitely is a very unpleasant guy to put it mildly, so the accusations have to be seen as serious. And the article seems to suggest that this woman isnt the only accuser (which is a dead giveaway normally, although in F1 you can never rule out that many parties would conspire against someone). Let's put it this way: if somebody was accusing Jean Todt I would be more sceptical, I know that many people appear nice in public and are assholes behind the scenes, but those who show on the outside sparks of the accused behavior cannot be treated with the same amount of benefit of the doubt IMO.

It also would explain why there was such an absurdly aggressive attempt to paint this woman as problematic just because she had a previous F1 team link (like everyone in the FIA), I know that this was partly down to Red Bull playing political games, but the coverage seemed very pointy outside of it: many women who try to go against somebody in higher power end up being chased away over a witch hunt and smear campaign, and this had the hailmarks of it.
 

I also dont think it looks good to aggresively pull the "innocent until proven guilty" card when the same people immediately accuse unrelated and unaccused parties of a conspiracy for no reason at all (I dont mean you btw). MBS seems very unpopular across the whole paddock, not only Mercedes, and if this wasnt F1 I would say that this is telling.

Edited by Marklar, 26 April 2023 - 13:42.

[Primo]

Guilty or not - I formed an opinion about him already after his first official statements and nothing he have done since has made me change my mind. He did not get that position because he was the best man for the job.

[ARTGP]

It’s amusing that some want to die on this hill that MBS of all people couldn’t possibly be guilty of anything at all here, when the shoe fits so so well, to what he’s being accused of for about 10 different reasons.

Jesus. Impressive. Baffling.

Edited by ARTGP, 26 April 2023 - 13:53.

[kumo7]

So now Formula one is as intelligent as Telegraph,...