1776 replies to this topic

[loki]

I think the approach is different now, in the sense that the Penske approach is one of resignation. I think the ownership has decided that further substantial investment will not return dramatic growth, so they have abandoned major investment in favour of slow growth at each event. Basically we have the classic clash between the Penske way and Andretti win it or bin it.

Miles response implies there are more voices than Andretti.  Looks like the ask for the teams to invest $20 mil for franchises was the catalyst for speaking out.  It’s a tone deaf ask.  Penske could find $20 mil in couch cushion change.

[PayasYouRace]

Well the link you posted isn't taking you to the article you are talking about, as Risil posted above it takes you to an article about the IndyNXT series.

EDIT: Link to actual article referenced by aportinga is here:

https://www.indystar...th/72900135007/

 

I'm definitely on the same page as Andretti that Indycar should adopt the IMSA powertrain rules with a new spec chassis to accommodate them.

[Risil]

It's risky to adopt somebody else's rules, IMO.

[Risil]

Reading Oreovicz's Indy Split I was struck that pretty much the only administration to create a successful set of technical rules between 1969 and the present was Randy Bernard's, with the ICONIC programme.

Everyone has talked about new cars for decades (and since the mid-2010s the talk has restarted) but making a proposal into reality has always been a formidable challenge. Failing to get new engine regs over the line was one of the main things that broke CART. Oreo doesn't make any explicit conclusions but I wonder what the structural reasons might be.

[red stick]

I'm definitely on the same page as Andretti that Indycar should adopt the IMSA powertrain rules with a new spec chassis to accommodate them.

This is the part that makes me wonder about Andretti, as only the Honda is suitable. All of the other engines are too large to really fit in what we think of as an IndyCar, as Pruett as told Mailbag correspondents now for nearly two years

[PayasYouRace]

This is the part that makes me wonder about Andretti, as only the Honda is suitable. All of the other engines are too large to really fit in what we think of as an IndyCar, as Pruett as told Mailbag correspondents now for nearly two years

 

Define too large. The DW12 isn't exactly a small machine.

 

For example, the Porsche 962 is 5.1 m long and 2 m wide. The DW12 is a very similar 5.123 m and 1.943 m. Whatever the drivetrain requirements are they're clearly fitting in a car of the same size. Take an LMDh, make it a single cockpit and cut back the bodywork to make it open wheel, and you're probably looking at something very similar to an aeroscreen equipped Indycar.

 

Pruett's pontifications on the mailbag have left me cold for years. Has he actually provided reasoned replies with data to back them up to those correspondents? He seems to prefer getting angry about being asked the same questions, and then ignoring the meat of them.

[red stick]

He's explained it at length on his podcast, because the question is a semi-perennial. It's a series of packaging and aero issues.

[PayasYouRace]

Packaging and aero "issues" can be solved.

[juicy sushi]

Switching to IMSA engine rules is also tricky because in 2027 they will switch to also have an equivalence for hydrogen, ahead of a phase out of gasoline in 2030. Although those dates are not firm.

I’ve said my piece before, so I’m not bothering here, but I think losing control of your rule book has risks. You need to make sure whatever your rules are that they are just right for 2027, but also for the years after that. And if you’re in a time of rapid and uncertain technical change, a wrong guess could be fatal.

[red stick]

As always, I'm glad we have experts on the thread . . .

[PayasYouRace]

Switching to IMSA engine rules is also tricky because in 2027 they will switch to also have an equivalence for hydrogen, ahead of a phase out of gasoline in 2030. Although those dates are not firm.

I’ve said my piece before, so I’m not bothering here, but I think losing control of your rule book has risks. You need to make sure whatever your rules are that they are just right for 2027, but also for the years after that. And if you’re in a time of rapid and uncertain technical change, a wrong guess could be fatal.

 

 

There are of course many examples of having multiple series using either the same or compatible rulesets, usually in the domain of production based racing, but LMH and LMDh are good examples in the prototype world. There are ways to make rules that are compatible with another series while not losing control of your own rulebook.

 

In this specific case, will every LMDh powertrain providers stick around during the transition to hydrogen? Perhaps it would be in Indycar's interests to provide a series for those that don't to continue racing? Or perhaps it would be in Indycar's interests to remain in parallel development and be at the front of racing innovation, which is hasn't been for decades?

 

As always, I'm glad we have experts on the thread . . .

 

Glad to help.

[red stick]

I don't know what metrics Andretti thinks $100 million would necessarily improve. It's easy to think money is the solution when it's other people's. Andretti's recent experience of spending other people's money to achieve tangible ends isn't exactly impeccable, so Penske's reticence isn't unfounded.

[FLB]

White Paper 2.0? IndyCar team owner group unites, takes concerns to Penske Entertainment | RACER

 

 

 

A summation of the meeting was written and the owners decided how Penske, whose wrath is easily drawn, should be approached in a manner that would be non-confrontational. Despite Penske being unaware most of IndyCar’s team owners had banded together out of concern and care for a series where all have made heavy investments. it was hoped he would receive the owners’ outreach in a positive manner.

[loki]

I don't know what metrics Andretti thinks $100 million would necessarily improve. It's easy to think money is the solution when it's other people's. Andretti's recent experience of spending other people's money to achieve tangible ends isn't exactly impeccable, so Penske's reticence isn't unfounded.

But the “hey guys spend $20 mil of your dollars so the series I own can be marketed” isn’t a good ask from a billionaire.   

[FLB]

But the “hey guys spend $20 mil of your dollars so the series I own can be marketed” isn’t a good ask from a billionaire.   

I can imagine Honda's reaction considering how much money they've spent themselves promoting American open-wheel racing since 1994.

[juicy sushi]

The Racer article indicated discussions had been quite positive and built a lot of consensus on things, but Andretti firing from the hip might have wrecked all of the work done. Not sure Honda would have a problem with the charter price, if it’s part of a plan that respects their cost reduction concerns.

I think Andretti is perhaps speaking a little out of turn since he missed the meeting where that was probably specifically talked about.

[loki]

I see the piece as being a “Micheal STFU” from the other teams after the story last night.  Historically Roger Penske hasn’t dealt with public criticism well.  He’s old school top down management not allowing public disagreement in the ranks.  I find it odd and outdated those in the organization or close media refer to him as Mr. Penske.  Being old is OK.  Thinking in old ways and not being able or willing to adapt will scuttle an operation these days.  Particulalrly when there are competing interests.  Honda’s position to speak makes more sense to me now.  

[red stick]

But the “hey guys spend $20 mil of your dollars so the series I own can be marketed” isn’t a good ask from a billionaire.

No, but that seems to have been so comprehensively laughed out of the room that I assume they're all back at the drawing board.

[Jim Thurman]

Reading Oreovicz's Indy Split I was struck that pretty much the only administration to create a successful set of technical rules between 1969 and the present was Randy Bernard's, with the ICONIC programme.

Everyone has talked about new cars for decades (and since the mid-2010s the talk has restarted) but making a proposal into reality has always been a formidable challenge. Failing to get new engine regs over the line was one of the main things that broke CART. Oreo doesn't make any explicit conclusions but I wonder what the structural reasons might be.

Risil, what did Oreovicz write about the Gordon-Stewart conundrum? I'm curious, but because I doubt even he got that part right, I've been reluctant to purchase.

 

Feel free to pm me if too long or too off topic.

[red stick]

Risil, what did Oreovicz write about the Gordon-Stewart conundrum? I'm curious, but because I doubt even he got that part right, I've been reluctant to purchase.
 
Feel free to pm me if too long or too off topic.

Two words: Interlibrary loan.

[Jim Thurman]

Two words: Interlibrary loan.

Good idea  I will look into it, but I haven't frequented libraries since, you know, that pandemic thing. You may have heard of it 

 

Plus, my local libraries have what could be described as "interesting" interlibrary loan policies. At one time, I got microfilm from the state library in Sacramento sent here. The next time, they had no clue how to do any of it    The other incorporated city library here briefly had a tie-in with a neighboring county, which ended. That was it.

 

While one area County library has (had?) a surprising selection of vintage motorsport books (a history of the German Grand Prix, "Marathon In The Dust"  ), others are down to a book on Gordon and a book on Earnhardt constituting the "motorsports" selection   I don't think my nearest newish branch even has a single motorsports book 

Edited by Jim Thurman, 09 March 2024 - 20:11.

[FLB]

Newgarden! 

[red stick]

Good idea  I will look into it, but I haven't frequented libraries since, you know, that pandemic thing. You may have heard of it 
 
Plus, my local libraries have what could be described as "interesting" interlibrary loan policies. At one time, I got microfilm from the state library in Sacramento sent here. The next time, they had no clue how to do any of it    The other incorporated city library here briefly had a tie-in with a neighboring county, which ended. That was it.
 
While one area County library has (had?) a surprising selection of vintage motorsport books (a history of the German Grand Prix, "Marathon In The Dust"  ), others are down to a book on Gordon and a book on Earnhardt constituting the "motorsports" selection   I don't think my nearest newish branch even has a single motorsports book 

I used it last year for Pikes Peak Hillclimb books. Very handy, and if a book proved disappointing, no loss.

[aportinga]

The Racer article indicated discussions had been quite positive and built a lot of consensus on things, but Andretti firing from the hip might have wrecked all of the work done. Not sure Honda would have a problem with the charter price, if it’s part of a plan that respects their cost reduction concerns.

I think Andretti is perhaps speaking a little out of turn since he missed the meeting where that was probably specifically talked about.

 

I disagree. I think everyone is tired of Mark Miles rosey glasses BS. My take is Michael is just calling it like it is - and there is speculation that others agree with him.

 

Penske needs to fire anyone in the organization who have been there for years and bring in new people. Have they even filled in the Marketing position yet.

 

Furthermore Penske needs a Move forward plan to share with the teams and fans. If where we are is where we are because the series alone in not profitable - then fine. It's then a mostly regional series with limited budgets. So what? The racing has been good for the last 2 years that I have re-started watching. Leave it at that and end the non-sense that it has to always be Indycar vs F1 or NASCAR.

 

OOn a good note - we will have a real race tomorrow which is nice.

Edited by aportinga, 09 March 2024 - 20:31.

[aportinga]

Risil, what did Oreovicz write about the Gordon-Stewart conundrum? I'm curious, but because I doubt even he got that part right, I've been reluctant to purchase.

 

Feel free to pm me if too long or too off topic.

 

I nabbed that book a year ago and planned on reading it through while on the beach last January but soccer found a way to get in the way. I'll be on Longboat Key in 2 months and have it already set aside.

[Jim Thurman]

While one area County library has (had?) a surprising selection of vintage motorsport books (a history of the German Grand Prix, "Marathon In The Dust"  ), others are down to a book on Gordon and a book on Earnhardt constituting the "motorsports" selection   I don't think my nearest newish branch even has a single motorsports book 

In a thrilling update (that hopefully won't be deleted), I double checked the local branch county library. The motorsport selections are: "The Formula" by Joshua Robinson and Jonathan Clegg and a book on Kyle Petty.

 

And, no, I didn't ask about interlibrary loan. This time.

[PayasYouRace]

White Paper 2.0? IndyCar team owner group unites, takes concerns to Penske Entertainment | RACER

Something about dying a hero or living long enough to become the villain?