223 replies to this topic

[F1Frog]

What races can you think of that were won, entirely on merit, by a driver who was not in the best car on the day? And by 'on merit', I mean excluding races where the fastest car had a mechanical failure, or the driver crashed, or the winner got lucky with a safety car or anything like that. It has to have been entirely a straight fight in which the slower car won.

 

For example, the 1961 Monaco Grand Prix, where Stirling Moss defeated the much faster Ferraris just simply by being by far the best driver on the day. I think this is the most obvious example (and Buenos Aires 1958 and Nurburgring 1961 would be two more examples involving Moss), but would be interested to know what others people can come up with, and specifically what was the most recent example in an era where it is more difficult for driver skill to stand out. I can think of quite a few possibilities involving Lewis Hamliton (Bahrain 2021, Mexico 2019, Singapore 2018, Italy 2018) but none are clear cut.

 

 

 

 

[garoidb]

What races can you think of that were won, entirely on merit, by a driver who was not in the best car on the day? And by 'on merit', I mean excluding races where the fastest car had a mechanical failure, or the driver crashed, or the winner got lucky with a safety car or anything like that. It has to have been entirely a straight fight in which the slower car won.

 

For example, the 1961 Monaco Grand Prix, where Stirling Moss defeated the much faster Ferraris just simply by being by far the best driver on the day. I think this is the most obvious example (and Buenos Aires 1958 and Nurburgring 1961 would be two more examples involving Moss), but would be interested to know what others people can come up with, and specifically what was the most recent example in an era where it is more difficult for driver skill to stand out. I can think of quite a few possibilities involving Lewis Hamliton (Bahrain 2021, Mexico 2019, Singapore 2018, Italy 2018) but none are clear cut.

 

Jarama 1981? Or would you discount that because of Jones crashing from the lead early on. Villeneuve still had to beat several faster (over the lap) cars, though.

[wj_gibson]

Alonso at Valencia.

[AvranaKern]

1996 Spanish Grand Prix, Michael Schumacher.

[NickeyF1]

Maldonado Spain 2012? I mean..he got pole and won, but I still don't know how good that Williams was in 2012 and especially in Barcelona. 

[ARTGP]

Maldonado Spain 2012? I mean..he got pole and won, but I still don't know how good that Williams was in 2012 and especially in Barcelona.

He drove away from Alonso. It wasn’t the fastest car over the season, but on that day it may well have been.

[ARTGP]

Leclerc Monza 2019. The Mercs would have pulled away if they could get past.

[Collombin]

Beltoise at Monaco 1972? Not just that the BRM was not the fastest car, but you weren't supposed to be able to beat Ickx in the rain either.

[Alan Lewis]

Nuvolari 1935. ("obvs", as the kids say).

All of Alonso's wins in the 2012 Ferrari.

[Collombin]

Ronnie in the March at Monza 1976, although it's overshadowed by the guy that finished 4th.

[garoidb]

All of Alonso's wins in the 2012 Ferrari.

 

Grands Prix won without the fastest, second fastest or third fastest car. 

[PlatenGlass]

Leclerc Monza 2019. The Mercs would have pulled away if they could get past.

 

To take this to a more extreme level, Coulthard at Monaco in 2002.

[PlatenGlass]

Alonso at Valencia.

Mechanical failure for Vettel.

[Anderis]

Bottas, Sochi 2017.

[Henri Greuter]

Vettel 2008 with the Toro Rosso?

Weater was a factor, I admit.

[P123]

Probably quite a few Monaco examples.

[Ferrim]

Alonso at Valencia might be debatable, but Alonso at Malaysia can't possibly be.

[F1Frog]

Some interesting answers so far, thank you.

 

 

Jarama 1981? Or would you discount that because of Jones crashing from the lead early on. Villeneuve still had to beat several faster (over the lap) cars, though.

 

Jones did crash out of the lead but this is still a good example because the Ferrari was not faster than the Williams, Ligier or McLaren but he still beat those other drivers entirely on merit.

 

Alonso at Valencia.

 

Maybe, although he wouldn't have won without Vettel's alternator failure.

 

1996 Spanish Grand Prix, Michael Schumacher.

 

Over the season it was not the best car but on the day, in those conditions, it surely was. He couldn't have made the difference by four seconds per lap.

 

Maldonado Spain 2012? I mean..he got pole and won, but I still don't know how good that Williams was in 2012 and especially in Barcelona. 

 

I suspect that it was the best car on the day, but agree that it is very hard to tell.

 

Leclerc Monza 2019. The Mercs would have pulled away if they could get past.

 

I didn't think of this but it might very well be a contender for the most recent example, because I probably agree with you.

 

Beltoise at Monaco 1972? Not just that the BRM was not the fastest car, but you weren't supposed to be able to beat Ickx in the rain either.

 

The BRM might have been particularly good in wet conditions, like the ABT Cupra in Formula e this season, but somehow I doubt it and think it wasn't the best car on the day. It is very strange that one of the greatest drives in Grand Prix history was done by Jean-Pierre Beltoise.

[F1Frog]

Nuvolari 1935. ("obvs", as the kids say).

 

At the German Grand Prix, absolutely. I think this was the greatest drive in Grand Prix history, considering the superiority of the Mercedes and Auto Unions, and the quality of the drivers he was up against (Rosemeyer, Caracciola, Varzi, Stuck, Lang, Fagioli, von Brauchistch). Although von Brauchistch did blow a tyre on the final lap allowing Nuvolari to win, that was because the pressure from the Alfa Romeo forced him to push too hard, and also Nuvolari had had that two minute pitstop earlier in the race.

 

Ronnie in the March at Monza 1976, although it's overshadowed by the guy that finished 4th.

 

Good answer, I agree.

 

To take this to a more extreme level, Coulthard at Monaco in 2002.

 

Agree again.

 

Bottas, Sochi 2017.

 

I also hadn't thought of this one but the Ferrari did generally look faster, and he was well ahead of Hamilton, so this might be correct as well.

 

Vettel 2008 with the Toro Rosso?

Weater was a factor, I admit.

 

He was helped by Hamilton, Massa, Raikkonen and Kubica being out of position, although he did beat Kovalainen's faster McLaren entirely on merit.

 

Alonso at Valencia might be debatable, but Alonso at Malaysia can't possibly be.

 

Yes, I would definitely say Malaysia 2012 was won without the best car, and Alonso would have held Perez off even without the late mistake.

[Counterbalance]

Maldonado Spain 2012? I mean..he got pole and won, but I still don't know how good that Williams was in 2012 and especially in Barcelona.

Nobody had a handle on the new Pirelli tyres back then. There were seven winners from seven different teams at the start of the season if I recall correctly.

Maldonado won on Sir Franks 70th birthday, which was celebrated with their garage almost burning down post race!

[AlcidioG]

Max Barcelona 2016

[TheMidnight]

Max Barcelona 2016

Great win, but his competition took themselves out on the first lap.

[eibyyz]

Patrese, Monaco 1982.

 

Reutemann, Brands 1978.

[AlcidioG]

Great win, but his competition took themselves out on the first lap.

 

The Ferrari was also faster not only the Mercedes

[Leibowitz]

Button in Japan 2011, Alonso in Germany and Malaysia 2012, Ricciardo at Belgium 2014, Vettel at Hungary 2015, Vettel in Bahrain 2017, Vettel in Brazil 2017, Leclerc in 2019 Italy, Hamilton in 2019 Mexico, Hamilton in Bahrain 2021

Edited by Leibowitz, 14 May 2023 - 18:17.

[Leibowitz]

All of Ricciardos F1 wins were won in the slower car, but of course quite a lot of them were influenced by safety cars and other circumstances.

Edited by Leibowitz, 14 May 2023 - 17:49.

[PlatenGlass]

There will be loads. Schumacher versus Newey will be a very fruitful place to look.

[Leibowitz]

There will be loads. Schumacher versus Newey will be a very fruitful place to look.

Yes. Huge number of wins from 96-00 that Michael should not have won.

[H0R]

Monaco 1966 (Stewart, BRM), Kylami 197 (Rodrguez, Cooper), Monza 1967 (Surtees, Honda) and of course the mother of all wins against all odds: Austria 1975 (Brambilla, March)

[pacificquay]

There will be loads. Schumacher versus Newey will be a very fruitful place to look.

With the caveat that the cars he drove are always underestimated and his (undoubtedly brilliant) ability overplayed.

[Roadhouse]

Leclerc 2019 was heavily influenced by stewards turning a blind eye.

[Astandahl]

Leclerc 2019 was heavily influenced by stewards turning a blind eye.

Just like in Austria but no one talks about it.

[MikeTekRacing]

Abu Dhabi 2021 )

[Henri Greuter]

Patrese, Monaco 1982.

 

Reutemann, Brands 1978.

 

Reutemann was a matter of both Lotus 79's retiring

[Roadhouse]

Just like in Austria but no one talks about it.

Because it's irrelevant for this topic.

[Leibowitz]

I can think of quite a few possibilities involving Lewis Hamliton (Bahrain 2021, Mexico 2019, Singapore 2018, Italy 2018) but none are clear cut.

Mercedes was the fastest car in Singapore 2018 and results in Italy were heavily influenced by Vettel spinning in the first lap.

Edited by Leibowitz, 14 May 2023 - 18:01.

[JeePee]

Verstappen, Zandvoort 2021

[lewislorenzo]

Verstappen, Zandvoort 2021

Right…

[Leibowitz]

Does Imola in 05 and 06 count?

Edited by Leibowitz, 14 May 2023 - 18:19.

[lewislorenzo]

Are we defining the fastest car as the one who takes pole or the fastest in race trim?

Edited by lewislorenzo, 14 May 2023 - 22:35.

[Beri]

Herbert Nürburgring 1999. Despite what the criteria of the OP are, this was still a massive result that was reached by simply being the fastest driver on track who didn't make an error.

[PlatenGlass]

Are defining the fastest car as the one who takes pole or the fastest in race trim?

This was my point in bringing up Monaco 2002 which was the most extreme example I could think of. Schumacher's Ferrari was much faster on race day but Michelin brought tyres that could qualify so Coulthard just had to stay ahead. So I'm not sure if it's in the spirit of the OP or not.

[ensign14]

Beltoise at Monaco 1972? Not just that the BRM was not the fastest car, but you weren't supposed to be able to beat Ickx in the rain either.

With one arm.

 

There are going to be loads.  Hunt, Netherlands 1975.  Mansell, Hungary 1989.  Boutsen, Hungary 1990.  Hamilton, most of his 2008 wins.  Fangio, Italy 1953 and most of 1957.  Senna, Donington 1993.  Clark, USA 1966 and maybe most of his wins given he may have been the magic ingredient to make the 25 work. 

[SilverArrow31]

Maldonado Spain 2012? I mean..he got pole and won, but I still don't know how good that Williams was in 2012 and especially in Barcelona.

Yeah, the fastest car that weekend was Hamilton's Mclaren. He just started at the back on a difficult track to overtake.

Edited by SilverArrow31, 14 May 2023 - 20:13.

[Leibowitz]

Yeah, the fastest car that weekend was Hamilton's Mclaren. He just started at the back on a difficult track to overtake.

They underfueled him for qualifying IIRC. With Singapore and Abu Dhabi later in the season and countless pitstop mistakes through the season, it doesn’t suprise me he decided to jump the ship to Mercedes.

Edited by Leibowitz, 14 May 2023 - 20:18.

[Sterzo]

The BRM might have been particularly good in wet conditions, like the ABT Cupra in Formula e this season, but somehow I doubt it and think it wasn't the best car on the day. It is very strange that one of the greatest drives in Grand Prix history was done by Jean-Pierre Beltoise.

Certainly a good example, and I've always thought that day we saw what Beltoise could do when he wasn't hampered by his permanently-injured arm. Extreme rain meant the steering would have been incredibly light that day. Similarly, Rudolf Carracciola  was famed for his wet weather driving, maybe because he didn't have to stamp on the brake with his smashed leg.

[EightGear]

Verstappen, France 2021. Austin the same year probably as well.

Also Hamilton in Bahrein 2021.

[eab]

Beltoise at Monaco 1972? Not just that the BRM was not the fastest car, but you weren't supposed to be able to beat Ickx in the rain either.

Remarkable choice. It's been exactly 51 years on this day, and on top of that, Ickx spent this weekend at another big name in motorsports, Le Mans, attending the 1000th Grand Prix for the two-wheelers, and handing out trophies on the podium. Apparently he has some kind of connection with the circuit, hence the invite for the special occasion.

[George Costanza]

Michael Schumacher in 1995-2000.

The whole 1995 season too... I mean, ridiculous in that Benetton B195.

Williams were the better team and certainly car in 1995. The drivers simply weren't capable of showing just how quick the 1995 Williams was. The 1996 Williams was an evolution of the 1995 car and Damon Hill did a very good job in 1996. He wasn't very good in 1995. Then again... Michael wasn't at Benetton in 1996, which was significantly better and quicker than the 1996 Ferrari. 1996 Benetton would have won the championship in Michael Schumacher's ability.

There is no way that Benetton had a better car than Williams from 1990-1998 seasons...

The difference was indeed Michael.

Edited by George Costanza, 15 May 2023 - 00:58.

[George Costanza]

There will be loads. Schumacher versus Newey will be a very fruitful place to look.

Absolutely.

Edited by George Costanza, 15 May 2023 - 00:48.