223 replies to this topic

[F1Frog]

It wasn't for the win, but today George Russell beat Sergio Perez to the podium entirely on merit, having started behind him, despite having a less competitive car. This was the kind of thing I was thinking of, as it didn't require any kind of luck at all.

[PlatenGlass]

It wasn't for the win, but today George Russell beat Sergio Perez to the podium entirely on merit, having started behind him, despite having a less competitive car. This was the kind of thing I was thinking of, as it didn't require any kind of luck at all.

It must happen all the time for positions other than first. Work your way down the field and you'll probably find several each race.

Plus Russell made up the places at the start, which might be merit-based but isn't that interesting either. And cutting that chicane didn't exactly hinder him...

[Zmeej]

Probably quite a few Monaco examples.

 

Definitely.

 

My absolute fave is Senna there in 1992.

 

After that: Olivier Panis in 1996.

 

IMHO, Ayrton was robbed in 1984. 

 

 

Not at Monaco, a sentimental one:

 

Damon Hill at Spa in 1998 - Jordan's first win, Graham's son's last.

Edited by Zmeej, 05 June 2023 - 03:29.

[Zmeej]

Like the first two choices on this list:

https://www.grandpri...ainst-all-odds/

 

1/ Giancarlo Baghetti – 1961 French Grand Prix, for a team known as Scuderia Centro Sud.

Admit my comprehensive ignorance about this driver, occurrence, and car, without embarrassment. 

 

2/ Another Monaco win, by Jochen Rindt in 1970, driving a Lotus.

Edited by Zmeej, 06 June 2023 - 01:51.

[Dan333SP]

Like the first two choices on this list:
https://www.grandpri...ainst-all-odds/

1/ Giancarlo Baghetti – 1961 French Grand Prix, for a team known as Scuderia Centro Sud.
Admit my comprehensive ignorance about this driver, occurrence, and car, without embarrassment.

2/ Another Monaco win, by Jochen Rindt in 1970, driving a Lotus.

The Baghetti win doesn’t really fit the criteria here I’d think, he was driving the same Ferrari 156 that Hill won the title with, this was a time when privateers could purchase current generation GP cars from Ferrari and the like. He also took advantage of just about everyone ahead of him running into mechanical trouble.

[Zmeej]

Ah. Thanks for the correction.

[George Costanza]

Definitely.

My absolute fave is Senna there in 1992.

After that: Olivier Panis in 1996.

IMHO, Ayrton was robbed in 1984.


Not at Monaco, a sentimental one:

Damon Hill at Spa in 1998 - Jordan's first win, Graham's son's last.

Ayrton's best Monaco win is 1989. But that's doesn't fit this thread. However 1987 certainly would fit this thread example.

Edited by George Costanza, 06 June 2023 - 03:59.

[thefinalapex]

Definitely.

My absolute fave is Senna there in 1992.

After that: Olivier Panis in 1996.

IMHO, Ayrton was robbed in 1984.


Not at Monaco, a sentimental one:

Damon Hill at Spa in 1998 - Jordan's first win, Graham's son's last.

Senna robbed in 84? Only man that was robbed that day was stefan bellof. Sennas suspension wouldn’t have lasted much longer if i am correct.

[Glengavel]

Like the first two choices on this list:

https://www.grandpri...ainst-all-odds/

 

1/ Giancarlo Baghetti – 1961 French Grand Prix, for a team known as Scuderia Centro Sud.

Admit my comprehensive ignorance about this driver, occurrence, and car, without embarrassment. 

 

2/ Another Monaco win, by Jochen Rindt in 1970, driving a Lotus.

 

Baghetti had also won the previous two non-championship races at Syracuse (his first ever F1 race) and Naples, although Naples was held on the same weekend as Monaco so all the big names were absent on that occasion.

[LegendInTheMaking]

A couple of candidates from seasons in the past:

 

Ronnie Peterson won the 1976 Italian GP from 8th place in a March, while 5 of the 7 drivers ahead of him, from 4 different teams, finished as well. March finished 7th in the WCC that season.

 

Jacques Lafitte won the 1977 Swedish GP also from 8th place in a Ligier, also having 5 of the 7 drivers who started ahead of him, in this case even from 5 different teams, finishing as well. It has to be said though, that while Andretti still finished 6th, he did suffer from fuel metering problems causing him to pit from the lead with only 2 laps to go. Ligier finished 8th in the WCC that season. 

 

In a similar way as Lafitte, Alan Jones won the 1977 Austrian GP, starting from 14th with drivers from 9 (!) different teams ahead of him. In changing weather conditions, he fought up to second, before taking advantage of Hunt's engine failure 11 laps before the end of the race. Jones' Shadow team finished 7th in the WCC that season.

 

In 1982 Keke Rosberg took the WDC in arguably one of the least dominant cars ever (4th in WCC). His only win at the Swiss GP was from 8th place, with 4 of those starting ahead finishing as well, from 3 different teams. It has to be said that the construction champions Ferrari didn't race as they only entered one car following Pironi's accident in Hockenheim and Tambay was having an injury as well. 

 

In 1985 Brabham had slipped from fast-but-unreliable to just unreliable. By the time of the French GP, the 7th round of the season, Piquet had only gained a single point. Piquet qualified 5th, well behind the lead drivers of the 4 leading teams of the season. In the race however, Piquet took the lead early on and while some retired behind him, he definitely won on merit. 

 

At the 1997 Italian GP, Coulthard qualified 6th. Even though it was close, as the first nine starters only had 0.634 between them, he had 3 different teams ahead of him. All those who started in front of him finished as well and if it wasn't for a late puncture of Mika Hakkinen, the entire top-6 would have finished in the same sequence apart from Coulthard passing them all. The latter wording is technically not correct though, as he only passed the other cars at the start or during the pitstops and none of them on track. 

Edited by LegendInTheMaking, 06 June 2023 - 10:09.

[Sterzo]

The Baghetti win doesn’t really fit the criteria here I’d think, he was driving the same Ferrari 156 that Hill won the title with, this was a time when privateers could purchase current generation GP cars from Ferrari and the like. He also took advantage of just about everyone ahead of him running into mechanical trouble.

 

To reinforce your point, it was a works car and if the entry list showed Centro Sud, that was a bit of a myth.
 

[Anderis]

In 1982 Keke Rosberg took the WDC in arguably one of the least dominant cars ever (4th in WCC).

Forgive me for the nitpicking but the vast majority of the cars in F1 history were equally non-dominant, as each car that is not dominant has the dominance value of 0.

 

But that makes you right, Keke Rosberg's car was one of the least dominant cars ever because it was equally non-dominant as any other car that was not dominating, there haven't been any less dominant cars than that.
 

[PayasYouRace]

Senna robbed in 84? Only man that was robbed that day was stefan bellof. Sennas suspension wouldn’t have lasted much longer if i am correct.

But Bellof’s car was illegally ballasted, so if Senna had broken down and Bellof later disqualified, who would have won?

[Collombin]

But Bellof’s car was illegally ballasted

It hadn't made its pitstop yet, and annoyingly the weighbridge at Monaco was broken. Still would have ultimately been excluded of course, for the 25 good reasons they didn't want Tyrrell around.

[Rediscoveryx]

But Bellof’s car was illegally ballasted, so if Senna had broken down and Bellof later disqualified, who would have won?

 

Prost.

[PlatenGlass]

Ayrton's best Monaco win is 1989. But that's doesn't fit this thread. However 1987 certainly would fit this thread example.

It required Mansell's car to break down.

[PlatenGlass]

At the 1997 Italian GP, Coulthard qualified 6th. Even though it was close, as the first nine starters only had 0.634 between them, he had 3 different teams ahead of him. All those who started in front of him finished as well and if it wasn't for a late puncture of Mika Hakkinen, the entire top-6 would have finished in the same sequence apart from Coulthard passing them all. The latter wording is technically not correct though, as he only passed the other cars at the start or during the pitstops and none of them on track.

Hakkinen also got badly delayed on his in lap. McLaren were on for a 1-2, possibly with Hakkinen ahead. Likely the best race car, certainly up there.

[Glengavel]

To reinforce your point, it was a works car and if the entry list showed Centro Sud, that was a bit of a myth.
 

 

Entered under the FISA banner:

 

https://racing-retro...ollections/fisa

 

Baghetti did race for Centro Sud in later years.

[CSF]

It required Mansell's car to break down.

 

Half of Senna's Monaco wins required someone else to hit trouble didn't they...

 

87 - Mansell

92 - Mansell

93 - Schumacher

 

Of course he threw 88 away himelf, but that was himself and not mechanical issues... 

[Rediscoveryx]

Half of Senna's Monaco wins required someone else to hit trouble didn't they...

87 - Mansell
92 - Mansell
93 - Schumacher

Of course he threw 88 away himelf, but that was himself and not mechanical issues...

…and even if he’d won in 1984, it would have been a function of Mansell throwing it into the guardrails.

[F1Frog]

Alan Jones beating the Ligiers at Paul Ricard in 1980, perhaps.

[PayasYouRace]

It required Mansell's car to break down.

Yeah, but the thread is referencing the fastest car. Any GP won where a faster car broke down is a valid answer.

[Rediscoveryx]

Yeah, but the thread is referencing the fastest car. Any GP won where a faster car broke down is a valid answer.

Not according to the OP:

What races can you think of that were won, entirely on merit, by a driver who was not in the best car on the day? And by 'on merit', I mean excluding races where the fastest car had a mechanical failure, or the driver crashed, or the winner got lucky with a safety car or anything like that. It has to have been entirely a straight fight in which the slower car won.

[PayasYouRace]

Yeah fair enough.