Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Concerns with weaving at Indianapolis


  • Please log in to reply
166 replies to this topic

#1 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 2,363 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 28 May 2023 - 22:01

This is a live shot of the last lap of the Indy 500. That is Joseph Newgarden at race speed, trying to break a tow with Markus Ericson behind him.  Weaving always existed in Indycar. But it just seems far more extreme than it used to be. The problem is, even if you made below the pit wall line out of bounds , then drivers would be weaving to the line and it might make it worse, when something goes wrong.

 

Edit: My pic didnt post. Here it is on video at .48- .49 seconds 

 

https://youtu.be/5MR8GT3gEZo

 

 

4w6QiNIo_o.jpg


Edited by YamahaV10, 28 May 2023 - 22:07.


Advertisement

#2 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 2,363 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 28 May 2023 - 22:04

Can someone post this picture ? I cant seem to

 

https://images2.imgb.../4w6QiNIo_o.jpg

 

indy112.jpg

 

This is the previous lap, Ericson taking the green. He is not going into the pits 

 

https://images2.imgb.../LNXbc5As_o.jpg


Edited by YamahaV10, 28 May 2023 - 22:45.


#3 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 29,187 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 28 May 2023 - 22:17

Can someone post this picture ? I cant seem to

 

https://images2.imgb.../4w6QiNIo_o.jpg

 

indy112.jpg

 

the picture is showing up fine for me. 


Edited by ARTGP, 28 May 2023 - 22:17.


#4 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 61,701 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 28 May 2023 - 22:22

It's not weaving, it's tow-breaking.  Or trying to.  Weaving would mean Ericsson had a run, rather than stopping Ericsson having a run.

 

The problem is the formula.  The cars need to be less grippy.  Or more powerful.  Make them BRAKE at Indianapolis again.



#5 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 6,302 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 28 May 2023 - 22:27

It's not weaving, it's tow-breaking. Or trying to. Weaving would mean Ericsson had a run, rather than stopping Ericsson having a run.

The problem is the formula. The cars need to be less grippy. Or more powerful. Make them BRAKE at Indianapolis again.

Less grip? Maybe, but this is on late-race restarts and no one is at full power, which is also its own risk. I think making the acceleration point much earlier so that the lead driver can break away more easily might help, but really, black-flagging the top 10 on the restart is probably the only real option to get the message across.

#6 Rediscoveryx

Rediscoveryx
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 28 May 2023 - 22:29

Yes, something needs to be done about this before we have an absolute nightmare of a crash.



#7 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 2,363 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 28 May 2023 - 22:32

It's not weaving, it's tow-breaking.  Or trying to.  Weaving would mean Ericsson had a run, rather than stopping Ericsson having a run.

 

The problem is the formula.  The cars need to be less grippy.  Or more powerful.  Make them BRAKE at Indianapolis again.

 

That's exactly what I thought too. The more powerful cars from the 90's didnt weave/tow break like this. The restriction of the power and speed is part of the cause. But the racing is closer because its spec. So that is part of it also.


Edited by YamahaV10, 28 May 2023 - 22:33.


#8 Bliman

Bliman
  • Member

  • 9,956 posts
  • Joined: April 16

Posted 28 May 2023 - 22:32

Wow I don't follow the sport but that looks like an accident waiting to happen. :eek:



#9 paulb

paulb
  • Member

  • 11,158 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 28 May 2023 - 22:36

Yea, we can’t have these shenanigans. Lets slow them down too while we’re at it.  :rolleyes:



#10 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 2,363 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 28 May 2023 - 22:39

Yes, something needs to be done about this before we have an absolute nightmare of a crash.

 

Yeah. But I don't think making the white line the bounds mark would necessarily make it safer. Then Newgarden would have weaved to the white line. And Ericson would have followed. And then they are still pointing an inch away from the pit divider. 

 

What if they moved the white line a car width outward? I dont see a problem with moving it a car width or 2 outward. That would just be the new reality.



#11 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 15,853 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 28 May 2023 - 22:40

Can someone post this picture ? I cant seem to

 

https://images2.imgb.../4w6QiNIo_o.jpg

 

indy112.jpg

 

https://forums.autos...visible-photos/



#12 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 29,055 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 28 May 2023 - 23:57

https://forums.autos...visible-photos/

It looks a lot faster once you hit the end of the pit lane at 220 mph.

#13 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 13,996 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 28 May 2023 - 23:58

It's Josef.
At Penske, details matter.

#14 rghojai

rghojai
  • Member

  • 2,009 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 29 May 2023 - 00:03

They don't matter when it comes to leaving huge latitude in the rules. Meanwhile, the PenskeCar series salutes Penske's driver for winning the Penske 500.

#15 Primo

Primo
  • Member

  • 2,459 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 29 May 2023 - 00:06

Can someone post this picture ? I cant seem to

 

https://images2.imgb.../4w6QiNIo_o.jpg

 

indy112.jpg

 

This is the previous lap, Ericson taking the green. He is not going into the pits 

 

https://images2.imgb.../LNXbc5As_o.jpg

I cannot see the pic either and had the same problem as you before, picture I posted did not show up. It get the style width & height 0. Maybe OS related? I run Ubuntu and Chrome (tested also with Firefox).

In the editor here, I can see you picture in the quote, will be interesting to see if it is still visible after I click "Add Reply"


Edit: Found the problem, posted fix in Website Feedback


Edited by Primo, 29 May 2023 - 00:25.


#16 red stick

red stick
  • Member

  • 13,996 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 29 May 2023 - 00:07

Yeah. The domination there since he bought the series has been a sight to behold. :rolleyes:

#17 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 29,055 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 29 May 2023 - 00:09

Unless I'm mistaken, Alexander Rossi was quite controversial a few years ago (2017 maybe?) when he started weaving aggressively to defend his position on the back stretch? Maybe Rossi wasn't the only one who did it, I don't know. Indycar probably should have clamped down on the weaving back then, but they didn't, and every year it gets worse.



#18 juicy sushi

juicy sushi
  • Member

  • 6,302 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 29 May 2023 - 00:33

They don't matter when it comes to leaving huge latitude in the rules. Meanwhile, the PenskeCar series salutes Penske's driver for winning the Penske 500.

So, was it rigged for Ganassi last year when Ericsson was even worse? Or when he did it this year as well?

This was not a new thing only done by a Penske driver to win the race.

Edited by juicy sushi, 29 May 2023 - 00:34.


#19 BoDarvelle

BoDarvelle
  • Member

  • 1,332 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 29 May 2023 - 00:34

Indy isn't F1.



Advertisement

#20 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 2,363 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 29 May 2023 - 01:14

Indy isn't F1.


Take the time to click on the picture links above

#21 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 29,187 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 29 May 2023 - 02:26

I think ducking down under the pitlane line in race conditions with no intent to pit is reckless. That pitlane divider could split a car in two if a couple of drivers playing silly buggers misjudge.

As for doing it on the track, I don’t have an opinion. What are the drivers saying about it? Race others how you want to be raced I guess…

Edited by ARTGP, 29 May 2023 - 02:29.


#22 BoDarvelle

BoDarvelle
  • Member

  • 1,332 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 29 May 2023 - 03:16

Take the time to click on the picture links above

 

I watched the race.

 

My comment stands.



#23 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 20,436 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 29 May 2023 - 03:31

I've watched a lot of Indy 500s, but I don't remember ever seeing weaving of this magnitude. What I saw today is crazy and needs to be reigned in dramatically. 

 

I cannot see the pic either and had the same problem as you before, picture I posted did not show up. It get the style width & height 0. Maybe OS related? I run Ubuntu and Chrome (tested also with Firefox).

In the editor here, I can see you picture in the quote, will be interesting to see if it is still visible after I click "Add Reply"


Edit: Found the problem, posted fix in Website Feedback

Muchas gracias!


Edited by AustinF1, 30 May 2023 - 06:05.


#24 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 20,436 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 29 May 2023 - 03:32

Yes, something needs to be done about this before we have an absolute nightmare of a crash.

Yep. They were lucky enough that that wheel didn't kill some folks.



#25 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 39,658 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 29 May 2023 - 04:16

Every driver needs to be dragged into a room and told that was unacceptable. They are hurtling around at damn near 400kmh, some of the .over I saw today were outright dangerous.

Indycar needs to get on top of driving standards, not just weaving, its going to end very badly.

#26 YamahaV10

YamahaV10
  • Member

  • 2,363 posts
  • Joined: June 21

Posted 29 May 2023 - 04:18

Someone asked about the racing line at Indianapolis on Quora. The snake pattern looks nothing like a conventional racing line.  The answer below covers it. It is about drafting. But why is drafting the biggest factor? It is partly a result of restrictions to slow the cars down.  If the cars had the aero/horsepower to make the best use of the track, there wouldn't be this snake racing line. The faster way around the track would just naturally be a conventional racing line. And anyone drooping down to the very bottom way before even the pit wall starts, would get passed by someone making a conventional corner exit.

 

At Indy, drafting and passing is pretty essential. A basic defensive technique is to deny the inside line to drivers behind you. By driving in the middle of the track, passing drivers would have to go so far to the inside of the opponent that their turning ability would be greatly compromised if they couldn't completely clear the opponent before corner entry.

This manifests itself in the goofy snake pattern you see. Even drivers who aren't defending follow the line because they want to be in the aero wake for fuel savings



#27 Rediscoveryx

Rediscoveryx
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 29 May 2023 - 05:51

One way of coming to terms with this is to employ an F1-style ”one move rule”.

#28 Ruudbackus

Ruudbackus
  • Member

  • 2,117 posts
  • Joined: October 18

Posted 29 May 2023 - 05:54

Weaving is to a degree part of it (the snake) but what Ericson did at the restart and then Newgarden towards the finish line was just plain dangerous.



#29 teejay

teejay
  • Member

  • 6,129 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 29 May 2023 - 06:27

They are going all out to win the Indy 500 - weaving has always been allowed late in the game. 



#30 BoDarvelle

BoDarvelle
  • Member

  • 1,332 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 29 May 2023 - 06:40

They're not blocking when they are weaving. They're trying to break the draft. Not particularly dangerous.

 

 



#31 LolaB0860

LolaB0860
  • Member

  • 1,748 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 29 May 2023 - 08:30

They are going all out to win the Indy 500 - weaving has always been allowed late in the game.


Why is it allowed late in the game but not early in the game?

#32 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • Member

  • 31,165 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 29 May 2023 - 08:43

This is surely easy to nip in the bud. No cars are permitted to have all four wheels or their transponder over the dotted line that divides the pit area and the race track, unless they're actually going into the pitlane. Drop a position if you do.



#33 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 17,497 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 29 May 2023 - 08:50

Why not have the pitlane entry on T3/T4 instead of the straight? Lengthen the wall to accommodate.

Edited by SenorSjon, 29 May 2023 - 08:50.


#34 Rediscoveryx

Rediscoveryx
  • Member

  • 3,403 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 29 May 2023 - 08:59

Why not have the pitlane entry on T3/T4 instead of the straight? Lengthen the wall to accommodate.

 

I guess this would be a problem for the road course.

 

Having thought a bit more about this weaving thing, my sense is that it's mostly a safety issue exiting turn 4 due to the pitlane entry. Not so much on the back straight. This could quite easily be solved by a rule that stipulates that any driver crossing the white line (or even touching it if you want to be conservative) must pit or receive a ten second penalty.



#35 Stephane

Stephane
  • Member

  • 4,305 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 29 May 2023 - 09:27

Nothing against the weaving, but yeah, they are now taking a bit too much liberty with pit entry for my liking.

 

On the other hand, the image from the front and the camera lens makes it seem more dangerous than it really is (and it is really dangerous, i agree)



#36 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 45,700 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 29 May 2023 - 09:29

I guess this would be a problem for the road course.

 

 

Walls can be temporary. Not a problem at all. In the F1 days they used to place a wall around the inside of the last turn (Oval T1) to separate the pit entrance from the track.

 

XPB_74537_HiRes-1.jpg



#37 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 29,055 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 29 May 2023 - 09:29

Even better maybe: No wheel may cross the solid diagonal line.

The line Ericsson has crossed and gone below here:

LNXbc5As_o.jpg

More importantly, he is inviting others to cross the line too.

Edited by ANF, 29 May 2023 - 09:33.


#38 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 45,700 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 29 May 2023 - 09:34

 

 

 

4w6QiNIo_o.jpg

 

As far as I'm concerned that solid white line is the commitment line to the pit lane, so going below that and into the apron below the broken line and then coming back out is extremely dangerous. That should be met with penalties in future.

 

The weaving to break the tow was also excessive, though apart from playing chicken with the pit wall is not particularly dangerous. I'd rather drivers made a single move and stuck to their line, but on the last lap of the Indy 500, you can excuse some excessive driving as long as its safe. Now back in the IRL days they had strict rules about coming off the racing line if it appeared defensive. Castronoves lost a win at Edmonton because of that. That was too far in the other direction.

 

I'd say this is more of a track limits and pit safety issue. I'd extend that wall to the inside of turn 4 and have cars enter via the warmup lane before turn 3. See photo above from F1 days.



#39 Stephane

Stephane
  • Member

  • 4,305 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 29 May 2023 - 09:38

Ah ah, Edmonton, there was even a line the defender could not cross. What a weird way that was of regulating racing.



Advertisement

#40 Peat

Peat
  • Member

  • 8,799 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 29 May 2023 - 09:41

Agree, one or both of the painted lines should be policed as a 'pit commit' line. 



#41 Ben1445

Ben1445
  • Member

  • 11,982 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 29 May 2023 - 09:45

I genuinely thought Newgarden was diving for the pits for a split second on that last lap

So I support making that a pit-commit line

#42 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 61,328 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 29 May 2023 - 09:58

Wow I don't follow the sport but that looks like an accident waiting to happen. :eek:


It did! Several times!

#43 dweller23

dweller23
  • Member

  • 1,565 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 29 May 2023 - 10:42

I'm not sure about this one... Drivers are fine with that, teams are fine with that, IndyCar is fine with that, most of the community is fine with that... It's almost as if a random bystander said "stop having fun because I have concerns about your safety" to some kind well-experienced performers (e.g. rope-walkers). Maybe, just maybe we need to focus more on our lives and people that are closest to us and maybe we should be concerned about these things rather than be concerned about how certain group of people performs their job without ever having an impact on our lives directly.



#44 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 17,497 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 29 May 2023 - 10:48

Walls can be temporary. Not a problem at all. In the F1 days they used to place a wall around the inside of the last turn (Oval T1) to separate the pit entrance from the track.

XPB_74537_HiRes-1.jpg

That wall still would make sense if someone messes up pit exit.

#45 Primo

Primo
  • Member

  • 2,459 posts
  • Joined: March 22

Posted 29 May 2023 - 11:35

If they want, they can use rule 9.3.2

Blocking - A Driver must not alter his/her racing line to pursuing Drivers.



#46 MattPete

MattPete
  • Member

  • 2,593 posts
  • Joined: January 00

Posted 29 May 2023 - 12:09

I think ducking down under the pitlane line in race conditions with no intent to pit is reckless. That pitlane divider could split a car in two if a couple of drivers playing silly buggers misjudge.

 

In the future, they should give a 5-second penalty for shenanigans like that.



#47 pacificquay

pacificquay
  • Member

  • 6,227 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 29 May 2023 - 12:16

I'm not sure about this one... Drivers are fine with that, teams are fine with that, IndyCar is fine with that, most of the community is fine with that... It's almost as if a random bystander said "stop having fun because I have concerns about your safety" to some kind well-experienced performers (e.g. rope-walkers). Maybe, just maybe we need to focus more on our lives and people that are closest to us and maybe we should be concerned about these things rather than be concerned about how certain group of people performs their job without ever having an impact on our lives directly.

Close the forum then 



#48 MurMur80

MurMur80
  • Member

  • 701 posts
  • Joined: August 17

Posted 29 May 2023 - 12:17

So it is okay in Indy 500 to use pitlane entry as race track? You get puncture or something doing that and you are going straight to the pitlane at 150mph minimum. 



#49 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 61,328 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 29 May 2023 - 12:19

It's something drivers have started doing more aggressively and it's probably time for whoever does Wally Dallenbach's job now to make a new rule.

It's probably reasonably safe right now for two cars to do it once a year, but if you don't enforce a rule then sooner or later the whole field is doing it on every restart and then you have a big risk.

#50 MKSixer

MKSixer
  • Member

  • 3,479 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 29 May 2023 - 12:23

I was watching the race with a few non-racing fans and they were shocked that those moves weren't penalized.  It looked awful and ovals are dangerous enough without those shenanigans.