64 replies to this topic

[F1Frog]

After two thirds of the unofficial 'Triple Crown' of motorsport took place yesterday, which of the three legs do you typically enjoy the most in the modern era? And which do you enjoy most historically (either because you liked watching it in the past, or because you enjoy reading about the history of it)?

 

I know that originally, the Triple Crown included the Formula 1 championship instead of the Monaco Grand Prix, but over time the definition seems to have changed somewhat, and it does make more sense for it to be the Monaco GP.

[Afterburner]

It was close between Le Mans and Indy for me, but when the ACO F’d up prototype racing I took an interest in Indy and now I think it’s the superior event. Both are more significant in stature than any individual Formula One race.

[Zmeej]

Monaco and the Indy 500 are very different animals.

 

To boot, the latter has often become a very different animal over the 122 years that it has been held. Personally got into racing because of it, when Mario Andretti won in 1969, and although I was distantly aware of F1/GPs, it/they didn't seize my interest until the mid-1970s, when Mario fully switched over.

 

At that point, I became equally enthused about the two races, and it remained that way for lo 20 years.

 

When CART took it over, the 500 was still good, but as most know that series and the Indy series went into a major decline, so that affected my take on the Big Race in Indianapolis too. In a sense, there was a kind of poetic justice when the USGP race at Indianapolis in 2005 became the most shambolic event in F1 history.

 

As Takuma Sato's fortunes rose, my interest in the Marecan race came alive again, and I was werra heppy that the Japanese driver won it.

 

Then there was another gap.

 

This year was the first that I watched both in a while.

 

*** 

 

Re Le Mans

 

It held my interest in the 1970s and 80s, but not since.

 

EDIT: This might have been a source of shame before I became at peace with my fogeyness, but I fear it's too late for that.

Edited by Zmeej, 29 May 2023 - 21:09.

[ARTGP]

If you told me I was only allowed to watch 1 of these races in 2023 , I would pick the 24 hours of Le Mans. For 2024, it would still be Le Mans. Previous seasons depend on how much competition there was at Le Mans. So basically everything revolves around Le Mans for me. 2009-2016 easily Le Mans. Even ‘17-‘19 GTEPro was enough to still pick Le Mans. So many entries and 4 races in 1 lasting 24 hours. It’s such an incredible experience to take in.

Edited by ARTGP, 29 May 2023 - 17:45.

[LolaB0860]

Monaco is fine but it feels like just another F1 round now that there are 67 races in a season and 32 of them are on street circuits (and they took away some of the things that made it unique, like Thursday practices etc)

 

Le Mans was the greatest race on Earth until couple of years ago when ACO decided to completely give up racing with technical regulations, now I refuse to watch any of it

 

Indy has some issues like the ones we saw yesterday but out of the three it's the one that has kept the spirit best, the build-up is great

Edited by LolaB0860, 29 May 2023 - 17:55.

[Ruudbackus]

It's a tough call as it is 3 different disciplines of racing.

 

- The endurance that comes with Le mans has its magic, the sundown and sunset hours are amazing to follow. And there are multiple clases in 1 race. 

- The sheer feel of speed of Monaco driving between the barriers. Being on edge for 72 laps to not make a mistake

- The same feel of speed of the indycars flying over the oval and a guarantee for a battle till the end

 

But they all have their downsides too

 

- Le mans has little cars in the top class the last few seasons so the tension in the LMP1 is not really there.

- Monaco has a name for a track where overtaking is impossible and besides strategy overtakes are indeed rare (not counting sargeant :-)) making it all about qualifying

- and the indy 500 feels like a bit of a lottery, its unpredicatable but it does mean that the best/fastest driver doesn't neccesarily win

 

Out of the 3, Monaco has the most nostalgia for myself as F1 was the first motorsport class i started to follow. So i voted that for historical. For current I voted for Le mans, as we still have that one to come :-)

[Spillage]

Indy is usually the most exciting but there's just something about Monaco that I love. I don't know why. It's a truly unique spectacle.

[juicy sushi]

Monaco is a terrible race, and has been for decades.  Thankfully Formula E exists.  Indy is back to being what it was when I was first becoming a fan of the sport, and is a proper EVENT.  Le Mans has been dull for a very long time, with the fun being in pockets, rather than the headliner.  But this year we've got Ferrari vs Porsche vs GM vs Toyota, with guest stars, and next year it'll be even crazier.  It's finally something where the headline event is the actual main event again.

[mjjTT]

I always look forward to Monaco. Especially qualification.

 

Le Mans, the night driving is unbelievable.

 

I have huge respect for the drivers of the Indy 500. But it’s not my cup of tea. 

[OvDrone]

Indy 500 is the absolute top tier peak product and event right now.

Historically it is Le Mans for me with the 2011 Le Mans 24 Hours being my absolute favorite all time race so far. 

We shall see if the new golden era in WEC/IMSA can push Le Mans beyond the 500 right now.

It might be done with all the manufacturers, Valentino Rossi looming in the background with BMW, Verstappen hinting at it sooner rather than later and with Indycar trying to outdo Formula 1 at their own cursed entertainment nonsense. 

[Sterzo]

For me, drivers battling a fantastic circuit constitutes a large part of the appeal. These three events all have great circuits, but Monaco tops the lot. That's why I nominate it as the best of Frog's legs.

[potmotr]

Indy 500

Bathurst 100 

Le Mans

 

All achievable for the right guy 

[Collombin]

Indy 500
Bathurst 100
Le Mans

All achievable for the right guy

I assume Geoff Brabham got the closest to that one?

[Stephane]

Depends on the years.

 

From here in Europe, the Indy 500 has this 'murica flavour that makes it feel a bit more "regional" than Le Mans. Monaco is only another GP now, with a little bit glamour, but for how long ?

 

So, each event has its particularities, and that's great for me.

 

 

Also, since Monaco and Indy are now on the same day every year, it's a special day as a fan.

[potmotr]

I assume Geoff Brabham got the closest to that one?

 

It's a tricky one! Depends whether you consider the 1997 Supertouring Bathurst as a valid Bathurst win...

 

...which I certainly don't!

Which probably makes the most successful driver in all three events... Alexander Rossi?

[Zmeej]

It's a tough call as it is 3 different disciplines of racing.

 

- The endurance that comes with Le mans has its magic, the sundown and sunset hours are amazing to follow. And there are multiple clases in 1 race. 

- The sheer feel of speed of Monaco driving between the barriers. Being on edge for 72 laps to not make a mistake

- The same feel of speed of the indycars flying over the oval and a guarantee for a battle till the end

 

But they all have their downsides too

 

- Le mans has little cars in the top class the last few seasons so the tension in the LMP1 is not really there.

- Monaco has a name for a track where overtaking is impossible and besides strategy overtakes are indeed rare (not counting sargeant :-)) making it all about qualifying

- and the indy 500 feels like a bit of a lottery, its unpredicatable but it does mean that the best/fastest driver doesn't neccesarily win

 

Out of the 3, Monaco has the most nostalgia for myself as F1 was the first motorsport class i started to follow. So i voted that for historical. For current I voted for Le mans, as we still have that one to come :-)

 

Great post.

[Dolph]

Le Mans:

I have attended it in 2015 and 2018 and plan to attend again in 2024. I attended in 2015 due to the size of the top class and its the same reason for attending in 2024. The bang for the buck is amazing and you can just chill in between. I love the experience live, but the event has really been let down in the last 20 years by lack of competition at the front. If its just two Toyotas going for the overall win, its just not that exciting. I think 2023 can be the revitalization of the race, but I dislike the fact that the winner can be decided by BOP. In 2015 for example, the Toyota's had zero chance. Its was simply sad to watch.

 

 

Monaco:

The qualy is intense and so is the start. But then it really dies down. Nobody can really overtake anyone. Its mostly a bore after the start. Ricciardo even won with a broken car. That really tells you how much track position means and what the opportunity for true racing is there. Monaco needs possibilities for some passing.

 

 

Indy:

The qualy is emotional and intense. The mass pitsstops and restarts are intense and the final stint is always true edge of your seat stuff. Its the only race of the three that keeps my attention in qualy and throughout the race and you can't predict the winner before the race.

Edited by Dolph, 29 May 2023 - 23:19.

[jonpollak]

Indy 500....

But if someone besides Toyota wins at this year's 24 Heures du Mans..... Might be a game changer.

 

Jp

[Primo]

If I'd found a decent 24 hour broadcast of Le Mans, it would probably rise to the top. The snippets does not capture me. Like both Indy 500 and Monaco, you must be there mentally to enjoy it.

[TomNokoe]

Indy is a true sporting challenge requiring a blend of skill, experience, finesse and racecraft not seen anywhere else. I think it's much harder to win. It is also a very individual event.

Le Mans for me is less of a sporting challenge, it is about teamwork and reliability. More of a mental challenge than outright driving skill.

[Lennat]

I've come to truly love Indy over the years. I think Alonso's 2017 race made me fall properly in love with it.

Monaco is second. I really enjoy it and consider it slightly more important than most other F1 races (but not as important as Suzuka which is my favorite track).

As for Le Mans, I find it much more fascinating when there is a proper manufacturer war rather than an attempt to create close competition through the use of balance of performance, but I've never cared about it as much as even some random Tilkedrome F1 race.

Edited by Lennat, 30 May 2023 - 00:04.

[Afterburner]

As for Le Mans, I find it much more fascinating when there is a proper manufacturer war rather than an attempt to create close competition through the use of balance of performance, but I've never cared about it as much as even some random Tilkedrome F1 race.

BoP doesn’t bother me anywhere near as much as the asinine safety car rules, which on balance are probably far more destructive to the “natural” flow of the race.

[RedRabbit]

The problem I have with Indy500 is that it feels too much like a lottery in the last few laps. It doesn't feel like the best driver wins it recently.

If Takumo Sato and Marcus Ericsson can win it twice or nearly twice, there's a problem.

Monaco is too much about qualifying, but it's still a great event to watch F1 cars through narrow barriers.

If I was only allowed to watch 1, it would be the LM24. A driver can really shine in their stint and set backs can be overcome because of the sheer length of the race.

[Dolph]

The problem I have with Indy500 is that it feels too much like a lottery in the last few laps. It doesn't feel like the best driver wins it recently.

If Takumo Sato and Marcus Ericsson can win it twice or nearly twice, there's a problem.

Monaco is too much about qualifying, but it's still a great event to watch F1 cars through narrow barriers.

If I was only allowed to watch 1, it would be the LM24. A driver can really shine in their stint and set backs can be overcome because of the sheer length of the race.

And theres your problem. Acting as if Takuma Sato or Marcus Ericsson cant be great oval racers just because they weren't on Senna's level in F1, that has no ovals.

[JHSingo]

I suppose Le Mans is the one that has captured my imagination for the longest. I've always thought there was something really cool about a race that goes on through the night, and Le Mans is still the original and best 24 hour race for me. The last few years haven't been so great, with only Toyota in the top class and a single spec LMP2 class (I've made my disdain for this well known elsewhere on this forum before), and the Covid affected years with limited spectators felt fairly lackluster. 

 

But, I'm really looking forward to this year. Even though Toyota will probably win again, based on WEC results so far this year... 

 

I love Indy too, so it's splitting hairs in many ways. If I had to try and explain why I preferred Le Mans to Indy, it'd probably just stem from being slightly more knowledgeable about the history of Le Mans than I am about Indy. I didn't 'discover' the 500 till much later than Le Mans. In fact, I still remember one of the first Autosport magazines I ever bought was after Dario won in...'07? The year it rained heavily in the closing stages, and Autosport featured him on the front cover. 

 

I've been an F1 fan the longest, and I still get excited for Monaco. A lot of it is part of how "special" the event feels, rather than the actual racing though. Whilst a lot of F1 events feel so similar that they're pretty indistinguishable from each other, Monaco still stands out. 

[PayasYouRace]

Indy is my favourite; as it’s the most exciting and fun. But I’ve been fairly late to the party, as I started watching in 1996, so it ironically didn’t figure in my formative Indycar years.

Monaco has the most historic significance to me, as I’ve always had the biggest awareness of it. It might not always produce the best races, but it’s a unique challenge within F1. This year was pretty good though.

Le Mans has always been a third place for me. It’s just impossible for me to follow the whole race. I watch the start and then check in throughout the day, and watch the last couple of hours if it’s looking exciting. Still on my bucket list to attend.

I’ve not attended any of them, and I’d dearly love to.

What I love about all three is that they’re still essentially held on the same bits of road/track that Harroun, Lagache and Leonard, and Williams all won on. Very special.

[TheFish]

I have never looked forward to Monaco, and I've always been baffled by people who love it.

 

Like, I get it for the media guys, they get a great weekend in Monaco for free and have great parties and ****, of course they're going to think it's great. The rest of us watch a procession unless we get rain, and even then the fun is usually gone after about 3 laps. The only tension being if someone is going to **** it up, and it's pretty much exclusively the same predictable few anyway.

[PayasYouRace]

I’m equally baffled by those who can’t appreciate the challenge of Monaco and why that makes it special.

[DeKnyff]

Le Mans is my favourite, among many other things because it is my oldest motor sports memory. Also, I was educated into motor sports mostly through French magazines, which had a huge coverage of the event, before and after the race. As others have said, Le Mans is not about outright speed, but it's a mental challenge and an engineering and team effort. Not necessarily the best race in terms of entertainment value, but when you enjoy it, it keeps you thrilled for... well, 24 hours. Also, there are several races at the same time, so there will always be some duel on track. However, I miss the old Hunaudières straight(*) without the chicanes.

 

Monaco for me has always been another F1 race in the calendar, it's fame coming more from the glamour side than from the racing itself. That said, it's a really difficult track, but races were better when overtaking was not impossible.

 

While I had known Indy since my childhood years, I had only superficial information about it from continental, non English-speaking, Europe. I only discovered it thanks to the internet in the 21st century and I'm liking it more and more, although I suspect lottery plays a significant part in the results.

 

 

(*) It's a mystery to me why the Anglo-Saxon world always refers to the Hunaudières straight as "the Mulsanne straight". Mulsanne is the corner at the end of the Hunaudières straight, but not the straight itself.

[TheFish]

I’m equally baffled by those who can’t appreciate the challenge of Monaco and why that makes it special.

 

After Danny Ric was driving 5 seconds a lap slower than he could have because of mechanical issues and still won... the challenge part was lost on me that day.

 

I watch sport to be entertained, I don't find Monaco entertaining.

[ArnageWRC]

I voted both for Le Mans, but it's not my favourite race, and I don't like the current layout of the track, particularly the Forest esses which have ruined the first section of the track - loads of run off and could be any other circuit; the Nordschleife is in another league as a pure driving test.

I also dislike the obsession with the race, as it overshadows the other great Sportscar races. It's similar to cycling where the TdF is the 'only race that matters' to too many people. Both sports have long seasons, yet both are signified by one event to a lot of followers and the general media........

 

 

[PayasYouRace]

(*) It's a mystery to me why the Anglo-Saxon world always refers to the Hunaudières straight as "the Mulsanne straight". Mulsanne is the corner at the end of the Hunaudières straight, but not the straight itself.

Probably because it’s considerably easier to pronounce.

[Risil]

Mulzan

[Beri]

Probably because it’s considerably easier to pronounce.

 

Or because people are lazy.

[PlatenGlass]

On the Monaco GP v the F1 championship, I think the championship makes sense in that it's the bigger thing to win. It's been said that the Monaco GP is worth half a championship and while that's just a random quote, there could be some grain of truth in it. In the same sense the Indy 500 is probably worth 1.5 Indy championships, and Le Mans is worth 4.7 WEC championships.

 

But because F1 is generally seen as worth more than the other series, the Monaco GP might still be a bigger deal than the other races. I tend to see Le Mans in particular as a relic of the past. In its heyday (whenever exactly that was) it was something talked about by the wider public. Now it's just hardcore motor racing fans that it really ever enters the consciousness of and it just exists as a name. The Indy 500 is probably also way past its peak in that respect, but to nowhere near the same extent. Indycar racing is still a thing. And in that sense, I think F1 has lost the least. It's still a big deal in the wider world. And while the Monaco GP doesn't transcend the championship in the way the other races do, F1's greater coverage and general clout with the public and having drivers that are known about means that it's still the one to watch and the one to win.

[Myrvold]

Or because people are lazy.

 

Or, because it's normal in some places to "name" things based on where they are heading.

 

I know the road between the city I grew up and the neighbour city does have a name, but everyone calls it "*name of city* - road" based on the direction they are heading. 

[Beri]

Or, because it's normal in some places to "name" things based on where they are heading.

 

I know the road between the city I grew up and the neighbour city does have a name, but everyone calls it "*name of city* - road" based on the direction they are heading. 

 

But the road has a name. Plus it is not that you wouldnt know what someone means when (s)he says; A car is driving on the Hunaudières Straight. Its just lazy. Much like people still naming the Curva Michele Alboreto the Parabolica.

[PayasYouRace]

But the road has a name. Plus it is not that you wouldnt know what someone means when (s)he says; A car is driving on the Hunaudières Straight. Its just lazy. Much like people still naming the Curva Michele Alboreto the Parabolica.

Stop being lazy and call it the D338, then.

[Sterzo]

But the road has a name. Plus it is not that you wouldnt know what someone means when (s)he says; A car is driving on the Hunaudières Straight. Its just lazy. Much like people still naming the Curva Michele Alboreto the Parabolica.

It's no different from the long (if mystifying) tradition of modifying the native names of places in different languages. A Parisian would say I lived in Londres, a Roman would say in Londra, while I'd say they lived in Paris (pronounced Pariss) and Rome (not Roma). The straight has been referred to as Mulsanne in English language publications since the year dot, and fellow enthusiasts would be confused if I called it something else.

 

Parabolica is a different matter. That's a name with real history, part of Monza tradition. At the risk of touching on a sensitive subject, some of us aren't keen on "memorial" names, finding it a disservice to the person whose name is used. For me Alboreto is the terrific driver I first saw in F3, not a place with sausage kerbs.

[Burtros]

Indy 500 for the spectacle

Le Mans for the atmosphere, although it was 2006 I last went so no idea how it’s changed

Monaco I see no point in anymore. Once it would have topped this list. It just doesn’t work as a race track with these buses they race in F1 now.

[Zmeej]

Parabolica is a different matter. That's a name with real history, part of Monza tradition.

 

Indeed.

 

BTW, the photo in my avatar is of Mario Andretti in a Lotus on the Parabolica.

 

Not, with all due respect, the Alboreto.

[Beri]

Stop being lazy and call it the D338, then.

 

It isnt a road. Else we would have called it that during the race, yes. But it is, when it is in use for the Le Mans 24 hrs, a part of an active racing track. Meaning it will have the designated name that the race organisers use. And the official name is Ligne Droite des Hunaudières. And not Mulsanne Straight.

[messy]

Le Mans for both, although it’s very very close historically with all three being properly box office in their time.

Actually, I’m gonna split the vote and say Monaco GP historically - because moments like Panis’s win for Ligier, Wurz and Schumacher banging wheels, Barrichello’s second for Stewart, Trulli’s only GP win, I think in that era a Monaco GP weekend just felt extra special. It’s very close - the ‘99 Le Mans weekend is maybe my #1 favourite memory in all of my life watching Motorsport - but hey.

‘99 Le Mans 24 Hours GOAT. All those weird and wonderful car designs, all those different manufacturers and top class drivers, the unpredictable result being decided so late on and victory for Pierluigi Martini and Jo Winkelhock? Top that.

I enjoy the Indy 500 too and I think there’s an argument that of the three it’s the most consistently exciting, maybe doesn’t have the same magical memories for me though. I think objectively both LM and Indy are bigger events than Monaco GP, which is just another race and some would argue the ‘triple crown’ is the F1 Championship title rather than that single race (Jacques Villeneuve would, anyway)

Edited by messy, 30 May 2023 - 10:58.

[Collombin]

Well he's completely right but don't cite his opinion on it as he has a vested interest.

[PayasYouRace]

It isnt a road. Else we would have called it that during the race, yes. But it is, when it is in use for the Le Mans 24 hrs, a part of an active racing track. Meaning it will have the designated name that the race organisers use. And the official name is Ligne Droite des Hunaudières. And not Mulsanne Straight.

I was obviously being facetious in the face of your anality.

You said “the road has a name” so I gave you the name of the road.

[Stephane]

Eau Rouge or Raidillon ? (Or turn 3 ?)

[Collombin]

The Flugplatz is another one, obvious how the mistake occurs though.

[Alan Lewis]

Haven't voted.

All three are different to each other and that diversity is the heart of the attraction I have towards the rich universe of motorsport.

[Myrvold]

Much like people still naming the Curva Michele Alboreto the Parabolica.

 

Hmmm I guess you should contact Autdoromo Monza themselves ;)

 

 

Picture Link for the ones like me who don't see pictures: https://i.imgur.com/CydVWkg.png

[Rinehart]

Those 3 plus the Bathurst 1000 are my Quintuple Crown, don't care what anyone else says, the 4 races I most look forwards to each year (with the exception of the F1 season opener)! 

Hard to say which is my favourite, they all represent different challenges and mean different things.

Any one of them can be a borefest or an epic in any given year, thats part of the appeal. 

But just appreciating the commitment and visual trance of any of those, never gets old.