116 replies to this topic

[realracer200]

Rain @ Monaco and we still had 18 cars seeing the chequered flag. Back in the 80s or 90s only 7 or 8 cars would finish or something.

[Stephane]

Or drivers are just better

[Collombin]

Or drivers are just better

Yeah that must be it.

[MKSixer]

I think the cars are a bit more refined which isn't the same as easier but yields greater consistency combined with better prepared and more fit drivers.  

[scheivlak]

7 or 8 drivers finishing was not that unusual even in bone dry races those days.

 

Cars/engines/gearboxes/etc were far more fragile.

[azza200]

Back in the day the cars were smaller and had less downforce and required more skill a lot of 80's and 90's Monaco races were endurance challenges for the cars to last the full distance. Yes 18 cars finished but reliability has advanced so much across the whole motorsport these days. Sadly seeing the days of 5-6 cars finishing and an underdog getting a podium or high points finish are very rare 

[Zmeej]

Hmmm.

 

Might be tempted to agree if team owners/managers started drafting senior members of the Indy circuit with previous F1 experience (or none) to take the places of "the likes of children"

(Det. Tom Finnegan of the S6 Ep21 iteration of Homicide quote) presently making the rounds as pilotes.

 

Apart from that, not sure if the thread's title is an implied slur on Alonso or on Lance Stroll.

Edited by Zmeej, 29 May 2023 - 21:12.

[Bloggsworth]

No, stupid question.

[Primo]

In the seventies only half the grid had a seat on merit. Very few had advanced simulators (at that time you needed an array of people with flip books for a simulation as well as someone going "wroom wroom") and all driving coaches was in diapers. A car on the limit is a car on the limit.

[Collombin]

In the seventies only half the grid had a seat on merit.

And rain meant rain. I haven't seen this year's race but I doubt they would even start the race if it was at 1972 or 1984 levels. Plenty finished in 1972 didn't they?

[Zmeej]

[1] In the seventies only half the grid had a seat on merit.

 

[2] A car on the limit is a car on the limit.

 

Re 1 - That strikes me as kinda bold, but maybe it will mellow upon further consideration...

 

Re 2 - Indisputable.

[Risil]

Rain @ Monaco and we still had 18 cars seeing the chequered flag. Back in the 80s or 90s only 7 or 8 cars would finish or something.

Is this down to:

1) Fewer white lines, or perhaps grippier ones

2) Absence of stationary Eddie Irvine at Portier

3) That distracting poster of the Martini lady being taken down

4) All of the above?

[ARTGP]

The cars looked harder to drive in the wet than before with ground effect not working at all in low speed sections, suspension being much stiffer, and 18” tires being a lot less compliant than the 13” tires.

If you ever have the chance to get F1 TV, pick some onboards from when it rained and you will be surprised with how treacherous it actually was. The drivers were just that good.

Edited by ARTGP, 29 May 2023 - 21:28.

[TomNokoe]

I've thought for several years that the cars lack personality or dynamism from the driver. The car does all of the work. So long as the tyres are the right temperature, setup in the correct window, PU in the optimal battery mode, 95% of the lap time will come. I feel like in previous eras this percentage was much lower, leaving more lap time in the driver's hands, and also more variance in how each driver found the lap time.

 

 

Edited by TomNokoe, 29 May 2023 - 21:48.

[ARTGP]

I've thought for several years that the cars lack personality or dynamism from the driver. The car does all of the work. So long as the tyres are the right temperature, setup in the correct window, PU in the optimal battery mode, 95% of the lap time will come. I feel like in previous eras this percentage was much lower, leaving more lap time in the driver's hands, and also more variance in how each driver found the lap time.

 

Perez and Stroll would like a word 

[TomNokoe]

Perez and Stroll would like a word 

 

95%!! Maybe 90%.

[kumo7]

In addition to what we’re already said, perhaps, I voice the gaming sims that are now ubiquitous. Drivers are able to train on the wet Monaco more than ever.

Never the less safety standards does mean a higher avarage technical abilities.

Edited by kumo7, 29 May 2023 - 21:55.

[KWSN - DSM]

1983 race started wettish and became dry.

 

7 cars were classified, of those who did not finish 6 were due collisions, and 7 were various technical maladies. 

[Nathan]

Rain @ Monaco and we still had 18 cars seeing the chequered flag. Back in the 80s or 90s only 7 or 8 cars would finish or something.

 

Are modern F1 drivers simply much better than they ever have been before?

 

Personally, I think this is F1's first ever fully legitimate grid.

[Spillage]

To be honest it was much more due to luck than judgement that we didn't have about a dozen retirements yesterday. I don't think it's down to how easy the cars are to drive.

[Zmeej]

Personally, I think this is F1's first ever fully legitimate grid.

 

Interesting, and kinda bold.

Edited by Zmeej, 30 May 2023 - 11:13.

[Zmeej]

To be honest it was much more due to luck than judgement that we didn't have about a dozen retirements yesterday. I don't think it's down to how easy the cars are to drive.

 

It could also be that cars are easier to control in adverse situations, rather than "easier to drive" over-all.

 

More importantly, the cars are certainly more resilient than they were - e.g. the damage sustained by Alonso's wheel might have been game over for the suspension earlier.

Edited by Zmeej, 29 May 2023 - 22:14.

[ANF]

Eighteen cars may have taken the chequered flag yesterday, but I think the majority of drivers either hit the barriers or went down an escape road in the wet, so I don't think the cars were too easy to drive.

[jwill189]

The soft plastic wrapped around the barriers makes it less likely that contact will break the suspension. I've never seen so much bouncing off walls go unpunished.

[Primo]

Personally I think the cars actually get harder and harder to drive, simply because they become more and more different from a "normal" car. In the seventies, more or less anyone could step into a F1 car and do a decent lap but if you put Mr Hotshot with experience only from his souped up Corolla, he'd be lucky to get around the track. Todays drivers have trained for this since they where in the kinderwagen, and they have trained as professional athletes, not like James Hunt. The "limit" on a modern car is very sharp and very unforgiving. 

[KWSN - DSM]

Are modern F1 drivers simply much better than they ever have been before?

 

Personally, I think this is F1's first ever fully legitimate grid.

 

I think the 1983 had plenty of credence

1       Alain Prost	    - Multiple WDC
2	René Arnoux	    - Multiple GP Wins
3	Eddie Cheever	    - Won Indy 500
4	Patrick Tambay      - Multiple GP Wins
5	Keke Rosberg	    - WDC
6	Nelson Piquet	    - Multiple WDC
7	Andrea De Cesaris	
8	Jacques Laffite	    - Multiple GP Wins
9	Jean-Pierre Jarier
10	Derek Warwick	
11	Michele Alboreto    - Multiple GP Wins
12	Marc Surer
13	Mauro Baldi	
14	Nigel Mansell	    - WDC
15	Chico Serra	
16	Manfred Winkelhock
17	Riccardo Patrese    - Multiple GP Wins
18	Raul Boesel	    - Group C World Champion
19	Elio De Angelis	    - GP Winner
20	Danny Sullivan      - Won Indy 500, won Cart championship

[Zmeej]

Eighteen cars may have taken the chequered flag yesterday, but I think the majority of drivers either hit the barriers or went down an escape road in the wet, so I don't think the cars were too easy to drive.

 

Yes they did, but I’ll hazard the suggestion that far more would have DNFed in similar conditions back in the day. That doesn’t necessarily mean that

- today’s cars are easier to drive, or

- today’s drivers are better drivers.

[RedRabbit]

The soft plastic wrapped around the barriers makes it less likely that contact will break the suspension. I've never seen so much bouncing off walls go unpunished.

This is a big factor, and it's a good thing. Endless Safety Cars or Red Flags is not interesting.

The cars also seem to be built more robust this year, somehow. The 2000s cars would have ripped wheels off anyway against TecPro.

[JimmyClark]

The barriers are also a lot further back at Monaco. Since the changes in 2003, there have been many less retirements from accidents.

[PayasYouRace]

The barriers are also a lot further back at Monaco. Since the changes in 2003, there have been many less retirements from accidents.

In like, 3 places. St Devote apex, and each end of the swimming pool. For about 90% of the circuit they’re not further back than they’ve been since about 1976. At Portier they’re actually closer than they were for many years.

[JHSingo]

So, basically, you're unhappy that more people didn't stuff it in the barriers? 

 

Cars are more reliable, there's fewer drivers on the grid than at any point in the 80s or 90s, and there's no one on the grid you can really point to as being so far out of their depth they're at risk of drowning. 

 

But sure, it must be that the cars are "too easy" to drive...

[kumo7]

So, basically, you're unhappy that more people didn't stuff it in the barriers?

Cars are more reliable, there's fewer drivers on the grid than at any point in the 80s or 90s, and there's no one on the grid you can really point to as being so far out of their depth they're at risk of drowning.

But sure, it must be that the cars are "too easy" to drive...

Sort of. But I cherish seeing the drivers fighting more. Shorter wing car with no front and rear wings, is what want to see.

[SenorSjon]

The soft plastic wrapped around the barriers makes it less likely that contact will break the suspension. I've never seen so much bouncing off walls go unpunished.

 

Current carbon suspensions are way stronger. Look at how easily Hill's suspension bent in 1994 with the Schumacher collision.

 

The barriers are also a lot further back at Monaco. Since the changes in 2003, there have been many less retirements from accidents.

 

 

In like, 3 places. St Devote apex, and each end of the swimming pool. For about 90% of the circuit they’re not further back than they’ve been since about 1976. At Portier they’re actually closer than they were for many years.

 

Well, it makes many corners less unsighted than before with the barriers back a bit. It also seems St. Devote had more overtakes in the past than now. It looks to me the corner has sped up considerably with the new pit exit. The corner isn't as blind as it was. 

 

1999 onboard: 

In fact It looked a lot lighter with less tall buildings. 

[Colbul1]

It also seems like they are building the cars stronger these days.  There were plenty of drivers brushing the walls and clattering into eachother and were able to carry on.  Max's whack on the pit straight in qualifying astounded me that it didn't break the front corner!

[PayasYouRace]

Current carbon suspensions are way stronger. Look at how easily Hill's suspension bent in 1994 with the Schumacher collision.




Well, it makes many corners less unsighted than before with the barriers back a bit. It also seems St. Devote had more overtakes in the past than now. It looks to me the corner has sped up considerably with the new pit exit. The corner isn't as blind as it was.

That’s still one corner. And the only other corners where sight lines have changed are the two swimming pool chicanes. The latter in particular has had many more notable accidents in its current “open” configuration than it did in the old shape. It’s actually more difficult.

[Myrvold]

Personally, I think this is F1's first ever fully legitimate grid.

2008 & 2009 joins the discussion.

[Myrvold]

I think the 1983 had plenty of credence

1       Alain Prost	    - Multiple WDC
2	René Arnoux	    - Multiple GP Wins
3	Eddie Cheever	    - Won Indy 500
4	Patrick Tambay      - Multiple GP Wins
5	Keke Rosberg	    - WDC
6	Nelson Piquet	    - Multiple WDC
7	Andrea De Cesaris	
8	Jacques Laffite	    - Multiple GP Wins
9	Jean-Pierre Jarier
10	Derek Warwick	
11	Michele Alboreto    - Multiple GP Wins
12	Marc Surer
13	Mauro Baldi	
14	Nigel Mansell	    - WDC
15	Chico Serra	
16	Manfred Winkelhock
17	Riccardo Patrese    - Multiple GP Wins
18	Raul Boesel	    - Group C World Champion
19	Elio De Angelis	    - GP Winner
20	Danny Sullivan      - Won Indy 500, won Cart championship

You are missing quite a few drivers on that list though.

[Collombin]

You are missing quite a few drivers on that list though.

Presumably they were the 20 starters. So all those guys did better than Lauda.

[F1Frog]

I think drivers today are sort of the best ever.

 

Over the history of Formula 1 (and motor racing in general), I think we can probably safely say that 'the greats' have always been at approximately the same level. Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton are all similarly good drivers, and in terms of what order they should be in, it is impossible to know, but that is why the GOAT debate is so much fun.

 

However, the level of the grid overall today is far closer to Hamilton or Verstappen than the 1950s grids were to Fangio or Moss. Sergio Perez is able to qualify extremely close to Max Verstappen most of the time, and occasionally just ahead of him, whereas Juan Manuel Fangio could often put huge gaps between himself and Peter Collins, for example. This is not because Fangio is better than Verstappen, or because Perez is better than Collins. Instead, I would say that it is because modern F1 drivers get so much more help than drivers of the past. All the simulator work, the telemetry, and the training, brings Perez and Bottas almost onto the level of Verstappen and Hamilton, whereas in the 1950s other drivers had to work it out for themselves. Stirling Moss once said, 'the greatest classroom of all time was about two car lengths behind Juan Manuel Fangio,' and he learnt a lot from following him when they were Mercedes teammates, but Bottas doesn't need to do the same to learn from Hamilton. These things which help other drivers also help Hamilton and Verstappen of course and they, along with the fact that they don't need to worry about crashing as much so can push the limits more, mean that current drivers will be closer to the absolute perfect lap time than those of the past, but it doesn't make them greater because it is because they get more help.

 

So personally, I think that modern F1 drivers are better than those of the past, but because they get more help rather than because they are actually better.

Edited by F1Frog, 30 May 2023 - 09:39.

[HP]

Drivers in their respective time, all were top notch. Some things have changed, and withn that our perception on who where the better driver. I just admire drivers year by year, instead of trying to figure out where the belong to. Of course, those who have several WDC's have established themselves over their contemporary drivers, but that is about it. If we start from the last year only Verstappen has a WDC, and thus Hamilton would be a mediocre driver. That's obviously not true, looking at the 8 years before. What we can say Hamilton, Verstappen, etc. are a number greater than their team mates. It was back since the beginning of F1 til today the clearest indicator of greatness. How well a driver did against his teammate. More than that is mostly up to debate.

 

 

Eighteen cars may have taken the chequered flag yesterday, but I think the majority of drivers either hit the barriers or went down an escape road in the wet, so I don't think the cars were too easy to drive.

 

That and the track has seen a few changes.

Edited by HP, 30 May 2023 - 09:12.

[KWSN - DSM]

You are missing quite a few drivers on that list though.

 

It is the grid for the 1983 Monaco GP - as much 1 to 1 as can be.

[Myrvold]

It is the grid for the 1983 Monaco GP - as much 1 to 1 as can be.

Ah. It was that literal "current grid".
I thought of the year as a whole.

[Goron3]

The bulking up of the front suspension has made a huge difference. I'm amazed at how strong the front ends of the cars are nowadays.

[PlatenGlass]

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is that plenty of drivers went off on Sunday, but cars were much easier to stall in the past, and that generally meant retirement. It might not make a massive difference but it's something.

[PayasYouRace]

And now with the hybrids they can self start, so stalling isn’t a problem anyway.

[pacificquay]

If the cars were too easy to drive, then Verstappen wouldn't be able to show his advantage over Perez nor Alonso show his dominance over Stroll

[Burtros]

For me it’s down the how much more robust the cars are. There was a lot of wheel banging that they got away with, and I’m sure that 25 years ago Russell would have caused a sweep up job when he rejoined and Perez hit him.

[B Squared]

Please tell me how anyone here could possibly know unless they are a world-class driver with multiple eras of F1 machines in their collection to make a true assessment.

[Zmeej]

Hmmm.

 

Not sure what to tell you.

 

Could tell you that 

 

a) your criteria would eliminate any kind of discussion of the sort that occurs in this forum;

b) you appear not to understand the purpose of this forum, which is for folks to share their observations and opinions;

c) you’re right, but kinda pointlessly;

d) you’re wrong, because very few, if any, world-class drivers have multiple eras of F1 machines in their collection, but a small number of them have driven F1 machines from multiple eras.

 

But then, could also ask: what do you mean by “world class driver”?

 

Could also ask: if a world class driver had a collection of F1 machines from multiple eras but they were all from the back of the grid, would his opinion not be skewed and not entirely pertinent?

 

Hope you see what I mean.

Edited by Zmeej, 30 May 2023 - 11:12.

[Primo]

Please tell me how anyone here could possibly know unless they are a world-class driver with multiple eras of F1 machines in their collection to make a true assessment.

Actually, the simulators are pretty good nowadays.