94 replies to this topic

[TheFish]

 

A commentator on the hit Netflix show Formula 1: Drive to Survive has been sacked from his job with a rival racing championship after complaints of inappropriate behaviour towards women.

 

Jack Nicholls, who also provides Formula One coverage for the BBC, lost his job working for the Formula E championship after an external investigation by an employment specialist.

 

A spokesperson for the electric racing championship said: “Formula E can confirm that an investigation was carried out in response to complaints of inappropriate behaviour received about Jack Nicholls.

 

Following this investigation, Jack Nicholls’s contract to provide race commentary was terminated.”

 

Nicholls said: “Although disappointed with the decision, I respect it and accept why it was taken. I want to take full responsibility for what I did and apologise unreservedly for a couple of isolated incidents that has made those concerned feel uncomfortable. I never meant any harm and I am committed to making amends and to be more mindful of my behaviour in future.”

 

Sources with knowledge of the investigation said it was launched after a formal complaint in March and uncovered allegations of inappropriate touching made by three individuals, one of whom had been in a relationship with Nicholls. During the inquiry Nicholls was not allowed to travel to Formula E circuits around the world, instead providing his commentary on races remotely from a base in London.

 

Seemed like he was well set to have a long career in F1 and always came across as likeable whenever i heard him, but clearly no place for this behaviour in 2023. I suspect we may have heard the last of him in motorsport.

 

[Risil]

That's troubling.

[Disgrace]

Lose your dream career with this one simple trick.

[Jellyfishcake]

That is a very stupid thing to do, pretty much made himself unhirable as a commentator going forwards in this day and age.

 

A shame, I always enjoyed his work, but there's no place for that 

[Dolph]

I would have thought people took notice of the metoo movement. I work at top management level and specifically avoid any and all touching of people other than shaking hands. This is usually a thin when someone has a birthday in the office and is receiving hugs. Some look strangely at me not hugging, but why would I ever open myself up for anything that could be considered inappropriate. 

 

[pacificquay]

I knew this was the case, never ceases to amaze me how stupid men can be,

 

And no, this is not about hugging people on their birthday before the “you can’t do anything these days” brigade gather pace.

[Risil]

I don't think we know precisely what Nicholls did. But it was evidently enough for Formula E to terminate his contract.

[Dolph]

I knew this was the case, never ceases to amaze me how stupid men can be,

 

And no, this is not about hugging people on their birthday before the “you can’t do anything these days” brigade gather pace.

 

 

Yeah, right. I've had women tell I'm staring at them, when I have not, etc. Luckily off work, though. I know you like to climb on your high horse all the time, but you don't know what you are talking about.

 

Honestly, your hypersensitivity and self-righteousness are long past their expiry date. The feminism is exhaustively boring. You can't help, but jump in and display how much better you are, right!? 

 

 

Anyway, my point was not to argue with someone, but rather that anyone living in a western society should have gotten the message after metoo. The fact, that Nicholls appears to not have, is more baffling than disappointing.

Edited by Dolph, 31 May 2023 - 21:39.

[TomNokoe]

The original article from The Times article is very unclear to the point of outright ambiguity. Unless further details emerge I am reluctant to pass judgement. I really hope this doesn't affect his position at BBC Radio 5 Live, but I fear it will.

[potmotr]

There's a ton of cancellation happening at the moment! 

[kumo7]

The original article from The Times article is very unclear to the point of outright ambiguity. Unless further details emerge I am reluctant to pass judgement. I really hope this doesn't affect his position at BBC Radio 5 Live, but I fear it will.

It was serious enough to have voices taken from an external agent, with or without top level commands. If it were initiated by the person who felt she was wrongfully treated, I say it is avoidable by his own conduct. If it were commanded internally then it had exceeded the codes of behavior if the industry.

Whether it is the result of feminism or a result of a code of conduct is yet unknown to me, therefore the consequence and the meaning to us could vary a bit. But I think we will not know what exactly is the issue.

[Seanspeed]

Yeah, right. I've had women tell I'm staring at them, when I have not, etc. Luckily off work, though. I know you like to climb on your high horse all the time, but you don't know what you are talking about.

 

Honestly, your hypersensitivity and self-righteousness are long past their expiry date. The feminism is exhaustively boring. You can't help, but jump in and display how much better you are, right!? 

 

 

Anyway, my point was not to argue with someone, but rather that anyone living in a western society should have gotten the message after metoo. The fact, that Nicholls appears to not have, is more baffling than disappointing.

Or in other words, you accept that MeToo is a thing, but you clearly resent it.  Because that would mean you cant continue to be demeaning towards women and their fight for actual equality and reasonable treatment.  

 

Feminism is only 'exhaustively boring' to those who clearly are too privileged and small minded to care about how others might be negatively affected by our current social structures.  "My life is totally fine, so it's super annoying how all these other people keep whining about stuff".  

Edited by Seanspeed, 31 May 2023 - 22:50.

[jonpollak]

Could someone explain this ambiguous snippet from the quoted article in the OP.

“ allegations of inappropriate touching made by three individuals, one of whom had been in a relationship with Nicholls.”

Sounds Totally Confusing.
Jp

[Chubby_Deuce]

Yeah, right. I've had women tell I'm staring at them, when I have not, etc.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that you were doing something to provoke this.

[Afterburner]

Or in other words, you accept that MeToo is a thing, but you clearly resent it. Because that would mean you cant continue to be demeaning towards women and their fight for actual equality and reasonable treatment.

Feminism is only 'exhaustively boring' to those who clearly are too privileged and small minded to care about how others might be negatively affected by our current social structures. "My life is totally fine, so it's super annoying how all these other people keep whining about stuff".

Far be it from me to speak for Dolph, whose history on this topic is unfamiliar to me, but your willingness to argue via character assassination says more about you than him, in my opinion.

When facts are scarce, we can only speculate, and the quality of speculative discussion is generally dependent on the good faith of the participants. Let’s try that.

[jonpollak]

2nd that emotion.

Jack is a decent human and I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

Jp

[pacificquay]

Could someone explain this ambiguous snippet from the quoted article in the OP.

“ allegations of inappropriate touching made by three individuals, one of whom had been in a relationship with Nicholls.”

Sounds Totally Confusing.
Jp

How is that ambiguous?

 

Having been in a relationship or even currently being in a relationship with someone does not give carte blanche to do as you please.

 

The fact complaints have been made, been investigated and even the perpetrator appears to have accepted he’s in the wrong should surely be a sign defending him is an odd take.

[jonpollak]

I’m sorry, I still don’t understand what the crisis is.

Can someone please…
Explain what these people did that’s so bad.

Jp

[Stephane]

Something done without consent is probably the best summary we can have.

[Risil]

I’m sorry, I still don’t understand what the crisis is.

Can someone please…
Explain what these people did that’s so bad.

Jp

The truth is we don't know, because there's almost certainly a wall of NDAs.

[SophieB]

Could someone explain this ambiguous snippet from the quoted article in the OP.

“ allegations of inappropriate touching made by three individuals, one of whom had been in a relationship with Nicholls.”

Sounds Totally Confusing.
Jp

The other two are elsewhere described as witnesses to what’s alleged to have happened to the complainant.

[Beri]

Seemed like he was well set to have a long career in F1 and always came across as likeable whenever i heard him, but clearly no place for this behaviour in 2023. I suspect we may have heard the last of him in motorsport.

 
This cancel culture is not the best thing for the business. Yes he has done what he has done. But that doesnt mean that he cant execute a similar job at a different company anymore, nor that people should not forgive him. 
In football there is a, somewhat, similar story. Marc Overmars was technical director at Ajax. Under his helm they became very successful and the technical heart of the club was strong. He brought in fantastic players, and thats me saying this as a Feyenoord fan. He decided to fling his dong on a picture to a female colleague and gone was Overmars. Subsequently the entire technical heart of the club imploded, wrong players were brought in and they recorded their worst finishing position in 14 years. In the meanwhile Overmars went to Antwerp FC and they are slowly becoming a stronghold in Belgium and can become champion for the first time since 1957.
 
It only shows that you shouldnt cancel someone because society demands this. You should punish that person and make that person suffer for what he/she/it/they/them has done. Just how it should be done. But canceling someone out, is in some cases the worst thing you can do.

[SophieB]

As we don’t know exactly what happened in the first place, I don’t think it’s reasonable to be able to say whether the reaction from Formula E was over the top or not. 

[FirstnameLastname]

So is that him Schofielded off now?

A real shame as he was superb in my book (Nichols, not Schofield)

2023 - you’d think these guys would be on the lookout for any potential career shelvers like this.

[southernstars]

Disappointed but not surprised to find that a thread about a male commentator losing his job for inappropriately touching women is filled with defenses of his behaviour and justifications as to why he shouldn't be punished and how, of course, it's all terrible feminism's fault.

 

And you all wonder why more women aren't involved in motorsport. It's almost like it's still full of sexist jerks who think that a man's commentary career is more important than being an actual decent human being...

[lewislorenzo]

I’m sorry, I still don’t understand what the crisis is.

Can someone please…
Explain what these people did that’s so bad.

Jp

They did something they shouldn’t have…actions have consequences

[pacificquay]

Of course the perpetrator generally tries to frame these things as “an isolated incident” or even “a couple of isolated incidents” when they’re invariably part of a pattern of  behaviour.

 

That’s why attempts to brush these things off as “but he’s a great football manager” tend to fall down.

[Ben1445]

I agree that the writing in The Times was not a shining example of clear and precise language, which doesn’t help anyone.

But from what is reported it seems fairly clear that the investigation found allegations of inappropriate behaviour towards three separate people, one of whom Jack was in a relationship with. Of those three people, one made allegations directly. The other two were made known to investigators via witnesses rather than those directly affected.

We don’t have much more to go on what exactly is was that he did other than ‘inappropriate touching’, and we’re not likely to either. The vagueness helps protect those involved, I’d imagine, so I won’t speculate. FE having him commentate remotely from London whilst the investigation was ongoing and then swiftly firing him at the conclusion of the investigation sounds to me like it was probably a) a serious complaint and b) handled fairly and pragmatically.

I don’t believe Formula E would fire him without good reason. He’s been the voice of the championship since day one and a very popular part of the broadcast team. It gives them a significant headache in terms of who will fill that role longer term, especially at a time when there’s already significant change to the broadcast lineup with Dario Franchitti going Part-time and Vernon Kay leaving for the BBC Radio 2 gig. It’s a problem they could do without, frankly.

Ben Edwards is probably about as good a replacement as you can find on short notice, so they’ve done well there for now.

Edited by Ben1445, 01 June 2023 - 07:35.

[PayasYouRace]

This cancel culture is not the best thing for the business. Yes he has done what he has done. But that doesnt mean that he cant execute a similar job at a different company anymore, nor that people should not forgive him.

If, IF, he’s done what is alleged, they why would anyone want to work with him on a regular basis? He’d have a lot of work to do to prove himself a trustworthy colleague again.

Your example of the pervert football manager isn’t exactly helping the case.

[taran]

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that you were doing something to provoke this.

 

Anyone who has seen videos of women in gyms desperately trying to catch men staring at them so they can act indignant know that is not always true...

[Stephane]

The only videos of that sort I see are all parodic 😁

[P123]

  This cancel culture is not the best thing for the business. Yes he has done what he has done. But that doesnt mean that he cant execute a similar job at a different company anymore, nor that people should not forgive him.  In football there is a, somewhat, similar story. Marc Overmars was technical director at Ajax. Under his helm they became very successful and the technical heart of the club was strong. He brought in fantastic players, and thats me saying this as a Feyenoord fan. He decided to fling his dong on a picture to a female colleague and gone was Overmars. Subsequently the entire technical heart of the club imploded, wrong players were brought in and they recorded their worst finishing position in 14 years. In the meanwhile Overmars went to Antwerp FC and they are slowly becoming a stronghold in Belgium and can become champion for the first time since 1957.   It only shows that you shouldnt cancel someone because society demands this. You should punish that person and make that person suffer for what he/she/it/they/them has done. Just how it should be done. But canceling someone out, is in some cases the worst thing you can do.

 

Clearly Overmars wasn't cancelled then.  He was justly sacked from his job due to his behaviour.  And then got a job elsewhere.

 

As for Nichols, it seems he has accepted the decision of his employers, so not some kneejerk reaction to 'cancel' him. 

[Ben1445]

 But that doesnt mean [...] that people should not forgive him.  

In the interests of finding common ground, I do think this is a valid point. Without the possibility of forgiveness and some kind of path back, there's precious little incentive for wrongdoers to own mistakes and learn from them. That can be a toxic environment which has the capacity to harm everyone in it. 

 

However, that should never be a shield from consequence or a free pass. 

[Ben1445]

I'm guessing there's still the outstanding question over whether he keeps the BBC 5 Live role for F1 commentary. 

 

He stood back from doing Monaco commentary, though according to the BBC this was Jack's decision rather than theirs. 

[pacificquay]

The number one priority for any employer in a situation like this will be the wellbeing of the complainers and other women in the organisation and beyond.

 

How good someone is at their job or where they go afterwards is clearly secondary to that.

[CSF]

Could someone explain this ambiguous snippet from the quoted article in the OP.

“ allegations of inappropriate touching made by three individuals, one of whom had been in a relationship with Nicholls.”

Sounds Totally Confusing.
Jp

 

The original article basically says that one of the women he was in a relationship with, which is against his contract and two witnessed it rather than being touched by him.

 

So... yeah. An oddly framed article which is designed to leave more questions than answers. I hate that. 

Edited by CSF, 01 June 2023 - 08:58.

[jjcale]

This kind of thing has been happening long before the #MeToo movement .... many many many many years ago when I was starting my first proper professional job there was a guy starting at the same time as me who had gone to school with me. We actually went to the same high school before Uni so I knew him quite well (including the fact that he had never been into girls - lets put it that way ... back in those days the vibe was dont ask, dont tell)  - and we was a kind of jokey, horse-playing backslapping kind of guy ... very friendly and outgoing - and very bright too ... anyway within, the first few days he had been sacked ... later we heard that a rather matronly lady had reported him for patting her on the buttocks .... I knew the guy and that the literally meant nothing by it and was he just playing around .... but that was it for him - he never worked in that field again ... his career was over before it started.

 

And that was many years ago ... 

 

The rules have been clear for a very long time .... I have no idea if this formula E guy was a creep or the reaction to him was over the top .... but you just cant do that sort of thing (esp as a man) .... so fellows - esp the younger ones among you - beware.   

[jjcale]

That said ... the "with whom he was in a relationship" angle here puts a slightly different spin on things  .... but that might have made it worse for him. 

 

Anyway we dont know the details .... and frankly I dont wish to know anymore.

 

Good luck to all concerned in the future .... if anyone behaved badly, I hope it doesnt happen again and lessons have been learned .... 

[jjcale]

I agree that the writing in The Times was not a shining example of clear and precise language, which doesn’t help anyone.

,...

 

I suspect its a good example of trying not to be sued .... so it helps them

[southernstars]

 ... anyway within, the first few days he had been sacked ... later we heard that a rather matronly lady had reported him for patting her on the buttocks .... I knew the guy and that the literally meant nothing by it and was he just playing around .... but that was it for him - he never worked in that field again ... his career was over before it started.

 

Good. I'm glad he got sacked and punished. He deserved it.

 

And here goes the sexism again...the poor widdle man was "friendly and outgoing and very bright too" but remember, it's super important we know that the woman he assaulted was "matronly". Because obviously that makes it okay. 

[F1matt]

Anyone who has seen videos of women in gyms desperately trying to catch men staring at them so they can act indignant know that is not always true...

 

 

We must go to different gyms. Most people I see in the gym are pleasant, polite, and just want to get on with their lives. 

 

 

Just an observation on this thread which started out by saying Jack Nicholls had lost one of his jobs because of inappropriate behaviour, that has now descended to comparisons with Philip Schofield and accusations of assaulting women. 

Edited by F1matt, 01 June 2023 - 10:57.

[Myrvold]

Good. I'm glad he got sacked and punished. He deserved it.

 

And here goes the sexism again...the poor widdle man was "friendly and outgoing and very bright too" but remember, it's super important we know that the woman he assaulted was "matronly". Because obviously that makes it okay. 

 

And the relevance that he seemingly is gay is weird as well.

It's not like enjoy a butt-slap from a heterosexual, male person "just for fun". It's still a butt-slap...

[jjcale]

And the relevance that he seemingly is gay is weird as well.

It's not like enjoy a butt-slap from a heterosexual, male person "just for fun". It's still a butt-slap...

 

Hey - what do I know, man ... at the time we were all sorry for the guy as clearly it was not meant as some kind of creepy sexual assault - as we knew the guy. - That's why I mentioned it. .... it was probably a misunderstanding that could have been dealt with by a stern talking to. 

 

The lady was about 20+ years older than us and higher on the office totem pole than us - so it wasnt some abuse of power by the guy .... I felt at the time (and still do) that someone firmly explaining to the guy - in his first proper job - what is and what is not appropriate at work - and an apology from him - would have been enough ... in the end, the guy lost a whole potential career. 

 

Its an extreme example but its relevant to show those who were saying that this is a modern phenomenon that its something that has happened for decades now ... so as I said ... the rules are clear by now.  

 

... anyway - I am only responding further as I have a lot of respect for you ... so I am going out of my way to explain what I thought was a not unreasonable post as I really dont want to make anyone feel uncomfortable -  and also sorry if I did. 

 

But this is a true thing that happened ... so I should be able to talk about it. 

[7MGTEsup]

Keep your hands and arms inside the car at all times. No matter how familiar you are with a colleague don't put your hands on them as you never know what someone will deem as inappropriate until it's too late.

[PayasYouRace]

Hey - what do I know, man ... at the time we were all sorry for the guy as clearly it was not meant as some kind of creepy sexual assault - as we knew the guy. - That's why I mentioned it. .... it was probably a misunderstanding that could have been dealt with by a stern talking to.

Even if he didn’t mean to molest her, he certainly did. I think that’s the lesson to be taken here.

[jjcale]

Even if he didn’t mean to molest her, he certainly did. I think that’s the lesson to be taken here.

 

That's exactly my point ....  we all know the rules by now (except maybe the very young) .... that's why I said, I dont even really want to know the details of of Jack Nicholl's story ... this is like speeding in the pitlane now  ... once it flashes up on the screen you can just wait for the penalty to be announced. 

 

... so dont do it.

[Risil]

I don't think it's helpful to compare Nicholls' transgressions (mostly unknown by us beyond the very general rubric of "inappropriate touching") with other unrelated ones that are on our minds. Not a good path for the thread to go down, too easy to lose sight of the actual topic.

[Marklar]

just FYI you can inappropriately touch someone even when you are in a relationship. otherwise rape would be fine too if it was between partners.

added bonus that he wasnt even allowed to have that relationship apparently.

Where feminism has gone too far is excusing any abuse committed by women as reactive abuse or whatever (plus to an extent feminism is preventing women from job opportunities for shaming them for doing traditional women work but thats a different discussion), however when it comes to calling out men being inappropriate to women we are still far away from getting a just society.

Edited by Marklar, 01 June 2023 - 12:00.

[RedRabbit]

Disappointed but not surprised to find that a thread about a male commentator losing his job for inappropriately touching women is filled with defenses of his behaviour and justifications as to why he shouldn't be punished and how, of course, it's all terrible feminism's fault.

And you all wonder why more women aren't involved in motorsport. It's almost like it's still full of sexist jerks who think that a man's commentary career is more important than being an actual decent human being...

Could not agree more with this! It doesn't matter that it's 2023, or we had #MeToo campaigns.

I am constantly baffled at how difficult it is for men to just be considerate around women.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I don't think it's helpful to compare Nicholls' (unknown) transgressions with other unrelated ones that are on our minds. Not a good path for the thread to go down, too easy to lose sight of the actual topic.

 

Exactly, we've no idea of the extent of his transgressions. It was obviously enough for them to take action but it's a bit uncomfortable seeing the words 'rape' and 'molestation' in the thread when we've no idea what happened.