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Jack Nicholls fired by Formula E for 'inappropriate behaviour'


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#51 MKSixer

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 11:53

I would have thought people took notice of the metoo movement. I work at top management level and specifically avoid any and all touching of people other than shaking hands. This is usually a thin when someone has a birthday in the office and is receiving hugs. Some look strangely at me not hugging, but why would I ever open myself up for anything that could be considered inappropriate. 

 

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I'm 100% with you on this.  When I was a mere field manager (Director Level), I stopped riding in cars with female employees and that was back in 2007.  To open yourself up to this when there is such a massive and permanent downside is unthinkable.  WTF was he thinking?!?!!



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#52 Claudius

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 11:59

Could not agree more with this! It doesn't matter that it's 2023, or we had #MeToo campaigns.

I am constantly baffled at how difficult it is for men to just be considerate around women.

 

Sweeping generalization doesn't help. 



#53 Ben1445

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 12:05

The Race's resident Formula E journalist Sam Smith has posted this on Twitter:

sniffermedia @sniffermedia · 16m
There’s a great book by @jonronson called ‘So, You’ve Been Publicly Shamed.’ You should read it. Perspective is everything. And if you are one of those people who chucks forth opinion and admonishment without knowing all the facts, well the shame is very much on you.

 

I pass no judgment in it, just seems to be related 



#54 MKSixer

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 12:05

So is that him Schofielded off now?

A real shame as he was superb in my book (Nichols, not Schofield)

2023 - you’d think these guys would be on the lookout for any potential career shelvers like this.

 

This is the actual issue.  The absolute last employee I let go which was over 10 years ago was based on financial impropriety.  At this point including bonuses he was making about $175K.  There were questions about roughly $5,000 in expenses which couldn't be reconciled and we escalated it to an external investigation to interview the vendors.  They disclosed the fraud and were permanently banned from being our vendor because of their part in it.  The employee was let go immediately, not for the fraud because people can make mistakes or be influenced to do negative things but for colossally bad judgement.  You bagged your $175K job for what amounted to $5K in gain.  He was too stupid to work for us.  Dishonesty can be dealt with and contained but stupidity can outflank you time and time, again.  

 

Jack was stupid. That is why he we let go.



#55 MKSixer

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 12:06

Sweeping generalization doesn't help. 

I'm reading it as "some men".



#56 Disgrace

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 12:12

The Race's resident Formula E journalist Sam Smith has posted this on Twitter:

sniffermedia @sniffermedia · 16m
There’s a great book by @jonronson called ‘So, You’ve Been Publicly Shamed.’ You should read it. Perspective is everything. And if you are one of those people who chucks forth opinion and admonishment without knowing all the facts, well the shame is very much on you.

 

I pass no judgment in it, just seems to be related 

 

If Nick Cohen is any indication, the last people I want to hear from are his journalist colleagues.



#57 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 12:18

The article itself leaves more questions than answers but I will say this, IF Jack did inappropriately touch the person in question then he should know better and can’t complain about the repercussions(losing his job), however if it’s a case of witnesses seeing some form of touch and interpreting it as inappropriate then that’s a different matter.

As other’s have mentioned already in this thread with the current cancel culture climate we live in, facts have to be properly established before we pass sweeping judgement, let’s see if more information comes to light.

#58 jjcale

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 12:25

This is the actual issue.  The absolute last employee I let go which was over 10 years ago was based on financial impropriety.  At this point including bonuses he was making about $175K.  There were questions about roughly $5,000 in expenses which couldn't be reconciled and we escalated it to an external investigation to interview the vendors.  They disclosed the fraud and were permanently banned from being our vendor because of their part in it.  The employee was let go immediately, not for the fraud because people can make mistakes or be influenced to do negative things but for colossally bad judgement.  You bagged your $175K job for what amounted to $5K in gain.  He was too stupid to work for us.  Dishonesty can be dealt with and contained but stupidity can outflank you time and time, again.  

 

Jack was stupid. That is why he we let go.

 

Yeah but there was an expectation that you would fire him .... or people would be looking at you funny .... its not like you had discretion.

 

And that is the issue sometimes ... no matter what we personally think of a situation, what is expected is of us is a very powerful force and people (bosses really .. ) act in accordance with perceived norms even more than they do in response to the situation in front of them  ... as you have set out by stating the extreme measures that you take to avoid even the risk of a false accusation. 


Edited by jjcale, 01 June 2023 - 12:26.


#59 southernstars

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 12:26

Hey - what do I know, man ... at the time we were all sorry for the guy as clearly it was not meant as some kind of creepy sexual assault - as we knew the guy. - That's why I mentioned it. .... it was probably a misunderstanding that could have been dealt with by a stern talking to. 

 

The lady was about 20+ years older than us and higher on the office totem pole than us - so it wasnt some abuse of power by the guy .... I felt at the time (and still do) that someone firmly explaining to the guy - in his first proper job - what is and what is not appropriate at work - and an apology from him - would have been enough ... in the end, the guy lost a whole potential career. 

 

Why should he have had to be taught not to hit women's bottoms? Why should he have got away with it? He shouldn't have to be told that is inappropriate at work! It doesn't take much intelligence to know it's inappropriate any time!

 

I'm 100% with you on this.  When I was a mere field manager (Director Level), I stopped riding in cars with female employees and that was back in 2007.  To open yourself up to this when there is such a massive and permanent downside is unthinkable.  WTF was he thinking?!?!!

 

You open yourself up to nothing if you keep your hands to yourself. This kind of thinking is so gross.

 

The Race's resident Formula E journalist Sam Smith has posted this on Twitter:

sniffermedia @sniffermedia · 16m
There’s a great book by @jonronson called ‘So, You’ve Been Publicly Shamed.’ You should read it. Perspective is everything. And if you are one of those people who chucks forth opinion and admonishment without knowing all the facts, well the shame is very much on you.

 

I pass no judgment in it, just seems to be related 

 

Here come his buddy boys! I can't wait to hear all the smears on the women involved.  :rolleyes:

 

I'm reading it as "some men".

 

But which men? And how am I, as a woman, supposed to know? I can't read minds. Creeps, rapists and sexual abusers don't have such character traits marked on their forehead. How many reactions to "XYZ assaulted me/raped me/was creepy to me" start with "Oh, but he seems like such a nice guy!"

 

As other’s have mentioned already in this thread with the current cancel culture climate we live in, facts have to be properly established before we pass sweeping judgement, let’s see if more information comes to light.

 

A third party firm already investigated. Careful sitting on that fence, you'll get splinters up your butt.



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#60 WOT

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 12:46

I'm coming from the other side in that a long time ago I was put in a position by a female boss that wanted my attention and played for my attention. I wasn't forthcoming and I was relegated in an upcoming promotion that was clearly mine.
 
From that day forward it clarified in my mind how dirty "politics" can get and to be absolutely clear in your own practices that you don't get caught with your pants down.


#61 Nathan

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 12:54

 

You open yourself up to nothing if you keep your hands to yourself. 

 

 

No, this is ignorant.  I worked in a female dominated industry for some time and I've seen first hand the levels group manipulation and lying goes to if people want to embarrass or get rid of someone.  You don't have to put your hands on anyone to get buried, you just have to have been seen in the position to.  From there the others words can take over.

I'll provide an example that led to the end of this career.  I was friendly at work with a group of female co-workers in their 20s, but didn't do the outside social stuff with them because I find drunks annoying. We had this new male hire and as time passed a workplace crush involving him and one of the women developed.  In short time he cooled to it and she got embarrassed.  The group of them conspired this story he touched her in a residents room and they tried to drag me in on it saying I confronted him about it and he admitted doing it to me and how sorry he was blahblah. When it was my turn with HR I told her the truth that it was a made up story.  I explained how their social relationship broke down and the group just wanted him fired so she could deal with being rejected.  Needless to say HR brought up my story telling accusation with the group and the group put 2 and 2 together. Next story they tried to put around is one guy standing up for another guy accused of sexual assault, but thankfully the older women we worked with stepped up to squash that.

 

My now wife continued to work in the place for five years after and nothing had changed.  And I will say, it's not just done against males.

 


Edited by Nathan, 01 June 2023 - 13:22.


#62 Primo

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 13:00

The article itself leaves more questions than answers but I will say this, IF Jack did inappropriately touch the person in question then he should know better and can’t complain about the repercussions(losing his job), however if it’s a case of witnesses seeing some form of touch and interpreting it as inappropriate then that’s a different matter.

As other’s have mentioned already in this thread with the current cancel culture climate we live in, facts have to be properly established before we pass sweeping judgement, let’s see if more information comes to light.

What questions does it leave? You want to know what he touched, how har he squeezed? Anyways, I always laugh, silently, when someone uses "cancel culture" as if it was something bad. They never seem to consider what is actually being "cancelled". 



#63 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 13:09

What questions does it leave? You want to know what he touched, how har he squeezed? Anyways, I always laugh, silently, when someone uses "cancel culture" as if it was something bad. They never seem to consider what is actually being "cancelled".


No, I’m saying in the sense that if he had a relationship with the person in question and let’s say he touched her buttocks or any body part but he/she had given consent beforehand the witnesses could see it as someone being exploited or being vulnerable, that’s all I was saying.

Cancel culture usually involves silencing the other party/accused, doesn’t allow for that person to give their perspective or facts so there can be a clear and fair trial/judgement. Like I said if he’s already been deemed as having inappropriately touched the person in question and the person has also cone forward to say so then he deserves what he got. Anyway, people are entitled to their own opinion, I’m just saying that nowadays it’s easy to tarnish someone’s name in an instant even if they end up being innocent later on.

#64 Primo

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 13:15

Cancel culture usually involves silencing the other party/accused, doesn’t allow for that person to give their perspective or facts so there can be a clear and fair trial/judgement. 

So they get their right to free speech revoked? And they get no chance to defend themselves in a court or during an investigation? That's bad!



#65 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 13:17

What questions does it leave? You want to know what he touched, how har he squeezed? Anyways, I always laugh, silently, when someone uses "cancel culture" as if it was something bad. They never seem to consider what is actually being "cancelled".

No, I’m saying in the sense that if he had a relationship with the person in question and let’s say he touched her/his buttocks or any body part but he/she had given consent beforehand the witnesses could see it as someone being exploited or being vulnerable, that’s all I was saying.

Cancel culture usually involves silencing the other party/accused, doesn’t allow for that person to give their perspective or facts so there can be a clear and fair trial/judgement. Like I said if he’s already been deemed as having inappropriately touched the person in question and the person has also come forward to say so then he deserves what he got. Anyway, people are entitled to their own opinion, I’m just saying that nowadays it’s easy to tarnish someone’s name in an instant even if they end up being innocent later on.

Edited by STRFerrari4Ever, 01 June 2023 - 13:19.


#66 Risil

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 13:17

Full discussion of what cancel culture is/isn't should take place in the Paddock Club, not here.

#67 taran

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 13:31

Why should he have had to be taught not to hit women's bottoms? Why should he have got away with it? He shouldn't have to be told that is inappropriate at work! It doesn't take much intelligence to know it's inappropriate any time!

 

 

You open yourself up to nothing if you keep your hands to yourself. This kind of thinking is so gross.

 

 

Here come his buddy boys! I can't wait to hear all the smears on the women involved.  :rolleyes:

 

 

But which men? And how am I, as a woman, supposed to know? I can't read minds. Creeps, rapists and sexual abusers don't have such character traits marked on their forehead. How many reactions to "XYZ assaulted me/raped me/was creepy to me" start with "Oh, but he seems like such a nice guy!"

 

 

A third party firm already investigated. Careful sitting on that fence, you'll get splinters up your butt.

 

 

Not touching a colleague's bottom seems obvious. But we live in a world where a woman can agree to sleep with a man, regret in the next day and then claim rape so context is everything. We have famous stars (including Keanu Reeves) refusing to touch women so there can be no 'misunderstandings'.

This guy was apparently in a relationship with one of the women. How do we know he didn't do something he habitually did and was deemed acceptable until it wasn't because she changed her mind, maybe without telling him?

 

Most of these cases are not matters of outright rape or assault or even clear creeping on women but gestures that are not appreciated by the receiver. Which makes them still cringe worthy and deserving of a 'don't do it again' talk but not worthy of sacking the person over IMO. I have heard co-workers gossip in ways that are just as harmful or hurtful as touching a bottom. Guess how many of them only get a slap on the wrist if even that....

 

And dismissing anyone speaking up for this guy as his buddy boy and not worthy of consideration...Disgusting!

Maybe he actually knows what was going on? He certainly seems to indicate there is more to the story in his tweet.

 

Your ignorance of corporate shenanigans speaks clearly when you wave the third party investigation around as some kind of smoking gun. These people are only called in to deflect blame and absolve the upper management. They are given their marching orders and will then produce the required response, just like outside consultants are hired to give the management the excuse they need to do what they already decided to do...

 

I will refer to the Dutch junior Minister of Education Wiersma who by all accounts is a flaming asshole who likes to belittle subordinates and cannot control his anger when things don't go his way. Civil servants filed complaints but he was too valuable (apparently) for his party to drop so he was counseled, did a lot of inner searching, is working on bettering himself and because he has finally recognized his flaws and is willing to talk to his victims, he can stay in his job. After he was somewhat exonerated by a third party investigation that found that, while certain incidents certainly took place, they were not sufficiently severe to lead to his immediate sacking. The investigation was not made public due to privacy requirements and the Ministry refuses to discuss it further...... 

 

We don't know if this commentator is indeed guilty or not. We don't know if upper management just want the issue to go away and used an 'independent' investigation as a smoke screen. We don't know if he is admitting guilt because he is indeed guilty or if he is hoping a quick confession and promise to work on himself will save his career (doing a Hugh Grant I believe its called). We just don't know. So please spare us the sweeping condemnations.



#68 Otaku

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 13:48

You open yourself up to nothing if you keep your hands to yourself. This kind of thinking is so gross.

 

Yeah... in La La Land maybe...



#69 Autodromo

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 13:54

Amazingly, I have worked for more than 40 years with men and women and have never felt the urge to slap any of my co-workers on the bottom, have given and received hugs (basically pretend she is your granny) without being accused of inappropriately touching, have never been told or intimidated that I have been inappropriately staring at a woman, and most of my good friends at work and out of work are women who trust me.  I did that all without getting fired or having to be told not to slap the bottom of my co-workers, or that I shouldn't wrap my arms around someone for a birthday hug.  Am I amazing or what??  I am not tall, dark, handsome or rich but women are comfortable around me because I make no physical demands or expectations.  They do not have to be on the defensive.

 

So who knows what Jack did, but clearly he did not deny it.  I do not understand why so many want to minimize it.  If you are a man, imagine having a large man wanting to pull you close on a hug, or slapping your bottom, or sitting with his arm draped over your shoulder.  Would that make you uncomfortable?  It would me.


Edited by Autodromo, 01 June 2023 - 13:59.


#70 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 14:40

He comes across as a jokey personality - it’s not useful to speculate, but maybe he’s slapped someone’s arse or done something silly without thinking

Or maybe he’s a massive sex pest. I’d hope not.

Especially post-schofield, production companies are going to be making sure their ‘talent’ isn’t putting the company in a precarious position.

It’s good that everyone has to play by the same rules - although being in the public eye these things are career enders rather than something where you get fired or ‘agree to leave’ and then get a job quietly some place else and lick your wounds.

So for those in the public eye the rules should if anything carry more weight.

#71 cbo

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 15:09

As we don’t know exactly what happened in the first place, I don’t think it’s reasonable to be able to say whether the reaction from Formula E was over the top or not.


Stop making sense. To form an opinion, all you need is prejudice, bias and stuff you found on the interweb. Facts or the lack thereof is immaterial.

😉

#72 Myrvold

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 15:13

Especially post-schofield, production companies are going to be making sure their ‘talent’ isn’t putting the company in a precarious position.

 

This even made the news in Norway due to the viral sensation they became on that tv-show. However, things are written just as vague in that situation as this. At least what I've read, so is this just people forming their opinion as "truths", or what's the deal?


Edited by Myrvold, 01 June 2023 - 15:13.


#73 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 15:31

This even made the news in Norway due to the viral sensation they became on that tv-show. However, things are written just as vague in that situation as this. At least what I've read, so is this just people forming their opinion as "truths", or what's the deal?


The schofield one is being frames as he lied about having an affair with a young bloke who worked there. Bit murky though as it appears schofield got him the job and met him when he was a child. Nothing illegal been levelled at Schofield, but the internet is full of ‘evidence’ that puts him in a compromising position.

So he was fired for dishonesty rather than anything criminal. Whether or not that’s the end of the story….. to be confirmed!

#74 pdac

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 15:34

This even made the news in Norway due to the viral sensation they became on that tv-show. However, things are written just as vague in that situation as this. At least what I've read, so is this just people forming their opinion as "truths", or what's the deal?

 

The situation with that one is not what happened by, rather, did the TV company investigated concerns properly when they were raised earlier.



#75 azza200

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 17:44

Always found his voice irritating so now that he has gone i may watch some coverage of FE now  



#76 Ben1445

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 17:56

Always found his voice irritating so now that he has gone i may watch some coverage of FE now

Are you alright with Ben Edwards?

#77 messy

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 18:00

Yeesh, never know where to go with this kind of thing. At least he’s acknowledged that he made a mistake. Must be pretty serious for them to fire him after the investigation, gotta trust that the right decision has been made. Everything else is just speculation on stuff we don’t know. Much as I agree that everyone has made mistakes in their life this sounds like it was probably fairly serious, and recent.

#78 Arska

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 18:41

Full discussion of what cancel culture is/isn't should take place in the Paddock Club, not here.

 

I feel all of this thread belongs there as well, not here.



#79 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 18:45

Always found his voice irritating so now that he has gone i may watch some coverage of FE now


I genuinely found it hard to differentiate between him and Palmer

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#80 azza200

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 20:29

Are you alright with Ben Edwards?

 

yeah never minded Ben Edwards commentary 



#81 MKSixer

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 21:21

 

You open yourself up to nothing if you keep your hands to yourself. This kind of thinking is so gross.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's real.  As quiet as it's kept, there are false accusations made all the time.  I've been on HR councils that have terminated women for making them in my former industry.



#82 Autodromo

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Posted 01 June 2023 - 21:24

It's real.  As quiet as it's kept, there are false accusations made all the time.  I've been on HR councils that have terminated women for making them in my former industry.

Sure; there are women who falsely accuse men for whatever reason, but that is dwarfed by the actual number of real incidents of sexual harassment in some shape or form.  I know a number of women who have encountered that behavior, and no zero men who have been falsely accused (yes, that is one personal data point, but it is pretty well established overall).



#83 catent

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Posted 02 June 2023 - 07:11

It's real. As quiet as it's kept, there are false accusations made all the time. I've been on HR councils that have terminated women for making them in my former industry.

I think it’s a tad ironic to be saying “as quiet as it’s kept” re: claims of false accusations, in a thread filled with people suggesting it’s not uncommon for women to manipulate/lie and fabricate/embellish accusations against men. There is, in fact, a loud crowd who default to such a perspective anytime claims of sexual impropriety occur. I don’t think it’s a particularly quiet crowd.

Edited by catent, 02 June 2023 - 07:19.


#84 catent

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Posted 02 June 2023 - 07:19

I’ll also add that suggesting the phenomenon of false accusations, or embellishing claims, or rumor mongering / playing politics, is something unique to women, is legitimately sexist in a very obvious way.

False accusations and embellishing claims are a fundamental form of dishonesty. All types of humans, of all sexes/genders/races, can (and unfortunately are) dishonest, and lie/embellish; no particular category of human has a monopoly on that. Men lie and manipulate and politick all the time; so do women, but it is not a phenomenon unique to them as some posts in this thread seem to be implying.

Edited by catent, 02 June 2023 - 07:22.


#85 Ben1445

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Posted 02 June 2023 - 07:26

yeah never minded Ben Edwards commentary 

Fair, I also like him. He'll be replacing Jack for FE commentary for the remainder of the season it seems. 


Edited by Ben1445, 02 June 2023 - 10:03.


#86 Risil

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Posted 02 June 2023 - 09:26

It's real. As quiet as it's kept, there are false accusations made all the time. I've been on HR councils that have terminated women for making them in my former industry.


Sure but it's not relevant here as far as I can see. Nicholls is not disputing the things he's been punished for doing.

Nicholls' former colleague in the FE press pack Sam Smith has put something on Twitter warning people not to jump to conclusions about what precisely Nicholls did, but that's not the same thing. Uninformed speculation from bystanders (=us?) isn't lying.

#87 CSF

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Posted 02 June 2023 - 09:36

 

Sure but it's not relevant here as far as I can see. Nicholls is not disputing the things he's been punished for doing. 
 
Nicholls' former colleague in the FE press pack Sam Smith has put something on Twitter warning people not to jump to conclusions about what precisely Nicholls did, but that's not the same thing.

 

 

Part of me wonders if that tweet is linked to what the times article says about relationships within the team being against his contract. 



#88 Sam1

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Posted 02 June 2023 - 10:02

Men never ceases to amaze me how stupid can one be



#89 Risil

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Posted 02 June 2023 - 10:02

Posts removed. Please stick to the topic. Be careful with generalizations about the issues raised by Nicholls' firing, please.

#90 potmotr

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Posted 02 June 2023 - 10:50

The Race's resident Formula E journalist Sam Smith has posted this on Twitter:

sniffermedia @sniffermedia · 16m
There’s a great book by @jonronson called ‘So, You’ve Been Publicly Shamed.’ You should read it. Perspective is everything. And if you are one of those people who chucks forth opinion and admonishment without knowing all the facts, well the shame is very much on you.

 

I pass no judgment in it, just seems to be related 

 

'So you've been publicly shamed' is a great book btw.



#91 Cornholio

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Posted 02 June 2023 - 19:22

Always found his voice irritating so now that he has gone i may watch some coverage of FE now  

 

Yeah I honestly couldn't stand him as a commentator. That aside, given the (deliberate?) vagueness of the info coming out - 3 incidents? 1 incident with 3 witnesses? etc. - I don't really feel comfortable branding him either a sex pest or an innocent man thrown under the bus, or anything in between for that matter.

 

That said, if the info about workplace relationship and it being against the contract he willingly signed is true, then he really has no grounds for complaint, no more than any of us would if we violated our terms of employment and lost or job as a result.


Edited by Cornholio, 02 June 2023 - 19:22.


#92 JimmyClark

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Posted 02 June 2023 - 20:19

'So you've been publicly shamed' is a great book btw.


Jon Ronson's books are great, really recommend all of them (the ones I've read anyway).

#93 southernstars

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Posted 03 June 2023 - 00:29

And they say women are too emotional to be trusted in positions of power...



#94 krapmeister

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Posted 03 June 2023 - 03:35

Think this thread discussion would seriously be better served in the Paddock Club...

#95 SophieB

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Posted 03 June 2023 - 06:15

Oh what the eff is all this crap. 
 

e. Posts removed and thread closed because the board can’t discuss stuff like this without screaming at each other.