46 replies to this topic

[uzsjgb]

I don't quite understand the penalty for Tsunoda. Was it because he didn't hit Zhou?

[Cadence]

Tsunoda didn't deserve that penalty.

Worst stewards call in years.

Tsunoda was robbed. I hope the team challenges the decision.

[ANF]

Tsunoda didn't leave any space though, did he? Zhou seemed to ahead at the apex.

[Laster]

Tsunoda didn't leave any space though, did he? Zhou seemed to ahead at the apex.

Certainly looked like he left space, there was over a cars width, there was even a foot of space between Zhou and Tsunoda before Zhou aborted and jumped over the run off. Tsunoda didn’t run up to the white line, he didn’t crowd him off, Zhou went off of his own volition.

[Whatisvalis]

Tsunoda didn't leave any space though, did he? Zhou seemed to ahead at the apex.

 

I thought Zhou was not really alongside and bailed very early, but would like to see some onboards.

[ANF]

Certainly looked like he left space, there was over a cars width, there was even a foot of space between Zhou and Tsunoda before Zhou aborted and jumped over the run off. Tsunoda didn’t run up to the white line, he didn’t crowd him off, Zhou went off of his own volition.

I guess I will have to look at it again, as usual!

[ANF]

I guess I will have to look at it again, as usual!

I still think Tsunoda's penalty was correct. Some quick and dirty screenshots:

Sure, at this point there was still one car width between Tsunoda and the white line:



But this is less than one car width:



This is even less than less than one car width:



This is most certainly not one car width:



And this is Tsunoda on the apex kerb:

 

Zhou did well to avoid contact.

Edited by ANF, 04 June 2023 - 16:00.

[Gareth]

I still think Tsunoda's penalty was correct. Some quick and dirty screenshots:

Sure, at this point there was still one car width between Tsunoda and the white line:



But this is less than one car width:



This is even less than less than one car width:



This is most certainly not one car width:



And this is Tsunoda on the apex kerb:



Zhou did well to avoid contact.

Agree with this. Also worth noting that the whole bollard rule really incentivizes bailing early, too.

[SophieB]

Tsunoda is not happy.

 

 

Asked by Autosport for his reaction, Tsunoda said: “It was a ridiculous penalty and it feels really unfair.”

Recalling his version of events, Tsunoda reckoned Zhou had “pretended” to run out of room and that there was “definitely” space for the Alfa Romeo to remain on track.

He said: "When I saw [Zhou coming], I left the room and I feel like he just gave up in the early stages.

“He went outside and pretended like he got forced out, but he didn't. Definitely, there was still space outside.

“Obviously I gave him pressure but there's still space, so I don't understand why it was a penalty. It feels really unfair, really harsh.”

 

https://www.autospor...fence/10478696/

[TomNokoe]

I think 5s was harsh, maybe black/white flag instead.

[GentlemanDriver091]

Have to agree with Tsunoda on this one: ‘Zhou pretended like he got forced out‘.

Ridiculous penalty where they let Russell get away twice this weekend.

[Gareth]

I think Zhou knows Tsunoda is heading to the edge of the track (which is exactly what he did do) and bails early because he wants the best line to the bollard.

I think if Tsunoda had taken a trajectory that would have left a car’s width, Zhou wouldn’t have bailed. He was ahead and would have been on the inside for the next corner.

I thought the penalty was the right call.

[RacingFan10]

Penalty may seem a bit harsh but its correct I think. He forced Zhou off and was not ahead

[Autodromo]

I didn't see Tsunoda's onboard but Martin suggested that Tsunoda was essentially trying to stay right but understeering.  Anyone look at his onboards yet?  Seems a bit harsh seeing as Zhou did bail out while there was still room, and it is not like there is a wall there.

[jcbc3]

Didn't Tsunoda follow the exact same line Max did against Sainz at the start. Difference being that Sainz aborted the attempt earlier than Zhou?

[ANF]

Tsunoda is not happy.
 
"I left the room"
 
https://www.autospor...fence/10478696/

He left plenty of room here, right...



Onboard GIF: https://i.ibb.co/47w...sunodaspace.gif

[Gareth]

Didn't Tsunoda follow the exact same line Max did against Sainz at the start. Difference being that Sainz aborted the attempt earlier than Zhou?

Same line but Sainz was nose behind, vs Zhou who was nose ahead, iirc.

[RacingFan10]

Didn't Tsunoda follow the exact same line Max did against Sainz at the start. Difference being that Sainz aborted the attempt earlier than Zhou?

 

One big difference is that the RB+Max carried a ridiculous amount of speed in the corner compared to the Ferrari, and that made him come ahead without much trouble, while Sainz had to yield.

Zhou and Tsunoda were kinda even in car position and speed

Edited by RacingFan10, 04 June 2023 - 18:57.

[SophieB]

He left plenty of room here, right...



Onboard GIF: https://i.ibb.co/47w...sunodaspace.gif

 

It's beside the point I know but that gif is an instant travel sickness generator.

[Ali623]

Zhou was definitely entitled to room and Tsunoda didn't leave it, the penalty was fair in my opinion

[Victor]

Absurd penalty. Zhou was behind, Tsunoda was allowd to choose his line. The stewards incompetence destroyed a decent race by Tsunoda.

[Gareth]

Zhou was behind?

[tourister46a]

The new rules of engagement since 2022 state that Tsunoda has to leave room if Zhou is ahead at the apex. Zhou did bail early but Tsunoda's trajectory took him right on to the kerb, so as much as I love Yuki, the penalty was fair imo.

 

Same reason why Max was able to push Sainz out at L1 T1. Max made sure to reach the apex slightly earlier.

[Autodromo]

The new rules of engagement since 2022 state that Tsunoda has to leave room if Zhou is ahead at the apex. Zhou did bail early but Tsunoda's trajectory took him right on to the kerb, so as much as I love Yuki, the penalty was fair imo.

 

Same reason why Max was able to push Sainz out at L1 T1. Max made sure to reach the apex slightly earlier.

Looking at Max's onboard, they looked about dead even at the apex.

[tourister46a]

Looking at Max's onboard, they looked about dead even at the apex.

 

Yeah, but it's hard to argue from that image Sainz was ahead

[Autodromo]

 

Yeah, but it's hard to argue from that image Sainz was ahead

And I now forget what that means in terms of requirements for Max at track out, but it seems he would have to leave room and did not.  With Yuki and Zhou it is somewhat tough to call because, like with Max and Sainz, Zhou ducked out before Max/Yuki pushed towards the edge of the track.  

[tourister46a]

And I now forget what that means in terms of requirements for Max at track out, but it seems he would have to leave room and did not.  With Yuki and Zhou it is somewhat tough to call because, like with Max and Sainz, Zhou ducked out before Max/Yuki pushed towards the edge of the track.  

https://www.fia.com/..._guidelines.pdf

 

 

2. Guidelines for overtaking on the outside of a corner:

“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner.

The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track.”

 

Verstappen just pushes them off the track if the guy on the outside is not ahead at apex.

[sofarapartguy]

Zhou is a crybaby. Yuki did nothing wrong there. Change the gravel on the outside (Australia alike) and problem solved. 

 

But all if this is a part of bigger problem - stewards in F1. Decision would be completely different had it been anyone from top6 drivers instead of Tsunoda. 

[Autodromo]

https://www.fia.com/..._guidelines.pdf

 

 

Verstappen just pushes them off the track if the guy on the outside is not ahead at apex.

That was my point; if Sainz would have hung in there then Max could have been penalized as much as Tsunoda (or they would have collided).  Both Zhou and Sainz bailed, probably smartly, but it is tough to argue that one is penalized and other is not.  Sainz is certainly substantially alongside at the apex and probably could have remained there if he didn't back off.  Risky for Max but he got away with it.

[SenorSjon]

If there was a brick wall, Zhou would have never attempted that overtake. This was a very early bail out and a very unfair penalty.

Edited by SenorSjon, 04 June 2023 - 19:54.

[KWSN - DSM]

Stewards not covering themselves in glory this weekend, while making Steiner's criticism more and more correct.

 

I see Tsunoda as driver of the race, regardless of the penalty, this is an Alpha Tauri which have been a solid and on merit top 10 running car all weekend.

 

Travesty.

[flingsofdeon]

Stewards not covering themselves in glory this weekend, while making Steiner's criticism more and more correct.

I see Tsunoda as driver of the race, regardless of the penalty, this is an Alpha Tauri which have been a solid and on merit top 10 running car all weekend.

Travesty.

He was superb, I totally agree. He’s had an excellent season given the equipment

[Seanspeed]

He left plenty of room here, right...



Onboard GIF: https://i.ibb.co/47w...sunodaspace.gif

The issue here isn't that Tsunoda was penalized for this blatantly illegal move, it's that they let others get away with this kind of driving so often that people somehow think it's normal or acceptable.  Even DC and whatnot were trying to act like driving people off the road is 'ok' so long as the car is on your outside.  It's crazy and it hurts the racing.  It robs us of what could have been an exciting battle along with just being a plainly unfair and dangerous attempt at preventing somebody from overtaking you.  

 

It's insane that people think it's ok.  

 

 

Edited by Seanspeed, 04 June 2023 - 20:14.

[Seanspeed]

If there was a brick wall, Zhou would have never attempted that overtake.

If stewards actually enforced the notion that drivers ALWAYS deserve space if they're fully alongside another car, they would actually go for moves like this. 

 

I could equally claim that nobody would be defending Tsunoda if he smashed a car on his outside into a wall instead of just off-track.  

Edited by Seanspeed, 04 June 2023 - 20:15.

[Deeq]

It was a fair penalty..the confusion comes from FiAs incosistens, i.e if they didnt hand a penalty i would not have been surprised.
The only surprise... is one that gets handed to Russell.

[Ben24]

Worst stewards call in years.

Tsunoda was robbed. I hope the team challenges the decision.

Not even close. It was a slightly harsh decision but not totally undeserved. Only have to go back to Hulkenberg's penalty last race to find a decision infinitely worse. Can probably list 20+ worse decisions in the last few years tbh.

 

The real problem is consistency though. There are plenty of occasions where drivers get off with making the exact same defensive move. Also seems strange to make such a marginal call after letting drivers get away with much more blatant infringements like Russell on his first lap today where he gained a massive advantage by cutting the chicane. And if they're going to suddenly be harsh on driving standards, I'd personally much rather they crack down on moves like Ocon's defence of Alonso. That kind of move is much more dangerous than any other infringements today and does nothing to help the racing spectacle

[FNG]

Preposterous penalty. Worst I have seen.

[Gravelngrass]

That type of maneuver by Tsunoda only works un penalized if done by Hamilton, Alonso, Verstappen, et.al. If you’re just driver X you’re going to get penalized.

[SenorSjon]

If stewards actually enforced the notion that drivers ALWAYS deserve space if they're fully alongside another car, they would actually go for moves like this. 

 

I could equally claim that nobody would be defending Tsunoda if he smashed a car on his outside into a wall instead of just off-track.  

 

Problem is, Tsunoda could drift the car outwards after Zhou had bailed and now he is getting a penalty for not leaving space... For what?

[Gareth]

Problem is, Tsunoda could drift the car outwards after Zhou had bailed and now he is getting a penalty for not leaving space... For what?

You’ve seen the gif in the thread and think Tsunoda was going to leave a car’s width outside of him?

Ok

[SenorSjon]

We will never know.

[Laster]

You’ve seen the gif in the thread and think Tsunoda was going to leave a car’s width outside of him?

Ok

 

You know what that gif doesn't reveal? Tsunoda's use of throttle. If he is completely off the throttle coming out of T1 and the car is just going out wide because of the momentum he took into the corner then you have a point, he can not affect hit outward trajectory. However if he is on the throttle coming out of T1 then the car is drifting out because of that, in which case Tsunoda was in control and could have left Zhou space had Zhou hung on in there rather than diving off the road long before running out of any room. While I haven't been able to find a video to listen to Tsunoda's onboard, I have listened to other onboards and they get on the throttle the moment they hit the apex of T1, which suggests he could have given the room if he needed to. Zhou should have hung it out.

[Gareth]

I think it’s super obvious that car was heading to the outset kerb from the moment they hit the apex, and the idea Tsunoda was going to suddenly massively tighten his line (conveniently just after the point Zhou bailed) is for the birds. I suspect that’s how the stewards saw it too. The idea you’ve got to force the contact to get the foul doesn’t sound a good one to me for Motorsport.

[Beri]

He left plenty of room here, right...



Onboard GIF: https://i.ibb.co/47w...sunodaspace.gif

Seeing this, I can not do anything else than saying that Yuki was wrong here. He would have never left that cars width without forcing Zhou off the track and over the inside kerbs with the trajectory the car was going. Zhou avoided a get together there by bailing out.
Right call by the stewards.

Edited by Beri, 05 June 2023 - 09:25.

[ANF]

The onboard videos: https://youtu.be/azr8gsLeiz0?t=193

[catent]

Yuki could have potentially left a bit more room. Zhou bailed quite early. There was absolutely room for both of them to get through with some patience from one or both drivers.

 

I lean towards this being an unfair penalty for Yuki.

[Primo]

Yuki could have potentially left a bit more room. Zhou bailed quite early. There was absolutely room for both of them to get through with some patience from one or both drivers.

 

I lean towards this being an unfair penalty for Yuki.

Zhou was way ahead before turn in, Yuki brakes later and carries speed that does not allow him to leave any room for Zhou. Zhou "bailed" because he saw that and of the three alternatives 1. Braking hard, 2. Crashing, 3. Bailing, he found "bailing" was the better alternative.

Edited by Primo, 07 June 2023 - 02:33.