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Djelmo Land Speed Record Car - Sunbeam in Disguise?


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#1 Steve L

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Posted 04 June 2023 - 21:25

This very interesting car was funded and built by an Egyptian prince based in Paris in the mid 1920s.

By the time it was declared as being ready for an attempt, the record had been pushed up and out of its reach to 203mph by Segrave and the Sunbeam 1000hp at Daytona.

Giulio Foresti drove Djelmo on Pendine Sands late in 1927 to try and salvage something for all the effort by attempting the British LSR. He crashed but survived.

I have read that the engine of Djelmo, or perhaps even the entire car, was built to a Sunbeam design. Has anyone ever seen any hard evidence of this please?

Edited by Steve L, 04 June 2023 - 21:42.


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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 June 2023 - 21:56

Some possible leads to follow here, mainly in the comments, one of which, quoting an article in The Automobile, suggests that the engine was built by Janvier Sabin, probably to a design by Moglia - and possibly in conjunction with Bertarione, who is also credited with the chassis design alongside Coatalen.

 

https://oldmachinepr...eed-record-car/



#3 Roger Clark

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Posted 06 June 2023 - 09:48

Doug Nye described the Djelmo in Motor Racing Mavericks but only says that there is a story that the design was purchased from Sunbeam.

There is an article on the car by Boddy in Motor Sport June 1985. He says that Cyril Posthumus endorsed the story but doesn't offer a direct opinion but does say: "I leave it to STD historians as to how likely this seems, comparing the design to those of contemporary Sunbeam racing engines." I took this to mean that he was doubtful.

​I couldn't find any mention of the Djelmo in Anthony Heal's Sunbeam Racing Cars.

Everybody seems agreed that Edmond Moglia led the design, the name, of course, being a combination of his and Prince Djelallelin's names, but Moglia had worked at STD.

#4 Roger Clark

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Posted 06 June 2023 - 10:13

There is also an article about the Djelmo by David Venables in the VSCC Bulletin Spring 2004.  He doesn't mention the Sunbeam story.



#5 Roger Clark

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Posted 06 June 2023 - 10:46

In 1966, Ronald Barker interviewed W F Bradley.  Summaries of the interviews were published in The Automobile during 1999; the May edition concerned Giulio Foresti, driver of the Djelmo.  Bradley was very dismissive of Foresti, sayingg that he was on a retainer from Prince Djelaleddin.  The contract would finish when the record was broken, so Foresti had no interest in actually attempting it.

 

Bradley claimed that he was responsible for introducing Djelaleddin to Moglia when the Prince asked him to put him in contact with somebody who could design a car.  There is no mention of the Sunbeam story.

 

I have seen the Prince's name written as Djelallelin, Djelaleddin and Djelalledin.


Edited by Roger Clark, 06 June 2023 - 10:46.


#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 June 2023 - 20:48

Robert Dick may know more of course, but I've found a post by the late Jean-Maurice Gigleux on Autodiva, in which he describes Djelmo as 'conceived by Moglia'. I also turned up this there, which is from issue 174 of the French magazine l'Automobile, October 1960, apparently written by Serge Pozzoli. Again crediting Moglia, although with no specifics on the engine. And claiming incorrectly that Foresti was killed at Pendine ...

l-automobile-174-074.jpg



#7 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 June 2023 - 21:16

These, which I found on Gallica, may also be of interest. From La Pratique automobile vulgarisée, January 1927: no mention of any Sunbeam connection, but it does seem to credit the engine to Moglia.

 

https://gallica.bnf....sti Moglia.zoom

 

The cutaway of Djelmo appears to be credited to The Autocar.

 

Report from Le Sport universel illustré, December 1927:

 

https://gallica.bnf....lia?rk=622320;4

 

Le Journal, August 24th 1927, says Djelmo was 'établie sur les plans de l'ingénieur Moglia'.



#8 Vitesse2

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Posted 07 June 2023 - 07:43

The Daily Telegraph seems to have taken a particular interest in Djelmo and Foresti. Although its reports of the two record attempt sessions are just bylined as 'from our special correspondent', I think the writer must have actually been part of his support team, as this report, from the November 28th 1927 issue even includes what is said to be a long direct quote from Foresti, describing the crash. An earlier article, dated August 31st 1927, claimed that 'Signor Foresti's car was built by him from the design of Signor Moglia, in Paris ...'

 

TGRH-1927-1128-0009.jpg



#9 Roger Clark

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Posted 07 June 2023 - 08:10

How many other LSR contenders had an engine designed solely for that purpose?



#10 robert dick

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Posted 07 June 2023 - 09:22

From an old, meanwhile disappeared 2003 website,

an article written by Robin Richardson, with technical details based on the Autocar description of 1927:

 

 


By 1922-23 when the DJELMO was first conceived, the first World War had accelerated aviation engine technology to a point that lessons learned there were already being applied to land speed racers, Eldridge had built himself a huge FIAT based special using the lengthened chassis of the Mephistopheles Brooklands Car and inserting a FIAT A12 aero-engine. Malcolm Campbell, himself a Brooklands regular, had persuaded Sunbeam to sell him the Manitou V 12 aero-engined record holder which Guinness had used to set the record at 133mph in 1922. By 1924 when Campbell finally got his hands on it, he took the record to 146mph then 150mph on the Sands at Pendine. The only threat to this approach at the time was the much more sophisticated 10.5 litre V 12 Delage that was essentially a scaled up Grand Prix design. It set the record at 143mph in July; a record that was short lived once Eldridge and his FIAT arrived 6 day later having initially been disqualified for lack of a reverse gear - a situation soon remedied.

Presumably as a response to the Delage, Sunbeam drew up plans for a challenger of their own, one which did not rely on the use on an aero-engine. For whatever reason, Coatalen and Bertarione went no further with this design and sold it instead to Paris based Egyptian Prince Djellalledin and an Italian engineer Edmond Moglia - hence the car named DJELMO was born........Given the specification, it could have been a success had it been produced quickly. Indeed, the similar Delage was still winning races years later at Brooklands and is a regular today at events such as the Goodwood Festival of Speed.

Djelmo's chassis was a simple affair comprising two dep side members with a pronounced sweep up at the rear to clear the back axle. It was very crab-tracked being only 95cm at the rear compared to 1m 48cm at the front. Total weight was predicted to be 910kilos of which 350kilos was contributed by its straight eight cylinder engine. This was cast along with its gearbox as a complete unit that incorporated six evenly spaced bearers that bolted directly to the chassis to provide stiffness. The steering box was fitted to the top of the gearbox that housed 2 forward and one reverse gear driving through a bevel drive to a rear axle with no differential.

Brakes were on the rear only & featured a novel pedal and level arrangement guarranteed to confuse anyone used to today's layout. The clutch pedal was on the right, brake pedal on left which ONLY operated the left rear wheel brake!, the hand brake only operated the right rear wheel brake!!. A bore of 107mm and stroke of 140mm gave capacity of 10litres & power of 350hp, quite enough to make cope with by its braking system. No fuel pump was required, this was gravity fed from a tank under its scuttle. With its tightly cloaked body, later additions of superchargers planned were equally novel. (Contemporary reports indicate more than one) would have fitted in the tail, driven from the rear of the propshaft, compressed charge delivered by piping past the driver. The Prince predicted speeds circa 160mph at a site in USA (Prob. Daytona) initial tests were on roads at Arpajon in France where Eldridge & Rene Thomas battled using FIAT & Delage.

Like Moglia, Guilio Foresti was Italian living away from home in a capital city, London & was the earliest but only 'planned' driver for the project, Foresti was high profile already in road racing, London based had raced at Brooklands albeit not mentioned in Bill Boddy's track history. An agent for sales /service of Itala cars Foresti's Brooklands workshop plus larger premises at Bryanston Sq. Nr. Edgeware Rd. & had important engineering skills along with race ability.

A major affect upon LSR history followed by GF introducing one Leopoldo Alphonso Villa to the Challenges which were to follow, Villa was at a loose end after unexpectedly not following into his family catering, born in London of Italian parents his uncle Ferdy was an early car driver who ran a restaurant frequented by Foresti & knowing of Leo's mechanical eagerness he persuaded Foresti to take Leo on as a general helper, Leo grasped this chance & history took its course. Machinery being delivered as chassis to be assembled on site at Foresti's Bryanston Sq. premises was becoming highly favoured so much that when Count Louis Zborowski wanted a follow up to his aero-engined original Chitty Chitty Bang Bang he called Foresti to use an Itala chassis & 250hp Hall Scott aero-engine, unfortunately weak links proved to be Itala's g/box & drive chain & after 4 months work its road test saw the propshaft cry enough after a few yards shooting the car skywards as Foresti ran over a departing clutch and flywheel. Zborowski took the remains back to his Higham Estate & Foresti went back to conventional Itala work.

By 1917, Villa reached conscription age & Foresti as well as keeping business going took charge of transports for Italian Flying Corps in UK. to make use of experience whilst with Foresti Villa became posted to a unit fitting engines to planes, gaining further knowledge to be later invaluable when he worked with probably the most famous all time speed record breaker, M Campbell.

WW1 Armistice came, Villa went back to work for Foresti, this time as racing mechanic, one of their first projects was to rebuild a 16 yrs old Austro Daimler (essentially a 110hp Mercedes ) into a Brooklands racer. Even though often outclassed by more modern machinery Foresti remained competitive even winning the odd races here and there when conditions & lady luck supplemented their fine preparation work. Villa thrived on this experience meeting all the big names of the day - Malcolm Campbell, Zborowski, Kaye Don, Barnato etc whilst proving he was as competent a racing mechanic as Foresti was a Driver.....

By 1921, Foresti had also taken on Isotta Fraschini dealership although the deal suddenly turned sour for no obvious reason.....Undeterred he disappeared to Monte Carlo, returning a few weeks later to tell Villa that he'd bought a Car Hire company in the South of France & intended to move there as soon as possible to handle repair maintenance & continue their racing.....1921 Targa Floria was he first step & a modified Itala which Foresti & Villa prepared in Itala's Turin factory pre shipping it to Sicily....In spite of dreadful conditions & many mishaps they did well & won their 3 litre class. Reputations enhanced even further, Foresti sold the Car Hire business & took Villa to Ballot who were planning an assault on the following year's Targa with their more modern & smaller capacity cars....Team mate Jules Goux came second overall with Foresti & Villa fourth, & second in the 2 litre class.

BY 1922 an explosion whilst engine testing had put Villa in Hospital for a while, but Foresti continued to race with an old friend from his home town of Bergamo before moving back to England for a while. Brooklands rival Malcolm Campbell, impressed by the speed of the the Ballot cars (GF was already their UK dealer) wanted to race them at Brooklands & also wanted Foresti's experience along with it. As a 'sweetener' Campbell bought Foresti's old Itala racer. Clearly Villa had also made an impression on Campbell who wrote to the Ballot factory offering him a job in UK.

He had plenty of time to think about things whilst they took turns at driving the Itala and Ballot to Campbell's house at Povey Cross. Foresti stayed for 5 to 6 weeks, acting as Campbell's racing mechanic & no doubt sizing up facilities at Campbell's disposal. Decision time! & Foresti made it clear to Villa that it was an opportunity he should not pass up, but also revealing that he'd made plans of his own to race a still secret record breaker for Prince Djellaledin.

For whatever reasons, the Djelmo that would have been such a threat in early 20's when first mooted became less and less likely to succeed with every day of the year of delay. Thus it was 1927 before the car was brought to Pendine for an attempt on the British LSR, the World, absolute LSR, had already been raised to 203mph by Henry Seagrave in the 1000hp Sunbeam. after fixing a spate of engine problems Foresti made a number of high speed passes before a treacherous patch of soft sand brought the attempt to an end & Italy was denied a Land Speed Record holder, 'not far from the point Parry Thomas's tragic mishap seemed to start from & strangely these two events never seemed to have been studied to have perhaps been linked.....Djelmo went tumbling at an estimated 150mph & Foresti was lucky to emerge with nothing more than a scraped scalp & damaged arm,DJELMO was in an altogether worse state to be shipped back to Paris, never again to be seen running in anger, never to join those listed on the plaque at the Beach Hotel.

Drawn records only exist of the ideas for a planned replacement for DJELMO a sleeker lower car featuring twin engines fore & aft with the driver seated low in the middle. Remains of DJELMO were reported to be behind a Paris garage just prior to WW2 being carted away as scrap by Gypsies. Foresti continued racing on the continent, having missed his opportunity to be the only Italian ever to hold the land speed record. He had however become the mentor to Leo Villa, who would go on to serve the Campbell family in all their record breaking endeavours, right up until Donald's tragic death at Coniston with the K7 Bluebird jet-boat. Leo Villa inevitably came to be called 'Pancho' by British media!.



#11 Vitesse2

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Posted 07 June 2023 - 09:27

How many other LSR contenders had an engine designed solely for that purpose?

None spring to mind, apart from Freddie Dixon's unbuilt Dart project. I did wonder about La Jamais Contente, but even that used proprietary Postel-Vinay electric motors! I'm no engineer, but from the look of it it just appears to be two 4-cylinder units mated together. 'End to end', as the photo caption puts it. Unlike other multi-engined devices of that era like the White Triplex.

 

So, if we assume they're modified stock blocks, who was building a 5-litre in-line four at about that time? Or might they be war surplus aero engines?



#12 Roger Clark

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Posted 07 June 2023 - 09:54

 

So, if we assume they're modified stock blocks, who was building a 5-litre in-line four at about that time? Or might they be war surplus aero engines?

I don’t know much about road car engines but it might not be difficult to enlarge a 1914 Grand Prix engine to 5-litres.   One of those was the Sunbeam but its dimensions (94x160) are very different from the Djelmo (107x140). 



#13 Steve L

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Posted 07 June 2023 - 11:39

Thanks to everyone for your contributions so far. All of this information is very interesting!

#14 Vitesse2

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Posted 07 June 2023 - 13:46

I don’t know much about road car engines but it might not be difficult to enlarge a 1914 Grand Prix engine to 5-litres.   One of those was the Sunbeam but its dimensions (94x160) are very different from the Djelmo (107x140). 

Thinking laterally, I wonder if Djelmo's engine was bored out from something smaller and fitted with new pistons? A 140mm stroke is 5.5 inches as near as dammit, whereas if the original was designed by someone working in cubic inches 107mm is a not particularly likely 4.2126 inches, which doesn't convert exactly to either eighths or sixteenths of an inch.

 

The Sunbeam engine you quoted works out at three and three-eighths by six and five-eighths inches per cylinder.



#15 robert dick

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Posted 07 June 2023 - 13:51

As far as I know, there is no hard evidence that the Djelmo was built to a Sunbeam design.
But the engine certainly came from Sunbeam.

The 10-liter straight-eight engine of the Djelmo very much looked like a big brother of the 4.9-litre straight-six Sunbeam engine built for the American 300-cubic inch formula (valid between 1915 and 1919 - later, in 1922, the engine was used in the Coppa Florio Sunbeam).

The similarities even in detail are so striking that the two engines were certainly designed by the same engineer and assembled in the same workshop.
The 300-inch straight-six Sunbeam was designed and built during WWI.

The 10-litre straight-eight used in the Djelmo had its origins at the same time and on the same drawing board, maybe as aero-engine project which was rejected.

Edmond(o) Moglia switched from Fiat to Sunbeam-Talbot-Darracq after WWI so that he could not be responsible for these engines.
Moglia was responsible for the chassis, transmission, etc... of the Djelmo.
 



#16 Roger Clark

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Posted 07 June 2023 - 16:55

Thinking laterally, I wonder if Djelmo's engine was bored out from something smaller and fitted with new pistons? A 140mm stroke is 5.5 inches as near as dammit, whereas if the original was designed by someone working in cubic inches 107mm is a not particularly likely 4.2126 inches, which doesn't convert exactly to either eighths or sixteenths of an inch.

 

The Sunbeam engine you quoted works out at three and three-eighths by six and five-eighths inches per cylinder.

It's not good practice to express the result of an arithmetic operation with greater precision than the originals.  4.2inches is 107mm to the nearest mm.

 

I would never argue with Robert on these things but the 4.9-litre Sunbeam had a stroke of 157mm, much longer than the Djelmo.  The post-war 3-litre was 112mm.  Could there be a connection there?



#17 Charlieman

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Posted 07 June 2023 - 17:20

4.2inches is 107mm to the nearest mm.

How does that work on a machine? Pretty boring?



#18 Vitesse2

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Posted 07 June 2023 - 17:25

It's not good practice to express the result of an arithmetic operation with greater precision than the originals.  4.2inches is 107mm to the nearest mm.

Well, yes. But as engineers and designers working in Imperial measures would have measured in halves, quarters, eighths, sixteenths and perhaps even thirty-secondths of an inch, fifths of an inch don't seem to make much sense.
 



#19 robert dick

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Posted 08 June 2023 - 08:58

In 1916/-17, the Sunbeam aero-engine department produced straight-sixes, V8s, V12s and W18s, no straight-eight
(in detail, these engines considerably differ from the engine used in the Djelmo and the engine of the 300-inch formula):

straight-six (110 x 160 mm), straight-six "Dyak" (120 x 130 mm), straight-six "Annabelle" (122 x 160 mm);
V8 (95 x 125 mm), V8 "Arab" (120 x 130 mm);
V12 "Afridi" (92 x 135 mm), V12 (110 x 160 mm), V12 "Maori 4" (110 x 135 mm), V12 "Cossack" (110 x 160 mm);
W18 (110 x 160 mm).
 

 


Edited by robert dick, 08 June 2023 - 09:58.


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#20 robert dick

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Posted 08 June 2023 - 13:53

A possibility is that the 10-litre straight-eight used in the Djelmo was originally intended for a power boat of the Gold Cup class which in 1922 was limited to 625 cubic inches (107 x 140 mm = 4 1/4 x 5 1/2 inches = 624 cubic inches):
https://hydroplanehi...up_glitter.html

= = = =

Just for illustration:
Monaco powerboat meeting, April 1920, Despujols III powered by a Sunbeam V12 (122 x 160 mm):
https://gallica.bnf....4356/f1.highres

Coppa Florio, November 1922, the 300-inch/4.9-litre straight-six:
https://gallica.bnf....6945/f1.highres
https://gallica.bnf....6710/f1.highres
 



#21 10kDA

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Posted 10 June 2023 - 23:29

Well, yes. But as engineers and designers working in Imperial measures would have measured in halves, quarters, eighths, sixteenths and perhaps even thirty-secondths of an inch, fifths of an inch don't seem to make much sense.
 

 

Would they? The firearms industry was doing precision work using decimal inches in the 19th Century.
 



#22 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 June 2023 - 06:51

Would they? The firearms industry was doing precision work using decimal inches in the 19th Century.
 

As Robert's figures above seem to demonstrate, the motor industry in Britain - and the United States, come to that - appears to have preferred eighths etc, perhaps because many of the the earliest designers and engineers would been trained from texts and techniques inherited from steam railway practices, which pre-date the introduction of really accurate measurement? The modern micrometer wasn't really perfected until the latter half of the nineteeth century.



#23 Roger Clark

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Posted 11 June 2023 - 08:08

As Robert's figures above seem to demonstrate, the motor industry in Britain - and the United States, come to that - appears to have preferred eighths etc, perhaps because many of the the earliest designers and engineers would been trained from texts and techniques inherited from steam railway practices, which pre-date the introduction of really accurate measurement? The modern micrometer wasn't really perfected until the latter half of the nineteeth century.

Are you referring to the engine dimensions in post 19?  They don’t seem to convert neatly into imperial fractions.  

 

I wonder whether the Sunbeam of Coatalen would have used metric dimensions, even more so post-war after the arrival of Henry, later Bertarione and the formation of STD. 
 

many engines of the time had 160mm stroke. As well as several Sunbeam aero engines, 6 of the 13 manufacturers at the 1914 Grand Prix used that stroke and two more were within 4mm of it. Was there a reason for this?



#24 10kDA

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Posted 11 June 2023 - 13:18

As Robert's figures above seem to demonstrate, the motor industry in Britain - and the United States, come to that - appears to have preferred eighths etc, perhaps because many of the the earliest designers and engineers would been trained from texts and techniques inherited from steam railway practices, which pre-date the introduction of really accurate measurement? The modern micrometer wasn't really perfected until the latter half of the nineteeth century.

 

By the 1920s many of the lessons learned of the benefits of interchangeable component parts through developments in manufacturing for WWI mechanized equipment had been incorporated into efficient toolrooms/machining operations/design and engineering disciplines. If there was any connection at all with Sunbeam, I believe their standard engineering practices with aero engines would have been used. It would be interesting to see original procurement documentation for Sunbeam's WWI aero engines as to how displacement was spec'd. Anything on these engines I can find online that shows metric and decimal inch equivalent has the decimal precision down to hundredths - just two places. No fractional measurements that I can find.
 



#25 robert dick

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Posted 11 June 2023 - 14:13

Contemporary documentation:

Glenn D. Angle
Airplane Engine Encyclopedia
1921, Dayton, Ohio

available for download at
https://archive.org/...ineEncyclopedia

Sunbeam engines on pages 474 - 484.

btw:
Twin-cam four-valve V8 Peugeot designed by Ernest Henry on page 385.
 



#26 oliver heal

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Posted 11 June 2023 - 17:13

This very interesting car was funded and built by an Egyptian prince based in Paris in the mid 1920s.

By the time it was declared as being ready for an attempt, the record had been pushed up and out of its reach to 203mph by Segrave and the Sunbeam 1000hp at Daytona.

Giulio Foresti drove Djelmo on Pendine Sands late in 1927 to try and salvage something for all the effort by attempting the British LSR. He crashed but survived.

I have read that the engine of Djelmo, or perhaps even the entire car, was built to a Sunbeam design. Has anyone ever seen any hard evidence of this please?

 

When work started on building Djelmo in September 1923, Coatalen's design team had moved on  from that type of engine design. Sunbeam had just won the Grand Prix and Darracq were dominating the voiturette class and their 350 hp car was stiil breaking records. They did not need a 10-litre straight-8.

 

In 1920 Coatalen had set up a design office in Paris. When the creation of the STD Motors group went ahead later that year he would have acquired the services of Edmond Moglia who had joined Darracq in 1917 to help build Fiat-type aero-engines. It seems probable that Moglia worked with Coatalen and Stevens on the 1921 3-litre straight-8 Grand Prix cars that were built in Wolverhampton and Suresnes . The immediate parentage of Djelmo can be sought there even if it also has earlier antecedents in the effect of Ernest Henry's designs. It seems most likely that the Djelmo engine was developed in the Darracq works in Suresnes and not in Wolverhampton but I don't think there is any concrete evidence!



#27 10kDA

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Posted 11 June 2023 - 18:35

Contemporary documentation:

Glenn D. Angle
Airplane Engine Encyclopedia
1921, Dayton, Ohio

available for download at
https://archive.org/...ineEncyclopedia

Sunbeam engines on pages 474 - 484.

btw:
Twin-cam four-valve V8 Peugeot designed by Ernest Henry on page 385.
 

 

The data in that encyclopedia is formatted the same for every engine listed, since the intent is for it to be a reference document. I'd like to see the engineering documentation that was supplied to the government branch that released funding for purchasing the engines which was the final word that the government(s) were getting what they paid for as far as meeting specifications agreed to by both parties involved in the transaction. That kind of documentation typically refers to mfrs' drawing numbers etc which would indicate dimensions and material of components.
 



#28 robert dick

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Posted 13 June 2023 - 15:29

Stroke of 160 mm:

In 1913/-14/-15 a stroke of 160 mm resulted in a good balance between piston speed, crankshaft speed, and the potential/reliability of the valve springs and spark plugs.

Remark:
Practically all racing engines of this period were désaxé, the cylinder axis being offset in relation to the crankshaft centre line, usually by about 2 cm. As a consequence, the crankshaft diameter was not exactly equal to the stroke.
Désaxé article in the French magazine Omnia/1906:
https://gallica.bnf....6k9803885j/f128
https://gallica.bnf....6k9803885j/f129

 

= = = =

 

Engine/aero-engine descriptions published in The Automobile Engineer/London were full of details,
but as far as I know, not available for download.

The Liberty 12-Cylinder Aero Engine Handbook/September 1918

(with re-assembly details beginning at page 109) is available for download
https://archive.org/...12cylinde00grea



 



#29 robert dick

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Posted 13 June 2023 - 16:13

Djelmo/Moglia touring car project, rear engine, 180-degree V8, 5 litres,

dated 10 January 1931:

https://cnum.cnam.fr...6/16/70/726/0/0

No idea whether there was a connection to the Tatra 77.
 



#30 Vitesse2

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Posted 13 June 2023 - 16:40

Djelmo/Moglia touring car project, rear engine, 180-degree V8, 5 litres,

dated 10 January 1931:

https://cnum.cnam.fr...6/16/70/726/0/0

No idea whether there was a connection to the Tatra 77.
 

Admittedly other designers were thinking along similar lines at the time, but that's also strikingly similar in profile to the Crossley Burney Streamline - although that only had suicide doors at the front, not the rear - and which, like the Tatra, also appeared in 1934.



#31 Roger Clark

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Posted 14 June 2023 - 10:30

I believe that the original Burney prototypes appeared around 1930 but it, like the Tatra, was rear-engined.  The Moglia design was mid-engined.



#32 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 14 June 2023 - 20:11

Stroke of 160 mm:

In 1913/-14/-15 a stroke of 160 mm resulted in a good balance between piston speed, crankshaft speed, and the potential/reliability of the valve springs and spark plugs.

Remark:
Practically all racing engines of this period were désaxé, the cylinder axis being offset in relation to the crankshaft centre line, usually by about 2 cm. As a consequence, the crankshaft diameter was not exactly equal to the stroke.
 

 

Very interesting. A quick analysis shows that the position of the piston between 0o and 180o is exactly the 160mm difference that is claimed as the stroke. But the first little steps away from these values (depending on the direction of the "désaxé") will push the piston a bit further away. That will mean a slightly larger stroke in reality. I will try to calculate this in the weekend, but it might take some time. For exact values. I need the length of the piston rod, but an assumed value will probably also work.