70 replies to this topic

[Bliman]

I was watching the video about Newey

And this is something that I have wondered about for some time. To me, it seems like having access to Newey is like having some cheat code.

Now again we see how dominant Red Bull is. And to me, it seems when Mercedes dominated it was mostly because they had such an engine advantage.

Imo Newey is constantly making great cars.

Now that we are in an aerodynamics rule era it seems to me that we don't even see anyone that can challenge him.

I personally find it weird that we have so few real competitors on that front that can go toe to toe in this area.

Like for example in Monaco we saw the floors of Red Bull, Ferrari, and Mercedes and in comparison to Red Bull, they look very simple.

It seems to me that if you take Newey out of the equation the field would be much closer together. Is it that I haven't really followed this field or is there no one that can challenge Newey? It seems to me that he has been on the top for so long.

To me, it seems there is so little new blood out there or someone that can go toe to toe with him and personally I find that quite sad and weird.

How do other people see this? Am I missing something? To me Newey is playing chess while others are playing checkers in that department of aerodynamics.

He is being the number one for so long as far as I know and I wonder where are the new ones or those that can genuinely challenge him.

[Nathan]

I agree, and to add to it, how do so few of his proteges have similar success? Fallows may be the first.   Are we so busy thinking its aero genius when it happens to be management genius? I just don't get how the tricks don't spread.

 

The16 year old fan in me didn't think Alonso's off track excursion was so violent to warrant the attention given to the floor.  I thought there must some detail of obvious importance near the throat or floor edge. In this regard, I wonder if Fallows has an aero secret.

[George Costanza]

Adrian has been the absolute best designer since 1991-1992. There's no one close. Remember in the 1990's it was Schumacher vs Newey... The fact that Adrian could have won every single championship from 1992-2005 is just astonishing. And he certainly has done that in the early 2010's and now 2021-to current and he isn't done.

Only Rory Byrne can legitimately challenge him but he is far behind now...

The only drivers to beat Adrian of multiple championships: Michael Schumacher, Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton... Says it all really of how good Adrian is.

Edited by George Costanza, 06 June 2023 - 03:55.

[YamahaV10]

For Mercedes, it wasn't just the engines. It was also the chassis and more specifically the rear suspension. Newey spend a fair amount of years getting beat by that combination. Whatever Mercedes was doing with the droopy rear suspension, that they got to work to perfection in the last half of 2021 again, Newey didnt crack it.

 

Ferrari was right there with the Newey Red Bull in 2022 until it all seemed to fall apart after the technical directives. 

[Leibowitz]

For Mercedes, it wasn't just the engines. It was also the chassis and more specifically the rear suspension. Newey spend a fair amount of years getting beat by that combination. Whatever Mercedes was doing with the droopy rear suspension, that they got to work to perfection in the last half of 2021 again, Newey didnt crack it.

Ferrari was right there with the Newey Red Bull in 2022 until it all seemed to fall apart after the technical directives.

RB in 2018 was just as good of a chassis as Mercedes was, but the engine deficit was too much to overcome.

[jacdaniel]

There is no doubt that Newey is talented but I think it's very overstated. Red Bull won no titles between 2014 and 2020 and it wasn't just the engine.

Also, Perez, Gasly and Albon are 3 talented drivers that haven't been able to do much with the car.

While Newey is talented, I think the real cheat code is Max Verstappen. He's an absolute freak. Him, Newey and the whole team together are very strong.

[Gyan]

Isn't Newey like the only current aero guy with (substantial) ground effect experience? That would also explain why/how Dan Fallows might have boosted Aston Martin this season too seeing as Fallows has been Newey's understudy recently.

[rootten]

There is no doubt that Newey is talented but I think it's very overstated. Red Bull won no titles between 2014 and 2020 and it wasn't just the engine.

Also, Perez, Gasly and Albon are 3 talented drivers that haven't been able to do much with the car.

While Newey is talented, I think the real cheat code is Max Verstappen. He's an absolute freak. Him, Newey and the whole team together are very strong.

 

There is a flaw in this logic. Because if Verstappen is the differentiator and not the car then why he didn't win in 2017-2020? 

[Beri]

Great to see his humble beginnings in CART. Even tho they are the defining years of his career that he crafted his skills that he uses decades later on.

[jeffers]

There is a flaw in this logic. Because if Verstappen is the differentiator and not the car then why he didn't win in 2017-2020? 

 

It's the combination of the two, as it is always I guess. Brilliant driver and dito car, both unbeatable at the moment. FOr me also having now seen a few floors of the different cars. The RBR machine looks so much more advanced.

[jacdaniel]

There is a flaw in this logic. Because if Verstappen is the differentiator and not the car then why he didn't win in 2017-2020?

Max was very young and still raw in 2017/2018. As years went by he started to dominate his teammates and compete with the dominant Mercedes. Every year he was winning the odd race or two.

It's not just Max that wins though. It's the combination of him, Newey and the entire team.

[HenryGoon]

As soon as these ground effect cars were announced I knew then that Redbull would be on top. The FIA said it will bring everyone closer together but there’s only one man who has a super brain when it comes to these kind of cars and regulations. What’s more annoying is Adrian is probably already working on next years car.

[Rumblestrip]

As great as Newey is I've always been uncomfortable with the idea that all a driver needs to win a WDC is having him design the car. There's no doubt he's been top of his field for a long time, but the RB aero team consists of more than just him. 

[RedRabbit]

Isn't Newey like the only current aero guy with (substantial) ground effect experience? That would also explain why/how Dan Fallows might have boosted Aston Martin this season too seeing as Fallows has been Newey's understudy recently.

Recently? Dan Fallows was working as part of the senior aero team all way back in the Vettel days, over a decade ago.

Even Newey himself says that he has a great team behind him. This is the key. That he obviously conveys ideas and concepts very clearly, and can give his other designers a concise brief of not only direction, but what they are aiming to achieve specifically.

This is an important skillset all on its own.

[Kulturen]

For Mercedes, it wasn't just the engines. It was also the chassis and more specifically the rear suspension. Newey spend a fair amount of years getting beat by that combination. Whatever Mercedes was doing with the droopy rear suspension, that they got to work to perfection in the last half of 2021 again, Newey didnt crack it.

 

Ferrari was right there with the Newey Red Bull in 2022 until it all seemed to fall apart after the technical directives. 

 

It's easy to make your chassis look great when you have such an engine advantage that you can afford to bolt on tons and tons of downforce.

 

I'd also argue it's also nice to get the tyre supplier to have secret tests with you that supposedly do nothing but magically produce tyres that fix your tyre eating suspension problems but I forgot, we don't talk about this and it never happened 

[P123]

As great as Newey is I've always been uncomfortable with the idea that all a driver needs to win a WDC is having him design the car. There's no doubt he's been top of his field for a long time, but the RB aero team consists of more than just him. 

 

Sure I read somewhere in one of the many articles about him that part of his strength is in leadership and delegating to the right people.  He gets more free reign at Red Bull than he did at McLaren.

[P123]

It's easy to make your chassis look great when you have such an engine advantage that you can afford to bolt on tons and tons of downforce.

 

I'd also argue it's also nice to get the tyre supplier to have secret tests with you that supposedly do nothing but magically produce tyres that fix your tyre eating suspension problems but I forgot, we don't talk about this and it never happened 

 

Yeah, but it would be stupid to think a single tyre test in 2013 was relevant to years beyond.  Maybe if you add 'secret' it makes it more significant, even though it wasn't, but I'm not so sure on that.

[Beri]

As great as Newey is I've always been uncomfortable with the idea that all a driver needs to win a WDC is having him design the car. There's no doubt he's been top of his field for a long time, but the RB aero team consists of more than just him.

Senna, Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Hamilton and Rosberg would disagree with you on Prost, Hill, Villeneuve, Hakkinen, Vettel and Verstappen getting such an advantage.

That being said; Prost is the only world champion who has had championships won with cars that weren't and also one that was designed by Newey.

[Baddoer]

You can ask David Coulthard what he thinks about Newey cars. Especially MP4-18.

[Sterzo]

Newey is the greatest, but as others have pointed out, there's no way he does it alone. Let's also remember that he has an individual way of working, being more "hands on" and less enamoured of the management part of the role, than is conventional at this level. This led to fall-outs at Williams and McLaren.

 

Christian Horner is almost certainly a major contributor to success. He's found ways to adapt the organisation to play to the strengths and foibles of Newey (and presumably others). This is no mean achievement, as anyone who has ever managed a handful of techies in a humble office environment could testify.

[PayasYouRace]

Newey is the greatest, but as others have pointed out, there's no way he does it alone. Let's also remember that he has an individual way of working, being more "hands on" and less enamoured of the management part of the role, than is conventional at this level. This led to fall-outs at Williams and McLaren.

I think it’s more that he wants to manage his team the way he likes it, rather than being forced into someone else’s hierarchy. Frank and Patrick, or Ron were not going to give him that freedom to run the department as he wants.

[Bliman]

But what I personally find weird is that nobody really can challenge him or there is no fresh blood that is as good or better than him after all this time.

He is at the top for so long now.

[Dennista]

But what I personally find weird is that nobody really can challenge him or there is no fresh blood that is as good or better than him after all this time.

He is at the top for so long now.

 

A team signs Newey and they are guaranteed world championships. His pedigree is unmatched. A consistent winner for a very long time across many eras.

 

If I was a TP, I would sign 2 rookie drivers on the cheap and spend all my money on his salary.

 

How many designers are there in F1 who are race winners? Anyone have a list?

Edited by Dennista, 06 June 2023 - 12:23.

[Raest]

But what I personally find weird is that nobody really can challenge him or there is no fresh blood that is as good or better than him after all this time.

He is at the top for so long now.

I think it's because he 's one of the few designers left that have a holistic view of the car. Engineering has become so complex  now (and science in general) that it's difficult for an engineer (or a scientist) to have a good understanding of areas outside their areas of expertise even when they are closely related. Newey begun his career at about the point where this need for specialisation was about to start so he's experienced this evolution and he seems to be able to appreciate and understand the complexity of different aspects of the car. It helps that he is by all accounts extremely curious and loves exploring new areas and concepts (and has the brain power to support those endeavours). 

Edited by Raest, 06 June 2023 - 12:25.

[Sterzo]

How many designers are there in F1 who are race winners? Anyone have a list?

 

How do you define a designer?
 

[PayasYouRace]

How do you define a designer?

Their name is on the drawings.

[Claudius]

I think it's because he 's one of the few designers left that have a holistic view of the car. Engineering has become so complex now (and science in general) that it's difficult for an engineer (or a scientist) to have a good understanding of areas outside their areas of expertise even when they are closely related. Newey begun his career at about the point where this need for specialisation was about to start so he's experienced this evolution and he seems to be able to appreciate and understand the complexity of different aspects of the car. It helps that he is by all accounts extremely curious and loves exploring new areas and concepts (and has the brain power to support those endeavours).

Spot on. Newey is an aerodynamicist genius with a holistic view. He’s not a bureucrat with good managment skills, that’s prepostorous.

[Bliman]

I think it's because he 's one of the few designers left that have a holistic view of the car. Engineering has become so complex  now (and science in general) that it's difficult for an engineer (or a scientist) to have a good understanding of areas outside their areas of expertise even when they are closely related. Newey begun his career at about the point where this need for specialisation was about to start so he's experienced this evolution and he seems to be able to appreciate and understand the complexity of different aspects of the car. It helps that he is by all accounts extremely curious and loves exploring new areas and concepts (and has the brain power to support those endeavours). 

 

But you would think that after so long time that someone new would be there that could challenge him. Surely others and also newcomers see how powerful such an holistic view of the car is. Yet nobody can challenge him. Maybe I haven't followed it close enough but to me it seems like there is so little fresh blood at the top of designers.

Drivers come and go and many are super in Newey cars. So I think it is less the driver. Nothing against the drivers by the way. To me Max is already one of the greatest drivers on this Earth ever, Vettel was outstanding, etc... But the link is often Newey.

What I miss is competition in this field. To me it seems like no one is on the level of Newey And that is been the case for such a long time now that I would like some competition in that field.

[Claudius]

There is no doubt that Newey is talented but I think it's very overstated. Red Bull won no titles between 2014 and 2020 and it wasn't just the engine.

Also, Perez, Gasly and Albon are 3 talented drivers that haven't been able to do much with the car.

While Newey is talented, I think the real cheat code is Max Verstappen. He's an absolute freak. Him, Newey and the whole team together are very strong.

I know you’re a fan of Max but that’s just silly.
Newey was winning before Max was even born.

[onewingedangel]

I'm sure there are designers who could compete if given the freedom and support that Newey has, but you're not going to get that unless your name is Adrian Newey.

Everyone else has to work within the confines they are given, and engineers get siloed within their departments.

It would be interesting if some teams were more experimental and willing to take a risk, but they're all so risk adverse these days.

Getting to 13 teams would be a good start to allow more opportunities - and further reducing team head counts wouldn't be bad either.

[Bartonz20let]

One of the greats if the sport but putting Newey on a pedestal like this is disrespectful to the team that work with him and its pretty disrespectful to Merc too who built some of the best cars the sport have ever seen.

[Claudius]

One of the greats if the sport but putting Newey on a pedestal like this is disrespectful to the team that work with him and its pretty disrespectful to Merc too who built some of the best cars the sport have ever seen.

He is special and there is nothing disrespectful about that. The results speak for themselves, dominant cars in three decades for three different teams.

[Bliman]

One of the greats if the sport but putting Newey on a pedestal like this is disrespectful to the team that work with him and its pretty disrespectful to Merc too who built some of the best cars the sport have ever seen.

 

I personally disagree with this. What has been the greatest differentiator between the teams? To me this points squarely to Newey. When Mercedes was dominating many and me as well pointed to the engine advantage Mercedes had. And that was great by them, they did a great job. But imo it was not because of the design of the car. Those were great cars that had nothing fundamental wrong but to be honest I am not so sure they would have come out on top without the engine advantage (which again they deserved and did great).

But I am curious. Who do you think can go toe to toe with Newey?

And to me it is clear that a team has to be working well to have success but what according to you are the differentiators why Newey has so much success in F1?

[George Costanza]

There is no doubt that Newey is talented but I think it's very overstated. Red Bull won no titles between 2014 and 2020 and it wasn't just the engine.

Also, Perez, Gasly and Albon are 3 talented drivers that haven't been able to do much with the car.

While Newey is talented, I think the real cheat code is Max Verstappen. He's an absolute freak. Him, Newey and the whole team together are very strong.

Adrian won championships with Nigel Mansell, Alain Prost and Jacques and Damon, Mika and other great drivers. It isn't Max. Put Michael Schumacher in a Newey car it would be the same result as being champion. I am absolutely certain Ayrton would have won the 1995-1996 championship had he lived. In a Newey car. 1994 would be close.

Unless you believe Max is better than Alain Prost... Max is the same level as Prost and Schumacher.

Edited by George Costanza, 06 June 2023 - 14:54.

[PlatenGlass]

Max is better than Alain Prost. It's not a question.

*Runs*

[George Costanza]

Max is better than Alain Prost. It's not a question.

*Runs*

I think they are fairly similar. Max being quicker in qualifying but don't forget Alain Prost was very close to winning everything in 1983-1990. He was that good. Of course the car let him down in certain seasons.

I think Michael and Max along with Senna are same type of driver.

Edited by George Costanza, 06 June 2023 - 15:04.

[Claudius]

I think they are fairly similar. Max being quicker in qualifying but don't forget Alain Prost was very close to winning everything in 1983-1990. He was that good. Of course the car let him down in certain seasons.

I think Michael and Max along with Senna are same type of driver.

I agree with this broadly. I think Lewis started like that but has become quite risk-averse during the years. Max might follow a similair trajectory even though it seems improbable today.

What differentiates Lewis from those drivers is his clean racing. He hardly has dirty moves.

[Sterzo]

But you would think that after so long time that someone new would be there that could challenge him.

Why? Drivers lose their edge at a younger age than engineers and designers. Vittorio Jano designed the "top" Grand Prix cars in 1924 and 1958. If Newey is "the greatest ever" (as he might well be), then why would you not expect that to be sustained for several decades?
 

[paulb]

Why? Drivers lose their edge at a younger age than engineers and designers. Vittorio Jano designed the "top" Grand Prix cars in 1924 and 1958. If Newey is "the greatest ever" (as he might well be), then why would you not expect that to be sustained for several decades?
 

 

.... particularly since experience is so critical. There are probably very few things that Newey has not encountered in his design career.

 

[MKSixer]

There is no doubt that Newey is talented but I think it's very overstated. Red Bull won no titles between 2014 and 2020 and it wasn't just the engine.

Also, Perez, Gasly and Albon are 3 talented drivers that haven't been able to do much with the car.

While Newey is talented, I think the real cheat code is Max Verstappen. He's an absolute freak. Him, Newey and the whole team together are very strong.

VER drove the Red Bulls from 2016, on.  Not many outstanding results.  Only a handful of pole positions wins and FLs.  This combination of a Newey machine and VER is outstanding...not so much before this formula and please throw out 2021.    

[Bliman]

Why? Drivers lose their edge at a younger age than engineers and designers. Vittorio Jano designed the "top" Grand Prix cars in 1924 and 1958. If Newey is "the greatest ever" (as he might well be), then why would you not expect that to be sustained for several decades?
 

 

I am not surprised that he is still at the top. I am surprised that after all this time there isn't someone that has come along that can challenge him or is on his level or even above him. You would think that in this ultra-competitive world and where everybody is trying to improve that there would be viable challengers in this field.

It is this competive nature of the competiton that I find it weird that none can challenge him or there isn't new blood that can compete with him. After all he has been the top after all these decades in an ultra-competitive world.

Is he such a genius that after all this time there hasn't risen one somebody that can challenge him?

[kumo7]

Adrian won championships with Nigel Mansell, Alain Prost and Jacques and Damon, Mika and other great drivers. It isn't Max. Put Michael Schumacher in a Newey car it would be the same result as being champion. I am absolutely certain Ayrton would have won the 1995-1996 championship had he lived. In a Newey car. 1994 would be close.

Unless you believe Max is better than Alain Prost... Max is the same level as Prost and Schumacher.

Ok Newey is one of the great, but not the greatest.
Here is my arguments for it.

It seems to me Newey is very good at forming his team with the management to put him in the conduct, and very interested in being as the designer. His younger concurrences are more often in the gardening leave than on track operating. These condition makes him shine.

Ferrari’s Rolly@Ross had placed Newey in his corner and Toso at Renault was mighty. What matters IMHO is that his competitors seems to find the way to ‘graduate’ to management, such as Ross or Binotto. Plus, his younger competitors are in the move as they are traded as the top item like Sanchez, which makes his car not perform at its flashy edge as Newey’s
Allison can beat Newey fairly perfectly as the recent Merc WDC WCC record shows, but he also moved on, till recent reshuffle. McLaren had group of very skilled engineers and some of them were overly ambitious.

But like I said, when Merc won seven times, the victory was near perfect and Newey had no place in the competition. He wait long enough to be the shining star time after time but he is not always the shining star.

The reason why we talk about Newey is that his car is full of imagination, playful but very shrewd in interpreting the rules and does come up with inventions, and place himself in the position even if his car is far from the championship winning chassis. Which is exciting, there I agree completely.

[George Costanza]

Ok Newey is one of the great, but not the greatest.
Here is my arguments for it.

It seems to me Newey is very good at forming his team with the management to put him in the conduct, and very interested in being as the designer. His younger concurrences are more often in the gardening leave than on track operating. These condition makes him shine.

Ferrari’s Rolly@Ross had placed Newey in his corner and Toso at Renault was mighty. What matters IMHO is that his competitors seems to find the way to ‘graduate’ to management, such as Ross or Binotto. Plus, his younger competitors are in the move as they are traded as the top item like Sanchez, which makes his car not perform at its flashy edge as Newey’s
Allison can beat Newey fairly perfectly as the recent Merc WDC WCC record shows, but he also moved on, till recent reshuffle. McLaren had group of very skilled engineers and some of them were overly ambitious.

But like I said, when Merc won seven times, the victory was near perfect and Newey had no place in the competition. He wait long enough to be the shining star time after time but he is not always the shining star.

The reason why we talk about Newey is that his car is full of imagination, playful but very shrewd in interpreting the rules and does come up with inventions, and place himself in the position even if his car is far from the championship winning chassis. Which is exciting, there I agree completely.

Those Mercedes had a huge engine advantage.

As for Ross and Rory.... Michael Schumacher was the x Factor. Adrian often made a better chassis but the drivers were not at Michael's level.

Edited by George Costanza, 06 June 2023 - 16:18.

[AlexPrime]

While Newey is talented, I think the real cheat code is Max Verstappen. He's an absolute freak. Him, Newey and the whole team together are very strong.

There is no cheat IMO. Adrian is a great designer, Max a fantastic driver and Hannah a brilliant strategist. The whole team is rock solid.

[New Britain]

You can ask David Coulthard what he thinks about Newey cars. Especially MP4-18.

 

It might surprise you to learn that the reason Red Bull hired Newey was that, upon joining Red Bull, David Coulthard told Horner that, if the team had championship aspirations, they needed to go out and hire Adrian Newey.

[PlatenGlass]

It's very difficult to separate out one guy in the team. When you have a team with a lot of money and the guy with the reputation for being the best designer, that naturally attracts other top people so you can't say Newey is definitively head and shoulders above anyone else.

Plus there's cherry-picking. Mercedes recently had the best car for years (and I don't think it was simply the engine) and there was also the Ferrari dominance in the early 2000s. Newey wasn't really talked about so much as a dominant factor in the "noughties" generally. So that's a missing decade or so.

Newey is obviously a great but it's impossible to say exactly how much is down to him.

[jacdaniel]

There is no cheat IMO. Adrian is a great designer, Max a fantastic driver and Hannah a brilliant strategist. The whole team is rock solid.

Exactly and you have to include Honda in that also.
Without their engine it didn't really matter how great Max or Newey are.

[TerryC63]

His book How to Build a Car is probably the best motor racing book I have read. It really is a must read if you love the sport The man is a genius and he has his own old school way of doing things. I would say he is probably along side Chapman as the greatest desinger.

Sterzo and Raest in earlier posts sum him up well.

[Bliman]

It's very difficult to separate out one guy in the team. When you have a team with a lot of money and the guy with the reputation for being the best designer, that naturally attracts other top people so you can't say Newey is definitively head and shoulders above anyone else.

Plus there's cherry-picking. Mercedes recently had the best car for years (and I don't think it was simply the engine) and there was also the Ferrari dominance in the early 2000s. Newey wasn't really talked about so much as a dominant factor in the "noughties" generally. So that's a missing decade or so.

Newey is obviously a great but it's impossible to say exactly how much is down to him.

 

But Newey has not had success in one team but several teams. I find it weird that you say that he was not a dominant factor in the noughties.

Look at this WCC winning cars

• 1992: Williams FW14B
• 1993: Williams FW15C
• 1994: Williams FW16
• 1996: Williams FW18
• 1997: Williams FW19
• 1998: McLaren MP4/13
• 2010: Red Bull RB6
• 2011: Red Bull RB7
• 2012: Red Bull RB8
• 2013: Red Bull RB9
• 2022: Red Bull RB18

Does anyone know why he was not winning in the first decade of the 21 century?

[Bartonz20let]

Who do you think can go toe to toe with Newey?

It's impossible to say because he's the only rockstar designer and it's difficult to know who does what in other teams.

I don't disagree he's the most successful designer on the grid though, there's no dispute on that.

I'd dispute the Merc advantage to being purely engine though, they had an incredible chassis at times through their dominance, perhaps not always the most efficient aero but mechanically they were first class and that's part and parcel of overall car design.