
Should Yuki Tsunoda be promoted to the Red Bull team?
#1
Posted 06 June 2023 - 10:49
Advertisement
#2
Posted 06 June 2023 - 10:52
He wouldn't do better than Checo is doing at the moment, IMHO. Plus, I want to see if he can help Alpha Tauri get better. He's been complaning about brakes a lot, something that Gasly also did last year.
#3
Posted 06 June 2023 - 10:59
Tsunoda is doing exactly what he needs to do against de Vries to remain in F1. But he should stay at Alpha Tauri for at least another year. Pitting him against Max in his current form would be signing his death warrant.
#4
Posted 06 June 2023 - 10:59
He was beaten comfortably by Gasly last year, NdV is an unknown measuring stick. He may have suddenly improved a lot but I doubt it, I don't think he's ever going to be good enough for the best car in F1. But then he wouldn't be the first undeserving driver of a top seat.
#5
Posted 06 June 2023 - 11:02
Tsunoda is doing exactly what he needs to do against de Vries to remain in F1. But he should stay at Alpha Tauri for at least another year. Pitting him against Max in his current form would be signing his death warrant.
Absolutely this.
We've seen drivers promoted too quickly in the past to that team and they've sunk without trace.
#6
Posted 06 June 2023 - 11:10
Absolutely not, way too early to even suggest that, I mean just last year people were talking about whether he'd even have a future in F1. He's doing a solid enough job so far this year but his teammate has been terrible so there's not really much pressure on him right now and it's hard to gauge if he's actually improved compared to 2022.
I mean he constantly gets flustered on the radio for a start, and that's in a relatively low pressure environment, imagine putting him in the best car on the grid next to Verstappen. Not to mention he would be a sizable downgrade to Perez.
Right now Red Bull want an experienced driver in the second seat, and Tsunoda is anything but that.
#7
Posted 06 June 2023 - 11:12
The question is, has he really improved that much, or has de Vries been that awful?
I think he's shown some improvement, to be expected of a young driver given a third year (COUGH STEINER COUGH), but de Vries has been so bad it's impossible to judge if he would do a better job than Checo.
#8
Posted 06 June 2023 - 11:12
He doesn't strike me as someone who should be in the best car on the grid. He couldn't beat Gasly last year and I don't rate Gasly all that high, so I'm kinda doubtful Tsunoda has found that much form over the winter. Red Bull have more data, than I do, though, so they will know better.
#9
Posted 06 June 2023 - 11:13
Red Bull's been guilty of rushing talent to the top team far too quickly in the recent past - Gasly and Albon - and I personally don't think Tsunoda is better than either of those when they were promoted. So, I'd say no.
Maybe in another year or two? But who's not to say there isn't a hotter prospect available by then.
Perez isn't costing Red Bull the WCC this year, so it seems daft to make a change right now imo.
#10
Posted 06 June 2023 - 11:13
Tsunoda is exactly in the right place for his skill level.
Unless you believe that putting a slower driver than Perez in the second Red Bull opens up more podium chances for other drivers?
#11
Posted 06 June 2023 - 11:15
Checo has generally done a good job for Red Bull so I think we’d need to see if he’s in a slump or if he’s really not up to it.
Being Max’s teammate is going to be the same struggle as against any big star. Only another champion is going to look good alongside him.
#12
Posted 06 June 2023 - 11:15
#13
Posted 06 June 2023 - 11:19
His first two seasons were mediocre and he was nowhere near the level worthy of a seat at Red Bull. He needs another season with a better teammate to gauge how much he has progressed, but I doubt he will ever drive for them.
#14
Posted 06 June 2023 - 11:24
Comfortably beaten by Gasly who is now being comfortably beaten by Ocon.
Tsunoda is exactly in the right place for his skill level.
Unless you believe that putting a slower driver than Perez in the second Red Bull opens up more podium chances for other drivers?
I think Gasly's done quite well against Ocon so far, better than I expected. And Tsunoda was much closer to him last year than in 2021.
I don't think this is a complete 'no' by the way. Yuki's race performances have been quite good this year, quite steady and mature, and his one-lap pace has been good for a while. But seriously, how good/bad really is De Vries? That's the issue when it comes to rating Yuki. De Vries also seems to have started challenging Tsunoda a bit in qualifying, even with all the questions over his future.
I like Tsunoda and I'd like to see him get a shot but he'd clearly be well beaten by Max and would have to accept that really - he wouldn't be going into RB as a potential #1 so from their point of view they'll surely just continue to go for the more solid, experienced option alongside Max. I don't quite see how Tsunoda fits in.
#15
Posted 06 June 2023 - 12:52
#16
Posted 06 June 2023 - 12:56
I don't rate him. I don't think he'll ever be 'worthy' of a top seat.
#17
Posted 06 June 2023 - 13:12
#18
Posted 06 June 2023 - 13:13
I suppose he could be promoted early if Iwasa and Lawson win the F2 and SF championships, and Perez collapses in form. But that's not necessarily the best reason to move him up.
#19
Posted 06 June 2023 - 13:24
Im pretty sure that Yuki with his temper would collapse under the pressure of a top team and max in particular
Advertisement
#20
Posted 06 June 2023 - 13:25
He should swap with Max for a few races to give Max more of a challenge.
#21
Posted 06 June 2023 - 13:49
I guess, you have to assume Perez "retires" because Perez has not "earned" his way off the team. That being said, Tsunodo has performed well in an under-performing machine, but we are only 1/3 through the season. I think we are still at the "keep this up" phase, not promotion phase.
#22
Posted 06 June 2023 - 14:01
Nope, and he'll probably never be ready. I think whoever replaces Checo in a couple of years will be a top talent and right now RB don't have any in their junior program.
#23
Posted 06 June 2023 - 14:03
Not anytime soon. Needs to cement this years step up first, and maybe make another.
#24
Posted 06 June 2023 - 14:08
He was beaten comfortably by Gasly last year
What makes you say that?
#25
Posted 06 June 2023 - 14:35
#26
Posted 06 June 2023 - 14:46
perez has a contract for 2024 so ask again around this time next year
#27
Posted 06 June 2023 - 15:34
Edited by noikeee, 06 June 2023 - 15:34.
#28
Posted 06 June 2023 - 15:50
The thought occurred to me over the weekend and I thought I'd pass it over to you. Yuki Tsunoda has been doing Alpha Tauri for a few years now and although he seemed to be fighting to stay above water as a rookie, he's more often than not handing Nyck de Vries his arse and putting an extremely average car in the top 10 with some regularity.
He's still got some way to improve, but then so did every other driver who was hired for the Red Bull senior team. Does he have what it takes? Now, or in the future?
I just don’t see it in him Risil, he makes way too many mistakes still and in my opinion wouldn’t do any better than Perez. Would driving alongside Max make him or break him, I’m thinking the latter. Huge pressure environment, Gasly and Perez were shining at other teams with wins and podiums and going Redbull they just seem average so I don’t think Yuki would do any better.
#29
Posted 06 June 2023 - 15:58
IF RBR were to drop Perez mid-season, they'd be crazy not to put Ricciardo back in that seat alongside Max. I don't think they have any reason to drop Perez, but they have a known quantity in Daniel who has already shown better against Max than Sergio is doing.
#30
Posted 06 June 2023 - 16:02
#31
Posted 06 June 2023 - 16:21
Yes, after the end of Checo's contract.
#32
Posted 06 June 2023 - 16:27
I like Yuki a lot. Pierre Gasly described his former team mate as "a fantastic, enthusiastic and honest human beiing who speaks his mind without a filter". And I think Pierre described Yuki very well there.
There are some questions marks over Yuki; as some have said he was clearly beaten by Gasly (which is no shame). And this year Yuki has dominated de Vries, even trashed him. But there is the uncertainty of how reliable de Vries is as a measuring stick because Nyck may be older and more experienced in life as Yuki, fact remains that Nyck still is a rookie with 2 years less F1 race experience under his belt.
It would have been more interesting had we seen another confrontation between Gasly & Tsunoda this year to see if Tsunoda can beat him now.
Helmut Marko once said in an interview that it takes a new F1 driver three years, three full F1 seasons, before they show their true potential and start to perform at their best level. So first year to learn , second year to improve on what was learned in year 1 and the third year to start to peak and to maximise potential.
Now if you look at drivers like Pierre Gasly or Alex Albon, they did show the trend (performing strong in +- their third year) that Marko was describing and.... Yuki Tsunoda also fits that theory: performing strongly in his third season.
So was Marko right or is it just a coiincidence?
He may be but I really don't know because research / more data is needed to show that such a theory is valid. I guess it can be called vallid for drivers racing for AlphaTauri.
Tsunoda did have a strong race, top 10 on his debut race. Then started struggling, improved last year but in my opnion not enough to keep him maybe: on the cusp, but his team thought he improved enough to keep him and I have to admit he has done better as I had anticipated this year. He has even been one of the top performers this year considering he is driving for a smaller team, a B team in essence.
But the question of this poll is:
- Should Red Bull promote him to their A team to partner Max for 2024? (Effectively replacing Perez, who is still contracted for 2024 as far as I know)/
My answer is:
* Certainly not for 2024, he is not ready imho and Perez is underrated. I see very few, if any, driver who would perform on Perez' level as 2nd driver (make no mistake: he is a clear number 2) at Red Bull. Red Bull also doesn't need and doesn't even want a driver beating & challenging Max.
They want a driver who is close to Max (without upsetting the number 1 & 2 role in the team) and capable of beating the other teams. And Perez is doing exactly what is required. He doesn't threaten Max' number 1 position in the team, he is pretty close to Max for a second driver role and is beating rival teams.
* Yuki is too emotional to go up against Max imho.
Ideally, if you're going to replace Perez (who I expect to still stay in that seat for a couple of years to be honest) Red Bull should choose a driver for that position (2nd driver supporting Max) who firs of all focusses on himself and his own performance. So that driver may not be obsessed to beat Max or compare himself with Max. If you can do that as a driver, you will extract better performances and more likely become a great 2nd driver (no shame in beiing a great 2nd driver next to a rare talent) as a driver who is trying to beat Max (all the time).
A more experienced driver usually is more likely to adapt this mentality, a more experienced F1 driver usually will be more realistic about what is possible or his limitations.
Gerhard Berger said he adapted this strategy when Ayrton Senna became his team mate. Senna's speed initially shocked Berger so much when they became team mates at McLaren (fun fact: Berger did beat Senna to pole on his McLaren debut at Phoenix 1990) that Berger decided to not compare himself with Senna anymore and just focuss on himself. At the same time Berger decided to see his rival Senna bot as his rival but as omeone to work together with. They actually became good friends, and that was a relief for Ron Dennis / McLaren after the bitter internal rivalry of Prost-Senna.
So Red Bull needs a 2nd driver with Gerhard Berger's 1990's mentality. I really can't see Yuki fit that profile. And right now I don't see anyone else with that Berger (he was the ideal 2nd driver next to Senna) profile either. Except Nico Hülkenberg but he isn't the youngest driver anymore but he would fit very well.
* Is Tsunoda a possible Max team mate after 2024, so from '25-'26? I don't think so. But I have been wrong before and I had not expected Tsunoda to drive as well as he has done this year. But I fear Max would trash him and that a more experienced driver, with similar experience as Perez when he moved to Red Bull, is required when they eventually will repleace ''Checo" (not soon imho).
Personally I don't see a driver in F2 either who is going to be Max team mate or even beat Max. Sure Ayumu Iwasa is looking impressive. He seems very focussed, looks like he has more control over his emotions as Tsunoda (I do like a driver like Yuki showing his raw unfiltered emotions though but that does not improve performance: on the contrary). Iwasa has shown remarkable improvement every year and is very very quick considering that he isn't even that long in Europe yet.
But it takes a lot to perform in what is for sure the most difficult and most stressfull seat (by far) in F1: the one next to Max.
Idem for Liam Lawson, he impressed me a lot with his maturity and in particular during his DTM season when he was beating seasoned GT drivers as a rookie. He's also doing well in Japan right now, he should get de Vries seat (maybe already after the summer, I think so) but I don't see him as a future Max partner at Red Bull's A team either. I think he lacks that tiny little bit for that.
So who will partner Max after Perez in my opinion. Well as I said before , I think Perez will still stay after 2024 one or two more seasons. And then I am convinced that Red Bull will go and get Alex Albon back. With several years of extra experience since he last partnered Max he will be the perfect choice and ready for the job when Red Bull calls him back. Better prepared as AlphaTauri's current drivers or as Red Bull's F2 juniors or Lawson imho.
In the long run Red Bull's future is for sure Arvid Lindblad (born in London, Swedish parents, drives under British flag). Lindblad imho easily the most talented of all Red Bull juniors.
Lindblad may even become a Max beater at one point. He's probably the talent that comes closest to the talent of Mercedes Jr. Andrea Kimi Antonelli together with Gabriele Mini & Rafa Camara and I would also add Nikola Tsolov (jumped too early to F3 imho tjis year though), Taylor Barnard, Ugo Igochukwu and Tuuka Taponen to that shortlist from single seater feeder series.
Lindblad is Red Bull's future but we still have to wait several years before he enters F1 via AlphaTauri, he's still just 16 and in his first full season of F4.
Edited by William Hunt, 06 June 2023 - 18:21.
#33
Posted 06 June 2023 - 18:30
"as some have said he was clearly beaten by Gasly"
We still don't know why some people say that.
I assume they just look at the points, without looking at the actual performances. I personally think one should never look at the points when evaluating drivers. Especially not, if those drivers are racing for a backmarker team with erractic performances. Often one driver lucks out at having a good race when the car is good and then scores so many points, that the other driver cannot catch up.
On top of that you have to look at unforced retirements. In 2022 Tsunoda had quite a few of those: not starting in Saudi Arabia due to mechanical issues, retiring in Zandvoort with mechanical issues, crashes with Ocon and Ricciardo (for which both were penalised). Regardless of the potentially lost points, that is quite a lot of track time lost, which a young driver could really use. Yes, Tsunoda also made mistakes of his own, but that is to be expected from a driver in his second year.
In 2022 in qualifying Tsunoda was Gasly's equal. It was quite noticeable how Tsunoda had improved his speed.
Far from being "clearly beaten" by Gasly, in 2022 Tsunoda was often Gasly's equal. Only lack of experience and his sometimes erratic nature stopped him from scoring more points. But 2022 was clearly a very good season for Tsunoda, a season which showed increased development.
There is no reason to believe Tsunoda's development stopped in 2022. He has shown some excellent qualifying results, so it can be surmised that this year he would have clearly beaten Gasly in qualifying. But what has really changed in 2023 is Tsunoda's racecraft. He seems to really have matured and he has shown us some excellent races. That is what teams are looking for: the ability to develop, to progress, to adapt. There is great potential.
Tsunoda is on a straight path into a Red Bull seat. Red Bull seem to hold him in high regard, looking at how they treat him. I think the only thing which can stop Tsunoda from getting a Red Bull seat is if he gets a Aston Martin Honda seat.
#34
Posted 06 June 2023 - 18:44
I voted no, he will never be ready - I think Yuki Tsunoda has the ability to forge a decent F1 career (I consider him to be a significantly more gifted driver than someone like Mick Schumacher, for example) but despite some good showings since his debut race he hasn't impressed consistently enough to suggest he can be a potential challenger to Verstappen. I'm also not convinced he has the right mentality to be a number two driver, he comes across as rather hot headed and I fear Verstappen would get under his skin, causing him to crumble like Gasly did on promotion to the senior team.
I would say that Tsunoda is probably enjoying his best season in F1 to date, but De Vryes strikes me as a fairly weak benchmark and I suspect that if Gasly or a driver of similar ability was in the other car I'm not sure his results and performances would seem as impressive. In all honesty, assuming Verstappen stays with Red Bull for at least the duration of his current contract, I think Perez's replacement will either be Ricciardo or someone who is currently outside the Red Bull driver stable.
#35
Posted 06 June 2023 - 19:47
Tsunoda is a spoiled millennial who embarrasses himself and others during races and DtS and who's only in F1 for political reasons.
#36
Posted 06 June 2023 - 20:00
Tsunoda is a spoiled millennial who embarrasses himself and others during races and DtS and who's only in F1 for political reasons.
Yuki is Gen Z if such things have real definitions (he's born in 2000), but also what a crass thing to say all around.
#37
Posted 06 June 2023 - 20:18
Yuki is Gen Z if such things have real definitions (he's born in 2000), but also what a crass thing to say all around.
Why? Ok, he's gen Z then. Still spoiled, still embarrassing (did you watch his episode on DtS?) and still in F1 as a Honda quota.
#38
Posted 06 June 2023 - 20:37
You actually watch dts? Nuff saidWhy? Ok, he's gen Z then. Still spoiled, still embarrassing (did you watch his episode on DtS?) and still in F1 as a Honda quota.
#39
Posted 06 June 2023 - 20:47
"as some have said he was clearly beaten by Gasly"
We still don't know why some people say that.
I assume they just look at the points, without looking at the actual performances. I personally think one should never look at the points when evaluating drivers. Especially not, if those drivers are racing for a backmarker team with erractic performances. Often one driver lucks out at having a good race when the car is good and then scores so many points, that the other driver cannot catch up.
Points:
Gasly 23
Tsunoda 12
Average qualifying position:
Gasly: 12.5
Tsunoda: 13.73
Average finishing position:
Gasly: 11.58
Tsunoda: 13.06
Head to head both car finishes
Gasly 8-5 Tsunoda
The gap wasn't huge but Gasly did have the upper hand.
Advertisement
#40
Posted 06 June 2023 - 20:50
#41
Posted 06 June 2023 - 20:53
@ Gravelngrass: Tsunoda is in F1 on merit. Red Bull promoted Yuki because they believed in his talent, that was not to please Honda at all.
Red Bull has added drivers to their Junior Development program because of Honda but all of them were good drivers and interesting talents. Red Bull would not have simpy added those Honda juniors to their own rostrum if they weren't seen as prospects with potential.
Adding drivers to your Junior Academy or putting them in an F1 car is still a different story though. If Tsunoda had performed less as he did in F3 (he won a race for the rather hopeless Jenzer outfit!) and F2 then Red Bull wouldn't have promoted him.
This is not like the '80s when Honda demanded a seat for Satoru Nakajima (at Lotus and later Tyrrell) in return for engines or when Yamaha put Aguri Suzuki in the Zakspeed ('89). Tsunoda got that seat because Red Bull wanted him to have that seat, not because Honda wanted it.
Also note that Yuki often reacts or communicates with no filter (Gasly mentioned it in an interview), a bit like Steiner does at Haas. Speaking with no filter (or not realising the impact of doing that) could be an indication of a form of Autism Spectrum Disorder.
I'm not saying that they (Yuki, Günther) have autism, I'm not in the position at all to judge that since I don't even know them face to face, but it may be an explanation that's plausible.
One could also say that people who communicatie with no or little filter are more honest in what they say.
I'm interested to hear if you also consider Ayumu Iwasa "only with Red Bull backing in F2 for political reasons", do you?
Edited by William Hunt, 06 June 2023 - 21:26.
#42
Posted 06 June 2023 - 20:54
Tsunoda is a spoiled millennial who embarrasses himself and others during races and DtS and who's only in F1 for political reasons.
And to be clear, I voted that he's not good enough to be at Red Bull next year or any year. But an attack on his character like this really shows your own character.
#43
Posted 06 June 2023 - 21:27
And to be clear, I voted that he's not good enough to be at Red Bull next year or any year. But an attack on his character like this really shows your own character.
Where do you disagree and why?
#44
Posted 06 June 2023 - 21:37
#45
Posted 06 June 2023 - 21:51
I mean Hulk, K Mag, Ocon and Albon are already on their second lives. I see Yuki around for the new regs personally.
Also didn’t Honda refuse to let Alonso use their engines in Indy car?
Edited by romaincrouton, 06 June 2023 - 21:53.
#46
Posted 06 June 2023 - 22:09
.....I mean he’s no future WDC......
But then who is?
In particular who is when you have one driver racking up many titles, just like Fangio, Schumacher & Hamilton have done in the past...
#47
Posted 06 June 2023 - 22:28
He's not a millennial, Alonso is, Yuki however is generation Z.
I think Alonso is X.
#48
Posted 06 June 2023 - 22:46
RBR want drivers that perform between 95-100% every race, every session. Tsunoda will never reach that level of consistency.
#49
Posted 06 June 2023 - 23:10
Nah & haven't seen anything in his F1 stint to suggest he will.
#50
Posted 07 June 2023 - 00:19
I'd think he should be promoted to IndyCar. Especially as Sato is falling out of it, he could take the mandatory "Japanese guy" place there. And if F1 needs a "Japanese guy", Iwasa seems to be quite ready for Alfa Tauri seat.