134 replies to this topic

[juicy sushi]

If they go Dodge, they really need to lean into it.  JEV in a Vanishing Point tribute with the EV Challenger, or JEV and Gunther racing against a Taycan in a nouveau Two Lane Blacktop.

[Ben1445]

Stellantis Motorsport Announces Maserati's Commitment to the Gen 4 Era of the ABB FIA Formula E World Championship

https://www.media.st...ld-championship

Keeping this thread up to date with relevant announcements. Old habits die hard.

[Vielleicht]

I wonder if a lot of it is due to a reality of regen/charging at very high powers and that doing this means accepting a trade off in the weight. Cells a little more optimised for power density than energy density perhaps? 
 
Even so, the max race power (notably now 450kW rather than a weird 300kW or 600kW in the tender spec) and weight puts it into LMP2 sort of territory.  
 
Still don't know what the standard race power will be though - 300kW? 350kW? 400kW? Driver discretion? 

 

Seems like 450, with attack charge turning the wick up to 600.  So, 600hp in race trim, with 800hp for qualifying and attack charge, in old money.  Which is more than enough to get attention, since very few series would be more powerful, in particular in qualifying trim.  And if they keep to the currently low downforce nature of the cars, will make for something very racy since they'll be able to follow closely, powerslide, and still get into braking duels.

 

Looking at this after the Gen3 Evo's debut in São Paulo, where we saw a much more powerful Attack Mode, I think there is perhaps a limit to how much extra performance the higher mode can bring before it becomes a bit crazy or even dangerous.

[HistoryFan]

Rumours about Hyundai entering Formula E:

 

https://www.italiara...trica/251688/77

[kumo7]

Rumours about Hyundai entering Formula E:

https://www.italiara...trica/251688/77

Hyndai-McLaren tag sounds interesting and puzzling. McLaren does have E-power history and i recall the applied was sold to Greybull. Have Hyundai purchased the company? Plus McLaren can obviously build chassis. Should this happen, will McLaren be involved in ECU via Microsoft, E-Power through Greybull-Hyundai, and chassis?

Edited by kumo7, 29 December 2024 - 05:55.

[Ben1445]

Timeframe for a potential Hyundai entry looks to be from the second homologation in Gen4. So that's looking like the 2028-2029 season at the earliest. Makes sense with the Genesis LMDh program being set up in the immediate future. 

[kumo7]

Timeframe for a potential Hyundai entry looks to be from the second homologation in Gen4. So that's looking like the 2028-2029 season at the earliest. Makes sense with the Genesis LMDh program being set up in the immediate future.

cyril abitebul finally managed to sit with McLaren? He was busy seducing McLaren to develop F1 car with Renault.

[Vielleicht]

An update on the situation regarding a possible Hyundai-McLaren Gen4 pairing: 

 

https://www.the-race...ormula-e-entry/

[juicy sushi]

Hmmm, that will be something to look forward to.  The 2028 date is also interesting because the reporting on the potential McLaren LMDh project was noting that McLaren were courting someone to provide the motor.  I wonder if they're seeing if they can piggy-back off the Hyundai Genesis engine for that as well, to create a deeper relationship?  They've also been rumoured to be pitching F1 to them, so I wonder if Zak Brown is thinking of a similar depth of relationship to Andretti and GM?  Without the complicated dance around names and people since McLaren are already one of the major F1 stakeholders.

[RSRally]

News on Gen4 battery developmemt:

https://e-formula.ne...-imagined-17393

[juicy sushi]

News on Gen4 battery developmemt:

https://e-formula.ne...-imagined-17393

 

 

 

The crucial thing is to deliver a solid product that is in no way the subject of discussions in the championship.

 

That seems like a bit of a veiled reference to the problems of the Gen3 battery, which very much became the subject of discussion multiple times.

[Vielleicht]

It is good to hear that they are making good progress. 

 

The Gen3 battery had two big problems in development, I recall. Firstly the original cell selection being rejected during early testing. Then also vibration/leakage issues for the replacement cells. 

 

We have been saying that Gen3 Evo makes it very clear that Gen3 wasn't actually ready on debut (not that I think they had any other realistic choice then to press ahead). 

 

I think it is fair to say battery development issues and lost testing time were almost certainly the main factor. Otherwise, there may have been more time and more data available to iron out fast charging, battery degradation and tyre compound selection. 

 

So... hopefully both the FIA and Podium have learned from Gen3's challenges and things keep going in the right direction. 

[RSRally]

https://x.com/fe_not...ywV0wZXldA&s=19

The Gen4 test car is set to begin track testing in early April. A manufacturer group test will also take place later on this year before deliveries of manufacturer cars happens in September. More details on the look of the car coming up very soon

Edited by RSRally, 25 February 2025 - 07:28.

[thegamer23]

Definetely looks like they don't want to repeat their mistakes on the Gen 3 development

They're working ahead of schedule, i expect a much more refined package from Gen 4 from the very debut.

[Vielleicht]

How the car looks is actually probably of similar importance to how well it performs.

I for one got very tired of initial mocking reactions to Gen3’s looks very quickly. I did not think it was that bad, but it does matter at the end of the day.

The aesthetic updates to Gen3Evo suggests that they have learned this lesson, but we may not know for sure until we see the final Gen4 car revealed.

Edited by Vielleicht, 25 February 2025 - 10:31.

[RSRally]

Are we to assume that 4wd will be permanent on the Gen4? I guess it must be simce the standard power will exceed the power from one axle.

[Vielleicht]

The roadmap only says that maximum race power will be 450kW rather than the standard race power, but that is a good observation. 

 

350kW standard power jumping up to 450kW as a higher power mode seems like just too big a difference. 

[Vielleicht]

Update on Gen4 development 
 
https://www.the-race...ula-e-next-car/
 

Sounds like things are going much smoother this time around, months ahead of where Gen3 was at the same stage of development: 
 

We have the chance so far to be at least six to eight months ahead of the Gen3 project, to have time to react and to have more feedback from the manufacturer and so on," FIA technical manager Vincent Gaillardot told The Race.

 
We have this clue about the overall look bring more conventional: 
 

The Race briefly saw the design of the Gen4 at the Jeddah E-Prix last month in renders that have been viewed by a small group of Formula E stakeholders.

It showed a more conventional looking formula car design that will feature two different aerodynamic packages to be used by competitors.

 
And then these aero packages sound like they are being created by putting performance first: 
 

Regarding one of the Gen4's new functions, two differing aero packages, Gaillardot said "we have for the first time now identified two different downforce levels on the configuration, which obviously with the fact to be focused on energy [targets] means we have to have a very low drag car.

"We have been able to say 'OK, let's do a high downforce configuration' which will be dedicated to at least quali, and then we will see with the promoter if we go any further on other specifics where we can demonstrate the full speed.

From the FIA's standpoint the style and look of the Gen4 car is "just a consequence of the aero performance", according to Gaillardot.

 
I prefer this route over trying to create an 'interesting' or 'distinct' look for Formula E. Maybe at lower speeds they could get away with adding non aero-optimised aesthetic elements, but at higher speeds the extra drag becomes a lot more impactful. 

[juicy sushi]

The details about the pace of development are very encouraging.  The conversations about appearance and car size much less so.  The idea that FE should have a conventional look to focus on showing off pace is frankly pretty drooling idiocy.  Motorsports is entertainment.  The success of a non-established series comes from its ability to generate attention through creating spectacular moments that create public awareness.  A high-downforce, conventionally-sized open-wheel car will have the same problems as contemporary F1 and F2 cars, with the same problems on narrower tracks, and be much less memorable because it looks like everything else.

 

Making the exact same mistakes as everyone else is not going to grow Formula E in the long term and is the same backward thinking that infected CART in the mid-late 1990s that led to increasing fast, large cars which delivered insane lap times and dull parades that less people watched over time.  Part of the success of Formula E is that it can race well at places other series can't.  Being able to pass and perform well at Monaco, for example, is a unique advantage of FE.  Giving that up just to be as quick as an F2 car isn't a winning move.  Looking really damn cool and putting on the best race ever seen at Monaco would be.  Keep the cars smaller.  Take advantage of the fact that being a BEV means the excessive packaging demands of hybrid F1 cars is not there.  Look like a mash-up of Star Wars and a Jordan 191, race like a pack of 990cc MotoGP bikes in the early 2000s, and make everyone stop and stare.  Don't be a cheap, BEV version of F1 from wish.com. 

[Vielleicht]

Sounds like the high-downforce spec is only for qualifying, so any negative impact on overtaking should not matter much.

 

I also think that the energy-limited race + Attack Mode format is possibly a far bigger contributor to Formula E's ability to overtake than the aerodynamic concept.  

 

I also wonder if their developments are following the original tender spec (quoted here from the thread OP). There is not a huge difference in the race-spec aero configuration from the Gen3 numbers. 

 

Aerodynamics (Gen3 —> Gen4)

Low downforce kit/configuration:

• Target drag (SCx): 0.60 —> 0.65 (Gen1 was 0.75)
• Target downforce: (SCz): 2.0 (was previously 1.5 - 2.0, no data on final design)

High downforce kit/configuration:

• Target drag (SCx): 0.75
• Target downforce: (SCz): 3.0

(Perrin’s open-source 2017 F1 car data has SCx of ~1.2 and SCz of ~3.75. Assuming frontal area is similar enough I think this should give an approximate relative reference)

[thegamer23]

The details about the pace of development are very encouraging. The conversations about appearance and car size much less so. The idea that FE should have a conventional look to focus on showing off pace is frankly pretty drooling idiocy. Motorsports is entertainment. The success of a non-established series comes from its ability to generate attention through creating spectacular moments that create public awareness. A high-downforce, conventionally-sized open-wheel car will have the same problems as contemporary F1 and F2 cars, with the same problems on narrower tracks, and be much less memorable because it looks like everything else.

Making the exact same mistakes as everyone else is not going to grow Formula E in the long term and is the same backward thinking that infected CART in the mid-late 1990s that led to increasing fast, large cars which delivered insane lap times and dull parades that less people watched over time. Part of the success of Formula E is that it can race well at places other series can't. Being able to pass and perform well at Monaco, for example, is a unique advantage of FE. Giving that up just to be as quick as an F2 car isn't a winning move. Looking really damn cool and putting on the best race ever seen at Monaco would be. Keep the cars smaller. Take advantage of the fact that being a BEV means the excessive packaging demands of hybrid F1 cars is not there. Look like a mash-up of Star Wars and a Jordan 191, race like a pack of 990cc MotoGP bikes in the early 2000s, and make everyone stop and stare. Don't be a cheap, BEV version of F1 from wish.com.

Judging by OP, only the width will be slightly larger un Gen 4, so the cars will still be much smaller than most of the other single seaters around

Dimensions (Gen3 —> Gen4)
Width: 1700 mm —> 1800 mm (maximum)
Length: 5000 mm —> 5000 mm (maximum)
Height: 1250 mm —> 1250 mm (maximum

[juicy sushi]

I think the aerodynamics matters, especially as the pace increases.  Wake turbulence generally has a more pronounced effect on open-wheel cars, and as the downforce increases, the effect gets worse.

[Vielleicht]

I think we will have to wait and see what the final specs are.

Splitting out into two separate aero configurations is a potential positive. It means that the desire to push for ultimate qualifying pace does not so much impact how the car races.

A single, compromise kit might be the worst of both worlds. Not quite hitting headline-grabbing peak lap times whilst also not racing as well due to the effects of higher-downforce.

The main aesthetic question is whether the car will look similar in both configurations, or whether it is like the difference between an IndyCar in road vs oval configuration.

I think it could be cool if they look notably different.

[thegamer23]

I can imagine that the high downforce package for qualifying could consist in a Rear Wing (quite easy to mount at the back) and a higher downforce front wing.

It must be something very easy to mount & change on the car, so that they can practice both race config and quali config without waiting too much in the garage.

.

[Vielleicht]

Look like a mash-up of Star Wars and a Jordan 191

Trying to imagine what this might look like is an interesting challenge 

[juicy sushi]

Trying to imagine what this might look like is an interesting challenge 

Yeah, I was more or less just trying to describe a vibe.  What I meant was that it should convey a visual impression of being low, wide, fat-tired, with bodywork fitted around the parts instead of being large, blocky surfaces, with very minimal, inefficient wings.

 

I also am not sure the cars should even bother with being open-wheel.  Something more centre-cockpit CAN-AM/LMP, with WEC-inspired bodywork rules might be a much better path to go down for the brands involved.

[Vielleicht]

Yeah, I was more or less just trying to describe a vibe.  What I meant was that it should convey a visual impression of being low, wide, fat-tired, with bodywork fitted around the parts instead of being large, blocky surfaces, with very minimal, inefficient wings.

Makes sense, I just found it amusing to think about. 

 

I do think there are multiple ways to interpret the words 'more conventional formula car design', especially considering Sam Smith's record of journalistic exaggeration.

 

For example, the Gen3Evo is perhaps a little more 'conventional' looking than the original Gen3, but is still recognisable as something unique. 

 

So does the article wording mean Gen4 would be taking a similarly mild step further towards the 'conventional' look, or does it mean they are building an F2 clone that happens to be electric?

 

We do not really know. I suspect it is somewhere in-between. 

 

I also am not sure the cars should even bother with being open-wheel.  Something more centre-cockpit CAN-AM/LMP, with WEC-inspired bodywork rules might be a much better path to go down for the brands involved.

For me, such decisions should be led by what will be closest to the desired outcomes, rather than what we want to be closest to the desired outcomes.

 

I think that what we want from Gen4 is car which is notably faster overall, and which can continue to deliver exciting races of an attractive duration. 

 

Whether the best concept to deliver that is an open-wheel design or a centre-cockpit prototype, a single-aero kit or multiple, I do not mind. 

 

So this is mostly why I find the description of the overall look being led by the aero performance to be on the encouraging side (assuming they have established their desired outcomes well). 

 

Because you could design the most beautiful/cool/exciting looking race car in the world, but if it produces slow, un-interesting races that do not last long... I would not be at all confident of success. 

[RSRally]

More on Stellantis FE future:

https://www.the-race...ati-stellantis/

Alfa Romeo to replace Maserati would make most sense to me.

The current setup running two brands with one powertrain and partnering with an existing team rather than running as a full works entry seems to make a lot of sense from a commercial point of view - hope it continues that way.

Edited by RSRally, 25 March 2025 - 12:51.

[juicy sushi]

Hmmm... Penske for Andretti in Gen4, with Andretti moving elsewhere.  I wonder who?  

[Vielleicht]

Lola and Yamaha are continuing their partnership into Gen4. 

 

https://www.fiaformu.../en/news/523403

 

Lola have already registered for Gen4, but there was a question mark over whether Yamaha would continue with them. Now we know that they will. 

[juicy sushi]

McLaren are out for Gen4:  https://www.the-race...from-formula-e/

 

Neom not renewing, so McLaren decided it was not compelling anymore, and have thrown their eggs in the WEC basket for a shot at Le Mans glory.

[midgrid]

To clarify, the team is planning to remain in the series without McLaren or NEOM involvement.

[Disgrace]

Looks like a good opportunity for a manufacturer to get involved with a title-winning team. As a follower of WEC and FE - no loss for me!

[RSRally]

Maybe previously rumoured link up with Hyundai could happen, although probably not for the start of Gen4. Or perhaps they'll become an offical Stellantis team (Opel?)

I get the concern about limited technical freedom for customer teams tbh. At least in F1, deapite being a Mercedes powertrain customer, McLaren can make a difference to the performance of the car in other areas.

[RSRally]

McLaren exit confirmed at end of this season but Neom sponsorship in place until end of next:

https://www.the-race...al-end-of-2025/