100 replies to this topic

[MKSixer]

We all know what happened with the Indycar schism so long ago.  Now we see what happened when the LIV Tour...outrage, name calling, blackballing, and some HUGE paychecks to those departing the traditional PGA Tour.  This morning, an announcement of a merger was made between LIV and the PGA.  The PGA was forced into a corner by LIV.  Outside capital drove this and it could happen in any other sport.  

 

Could this happen in our beloved Formula One and would it be a good thing?  Is this the ultimate sports wash?

 

What say you?

Edited by MKSixer, 07 June 2023 - 11:57.

[JHSingo]

Highly doubt it'll ever happen.

 

I'm by no means a golf aficionado, so might demonstrate my lack of golf-knowledge here...but it's the still the same sport, playing to the same rules with the same equipment, whether it's PGA tour, LIV or whatever. They are (or were) basically the same thing, right?

 

The similarities between F1 and anything like IndyCar and Formula E are that they're car racing series, but that's it. There's so many differences in rules, teams, cars that it's impossible to fathom how they'd ever go about unpicking all those differences and organising to race as one series. 

 

And, I note that the PGA Tour had previously described LIV as being an "existential threat". Well, that's not the case here. Whilst us fans like to be debate the pros and cons of F1, IndyCar, Formula E or whatever, they're not really in direct competition, and can happily co-exist within their own spheres. F1 has nothing to worry about in terms of any other series becoming more popular, or attracting its teams or drivers. 

 

As much as it might pain some, F1 is and likely always will be the dominant series in motorsport. Until it gets killed off by the relentless greed and self interest of the people involved... 

 

[KWSN - DSM]

Deleted by poster.

Edited by KWSN - DSM, 13 June 2023 - 09:41.

[KWSN - DSM]

Deleted by poster.

Edited by KWSN - DSM, 13 June 2023 - 09:39.

[Risil]

Not sure -- but the LIV/PGA spat has extinguished my interest in golf. This **** is toxic.

[ensign14]

What if PIF buy out Liberty?

[uzsjgb]

Yes there are countries around the world hosting for same sports, who we can think and discuss as not fit as a partner for strongly moral and ethical people like us - This post is a reaction to LIV and the misogynistic, mediaeval despotic countries of the Middle East.

 

I love LIV golf - it supplies us with an easy way to convince ourselves of our moral and ethical superiority.

 

I have never read an article about the PGA where the number of executions in the USA were mentioned, but in almost every article about LIV the number of executions in Saudi Arabia are. Misogyny is never mentioned when the PGA plays in conservative US states with strict abortion laws, but always gets mentioned, when LIV is the topic.

 

Seeing that human rights, etc. are only a topic on this forum, when Formula One races in Middle Eastern countries, I would say that Formula One already has its LIV counterpart.

[SenorSjon]

We have what, 14 world boxing federations these days? I lost count.

[jwill189]

What if PIF buy out Liberty?

 

Didn't PIF try buying out F1 for 20 billion and were rejected? Who knows if a higher number was all for Liberty Media to sell.

[AncientLurker]

I think F1 (Liberty) is more at risk of being bought out than the LIV breakaway model. You can't control who builds golf courses, but if you are the FIA, you can control which tracks get racing licenses and who they will allow to race where. When CART was big in the early 90s I believe this was (or was rumoured to be) the way to keep CART from expanding into Europe. Because of this, FIA essentially has a monopoly if you want to race internationally.

 

I don't care for golf (understatement), so I hope the outrage over this hostile takeover (packaged as a merger) by LIV is enough to get everyone to stop playing and we can turn the courses into parks.

[F1matt]

What if PIF buy out Liberty?

 

 

This is what I think will happen, eventually American companies will be paying to much interest on their debt and a recession will give their banks a headache, investment funds like PIF need somewhere to park their dollars.  

[KWSN - DSM]

Not sure -- but the LIV/PGA spat has extinguished my interest in golf. This **** is toxic.

 

Deleted by poster.

Edited by KWSN - DSM, 13 June 2023 - 09:39.

[BoDarvelle]

If someone wants to start up a series with V10 powered open wheelers with top names for drivers I'll be watching. Don't care who's financing it.

[Jellyfishcake]

I'm not sure it's exactly the same, I mean F1 is already owned by another company, Liberty, so I wouldn't be suprised if someday PIF or another group simply buy it off Liberty anyway

[Clatter]

I think F1 (Liberty) is more at risk of being bought out than the LIV breakaway model. You can't control who builds golf courses, but if you are the FIA, you can control which tracks get racing licenses and who they will allow to race where. When CART was big in the early 90s I believe this was (or was rumoured to be) the way to keep CART from expanding into Europe. Because of this, FIA essentially has a monopoly if you want to race internationally.

I don't care for golf (understatement), so I hope the outrage over this hostile takeover (packaged as a merger) by LIV is enough to get everyone to stop playing and we can turn the courses into parks.

FIA only have a say in FIA sanctioned events. They could not prevent a breakaway series from racing, and they cannot stop the circuits from hosting them.

Edited by Clatter, 07 June 2023 - 13:25.

[JHSingo]

If someone wants to start up a series with V10 powered open wheelers with top names for drivers I'll be watching. Don't care who's financing it.

 

The problem with launching a breakaway series has always been how to make it more attractive than F1, though. 

 

You could launch a series with V10 powered cars offering drivers big salaries, but the majority of young drivers in karting would still say their dream was to become Formula One World Champion. 

[KWSN - DSM]

The problem with launching a breakaway series has always been how to make it more attractive than F1, though. 

 

You could launch a series with V10 powered cars offering drivers big salaries, but the majority of young drivers in karting would still say their dream was to become Formula One World Champion. 

 

Deleted by poster.

Edited by KWSN - DSM, 13 June 2023 - 09:40.

[AncientLurker]

FIA only have a say in FIA sanctioned events. They could not prevent a breakaway series from racing, and they cannot stop the circuits from hosting them.

 

True, but the FIA has a lot of influence beyond racing.

 

Edit: I should also add, that even if a circuit is free to host a break away series, the FIA is also free to prevent any FIA sanctioned racing at that circuit and even rescind their FIA sanctioning. So any circuit willing to take $ from a new series would have to get enough to cover all the other FIA events they would (likely) lose. They would be gambling on the new series winning long term, but also jeopardizing their country's standing in the FIA for all non-racing related matters the FIA controls.

 

This is why I don't think the LIV model of an aggressive takeover funded by an endless war chest will work. Instead, a country looking to sports-wash by buying F1, would need to; establish members into key FIA positions, like the president, invest heavily into as many teams as they can, move as many races to their country and like-minded countries as possible, then look at buying out the series. I think we are on step 4 of 4 at this point.

Edited by AncientLurker, 07 June 2023 - 15:02.

[Clatter]

True, but the FIA has a lot of influence beyond racing.

Money talks, and if someone has ambitions to start a breakaway they will no doubt have a bountiful amount of cash with which to fund it. I doubt the FIA would be much of an obstacle.

[JHSingo]

Money talks, and if someone has ambitions to start a breakaway they will no doubt have a bountiful amount of cash with which to fund it. I doubt the FIA would be much of an obstacle.

 

I don't know. I might be remembering this incorrectly, but I'm sure when FOTA tried to launch a breakaway series all those years ago, there was some story that they wouldn't be allowed to race at the tracks F1 raced at or something? 

 

If that is still the case, then the creators of a breakaway series would face a litany of problems, such as deciding whether it's single spec series, or needs manufacturer involvement. If it's manufacturer based, you need to make it appealing to manufacturers. If it's a single spec series, it means it automatically can't really be seen as a credible rival to F1 anyway. Or even rely on the prestige of manufacturer entries. In which case, how do you convince drivers, or indeed the public, that it is a "rival" to F1 when you don't have 70+ year's worth of history, World Championship status or manufacturers? 

 

I think it's worth remembering that for all the threats and rumours of breakaway series to F1 over the years (wasn't Bernie himself supposedly behind one?), they've all never materialised. Maybe because most of the time they're just a threat rather than anything genuinely serious, but I suspect also just because there's so many stumbling blocks you'd need to clear even before the series began racing. It's not just the simple case of offering drivers a load of money to jump ship. There's a lot that would need to happen before that could even take place.

 

Setting up a brand new professional racing series isn't easy. Setting up a brand new racing series that also marketed itself as a rival to F1, well, that's just about impossible. 

 

Motorsport has its problems - but I think we should be glad in many ways that it's fairly immune to the sort of thing seen in golf. 

Edited by JHSingo, 07 June 2023 - 16:38.

[Clatter]

I don't know. I might be remembering this incorrectly, but I'm sure when FOTA tried to launch a breakaway series all those years ago, there was some story that they wouldn't be allowed to race at the tracks F1 raced at or something?

If that is still the case, then the creators of a breakaway series would face a litany of problems, such as deciding whether it's single spec series, or needs manufacturer involvement. If it's manufacturer based, you need to make it appealing to manufacturers. If it's a single spec series, it means it automatically can't really be seen as a credible rival to F1 anyway. Or even rely on the prestige of manufacturer entries. In which case, how do you convince drivers, or indeed the public, that it is a "rival" to F1 when you don't have 70+ year's worth of history, World Championship status or manufacturers?

I think it's worth remembering that for all the threats and rumours of breakaway series to F1 over the years (wasn't Bernie himself supposedly behind one?), they've all never materialised. Maybe because most of the time they're just a threat rather than anything genuinely serious, but I suspect also just because there's so many stumbling blocks you'd need to clear even before the series began racing. It's not just the simple case of offering drivers a load of money to jump ship. There's a lot that would need to happen before that could even take place.

Setting up a brand new professional racing series isn't easy. Setting up a brand new racing series that also marketed itself as a rival to F1, well, that's just about impossible.

Motorsport has its problems - but I think we should be glad in many ways that it's fairly immune to the sort of thing seen in golf.

I'm not expecting it to happen, but with the right money behind it, it could very much happen. The only real barrier is the funding,

[NewMrMe]

I think one thing that makes it harder in motorsport is the strength of the F1 brand. When you hear casual fans talking about it, how often do you hear them say they watched motor racing or motorsport as opposed to saying they watched Formula 1? I can't think of another sport where people tend to say the name of a series instead of the name of the sport.

[loki]

A breakaway is more nuanced than that.  They need TV deals, promoters, teams.  You don’t need a billion dollar organization to start playing golf and be competitive.   You need that to build race cars that can win championships.  The teams want to share control. That would make it more difficult for a top down sanction.

 

The reason a $20 bil offer would be denied is because it’s lowball.  FWONK, the class C stock (for us commoners) has a market cap of $28 bil as of this moment.  Buying at a premium could likely end up like Twitter did for Musk by overpaying for the company.  They’d have to convince not only Malone but the institutions that hold the stock to sell.  I’d see the Saudis buying/building a team and hosting a race(s) rather than buying the series.  It’s a much less expensive way to sports wash.

[loki]

I think one thing that makes it harder in motorsport is the strength of the F1 brand. When you hear casual fans talking about it, how often do you hear them say they watched motor racing or motorsport as opposed to saying they watched Formula 1? I can't think of another sport where people tend to say the name of a series instead of the name of the sport.

Depends on what part of the world you’re in.  It’s like that here but the sanction mentioned is Nascar.    F1, while more popular these days is still a blip on the radar.

[jjcale]

The world is changing .... we are going to have to get used to it. 

 

But F1 is not Golf ... the changes that the world is undergoing will manifest in different ways in F1 - as they are already are to an extent .... but (more) changes will come to F1 too .... if F1 survives. 

[jjcale]

Its a shame that Bernie is not 15-20 years younger ... he had a very good sense of how to take advantage of big changes (aside from his failure to appreciate the value to be had by new tech related branding and new media channels) .... He was great at adapting ..... Liberty seem to me to want to drive change. This is for me a mistake as aside from rectifying Bernie's mistake re failing to brand F1 as a new tech type business and making more use of the internet they have to look into the future in order for their approach to work - and predicting change is a mugs game which leads to failure more often than not.... better to just adapt (quickly and effectively) to change. 

 

I can see Liberty selling once they unlock the value tied up with the still ongoing rebrand of F1 .... after that it is not clear where they plan to take F1 as a business. ... F1 TV (or whatever it is called) seems to have failed (so far) - and making that work would seem to be the most obvious thing to do ... but I am not aware of any new plans or planned new investment ... so how is that going to happen??     Looks to me like moving past the rebrand to truly making F1 a modern media tech company will be a job for the next owners. ... who i do not expect to be western as we are now at a cross over point in the world where the money in the rest of the world is now greater than the wealth that exists in the west.

 

... but then I did say that predicting the future is a mugs game....

[Afterburner]

Exactly and why the PGA could have held firm on not giving automatics to any of the LIV golfers for the Majors, the top golfers look for those and do not care about any of the other they play. Starve them of The Open, US Open, PGA and Masters... in a few years they are gone, and the young ones coming up will be PGA players in order to win them.

I do not understand the lawsuit the PGA supposedly were about to lose, at the cost of billions and that being the reason bandied about over here.

Clearly the people running the PGA Tour are not American open-wheel fans, lest they’d have realized your correct hypothesis that control of marquee events is key.

[BoDarvelle]

I think one thing that makes it harder in motorsport is the strength of the F1 brand. When you hear casual fans talking about it, how often do you hear them say they watched motor racing or motorsport as opposed to saying they watched Formula 1? I can't think of another sport where people tend to say the name of a series instead of the name of the sport.

 

Nascar

Indycar

 

No one says they are watching the stock car races or open wheel races.

 

There's any number of other series that are usually called by their name as well versus discipline. IMSA comes to mind as does World of Outlaws. Although that is generally just called Outlaws.

[Fastcake]

It's bad enough having four races stuck in the region, but the idea of the whole entity being owned by one of these parasitic, hollow states who see Formula One as nothing more than a shiny bauble is depressing.

[George Costanza]

It already happened in F1 in 2004 under Bernie... The first Bahrian Grand Prix...

Edited by George Costanza, 07 June 2023 - 22:44.

[George Costanza]

It can unfortunately happen to every big money making sport, not one of them are safe from faucets of money when morals and ethics are not part of what they consider important as being a socially conscious entity in a world trying to become a better place for all.

FIFA gave us Qatar
IHF gave is Qatar
F1 gave us Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain
PGA, DP World gave us LIV and Saudi Arabia
DP World gave us Abu Dhabi, UAE,
World Athletics gave us Qatar
WTA gave us Abu Dhabi, Qatar, Dubai
ATP gave us Qatar, Dubai
UCI gave us UAE tour

Big sports, big money hosted in places for one reason and one reason only money.

Yes there are countries around the world hosting for same sports, who we can think and discuss as not fit as a partner for strongly moral and ethical people like us - This post is a reaction to LIV and the misogynistic, mediaeval despotic countries of the Middle East.

And yes we all consume all or some of the above.

.
Spot on.

[YamahaV10]

This could easily happen in F1 and I am predicting it by 2035. F1 keeps making environmental initiatives its central thing. By 2030, the decision will be made to go all electric. And I don't think all the teams will agree. Ferrari and Red Bull might pull out and form their own series. 

 

Or maybe by 2025, A1 Grand Prix will be up and running. And by 2030, A1 GP will be a legit alternative to F1 and Red Bull and Ferrari will jump over to F1 just like Chip Gnassi and Penske jumped to IRL. 

 

CART got killed by ditching a historic track. And today we have F1 being pretty open to the idea of ditching Monaco and Spa. This is all shaping up.

Edited by YamahaV10, 08 June 2023 - 06:35.

[YamahaV10]

Money talks, and if someone has ambitions to start a breakaway they will no doubt have a bountiful amount of cash with which to fund it. I doubt the FIA would be much of an obstacle.

 

A1 Grand Prix was started and funded by middle eastern money. And the FIA sanctioned it. 

 

There is already serious talk about relaunching A1 GP. And it probably wont be expensive complicated hybrids. The cars would most likely be the size of the early 2000's F1 cars too. 

[CSF]

There will come a point where the PIF withdraws all this cash and then what? All this does is prove that whatever "we hold dear" is for sale so long as someone at the top can make a big profit. 

[Ben1445]

This could easily happen in F1 and I am predicting it by 2035. F1 keeps making environmental initiatives its central thing. By 2030, the decision will be made to go all electric. And I don't think all the teams will agree. Ferrari and Red Bull might pull out and form their own series.

I just don’t think it’s at all likely that F1 will make a decision to become fully-electric, especially within that timeframe. There’s no indication of that intent from the leadership (quite the opposite, in fact) or from key sponsors and competitors.

I think it’s far more likely that the sport ends up mostly bankrolled by petrochemical companies pushing for sustainable fuels.

Unless you’re expecting tobacco-style advertising bans on petrochemical companies which makes it harder and harder for the sport to exploit this angle? Because that would throw a spanner in the works, and not just for F1…

Edited by Ben1445, 08 June 2023 - 07:49.

[jee]

This could easily happen in F1 and I am predicting it by 2035. F1 keeps making environmental initiatives its central thing. By 2030, the decision will be made to go all electric.

Won't happen before 2039, Formula E got an exclusive license until then.

[Ben1445]

I’m still mostly of the opinion that FE’a exclusive EV license is/was to secure necessary investments by having a mechanism to protect said investors, rather than to seriously stop an entity like F1 from switching or setting up their own competitor sub-category before that date.

The investors mainly just want financial returns - don’t think they mind too much if that comes from FE being a success or from F1 paying them a huge wad of cash to buy them out of the FIA contract.

It’s been critical to the success of FE so far, and continues to be… but likely not as permanent as many think.

Edited by Ben1445, 08 June 2023 - 08:05.

[JHSingo]

This could easily happen in F1 and I am predicting it by 2035. F1 keeps making environmental initiatives its central thing. By 2030, the decision will be made to go all electric. And I don't think all the teams will agree. Ferrari and Red Bull might pull out and form their own series. 

 

Or maybe by 2025, A1 Grand Prix will be up and running. And by 2030, A1 GP will be a legit alternative to F1 and Red Bull and Ferrari will jump over to F1 just like Chip Gnassi and Penske jumped to IRL. 

 

CART got killed by ditching a historic track. And today we have F1 being pretty open to the idea of ditching Monaco and Spa. This is all shaping up.

 

With all due respect, this is nothing more than an unrealistic pipe dream. 

 

Even if F1 did want to switch to electric power as soon as 2030 (which they can't, for reasons already mentioned in this thread), they won't. Formula E's performance has increased a lot from the first season, sure, but battery tech would have to develop a hell of a lot in a very short space of time if electric F1 cars were going to come anywhere close to matching the performance of cars today. Or Grands Prix would suddenly have to become a lot shorter than an hour and a half. 

 

So that's not going to happen. Nor is A1 GP going to become a rival series to F1 capable of attracting Red Bull and Ferrari in the space of five years'. That's just absurd - particularly when A1 GP, if it is reborn, is going to be a single spec series. As was confirmed by the reports a couple of weeks ago. A series isn't going to go from being single spec, to something that Ferrari and Red Bull join, particularly not as quickly as you imagine. 

 

I am quite baffled by people do think a breakaway/rival series to F1 could happen. F1's been around for more than 70 years as a World Championship. In that time, there have been many series that have been launched with grand aspirations, and others that have been rumoured, threatened or speculated about. But not one has ever been successful in terms of being a rival to F1. It's rather telling, don't you think? 

Edited by JHSingo, 08 June 2023 - 08:26.

[Hati]

Who would break away from F1 today?

[F1matt]

It's bad enough having four races stuck in the region, but the idea of the whole entity being owned by one of these parasitic, hollow states who see Formula One as nothing more than a shiny bauble is depressing.

 

 

No they only have three races; Austin, Miami, and Las Vegas. No doubt they will be inflicting a race in New York upon us in the near future. 

[Risil]

At Watkins Glen? We can dream...

[F1matt]

At Watkins Glen? We can dream...

 

No doubt only a street circuit for Liberty, can't have those pointless celebrities having to travel to an actual racetrack. 

[Ben1445]

New York GP around the Brooklyn Ferry Terminal in Red Hook… it’s destiny!

[Collombin]

In that time, there have been many series that have been launched with grand aspirations, and others that have been rumoured, threatened or speculated about. But not one has ever been successful in terms of being a rival to F1. It's rather telling, don't you think?

Group C must have been getting close for Bernie to arrange its killing.

[Stephane]

It can unfortunately happen to every big money making sport, not one of them are safe from faucets of money when morals and ethics are not part of what they consider important as being a socially conscious entity in a world trying to become a better place for all.

FIFA gave us Qatar
IHF gave is Qatar
F1 gave us Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain
PGA, DP World gave us LIV and Saudi Arabia
DP World gave us Abu Dhabi, UAE,
World Athletics gave us Qatar
WTA gave us Abu Dhabi, Qatar, Dubai
ATP gave us Qatar, Dubai
UCI gave us UAE tour

Big sports, big money hosted in places for one reason and one reason only money.

Yes there are countries around the world hosting for same sports, who we can think and discuss as not fit as a partner for strongly moral and ethical people like us - This post is a reaction to LIV and the misogynistic, mediaeval despotic countries of the Middle East.

And yes we all consume all or some of the above.

What you mean DP World gave as Abu Dhabi ? DP world means Dubai Ports...

[maximilian]

Greedy bastards all teams have become, I wouldn't put it past them to jump ship from FIA and join a breakaway series.

[Ben1445]

I might low-key enjoy the drama of an F1 split/breakaway, I can't lie, but it does just seem really, really unlikely. 

[KWSN - DSM]

What you mean DP World gave as Abu Dhabi ? DP world means Dubai Ports...

 

Deleted by poster.

Edited by KWSN - DSM, 13 June 2023 - 09:40.

[Sam1]

A1GP was the only series that actually had a shot and look were that is now.

[F1Johnny]

If someone wants to start up a series with V10 powered open wheelers with top names for drivers I'll be watching. Don't care who's financing it.

 

Which 10 drivers do you think they would have to get to threaten F1?