57 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

Three friends and I are discussing the 24 hour race as we are watching it.

 

About ten minutes into the third hour a Porsche took the lead, briefly.  This became the 4th different make to lead the race.  I wonder how long it is since four different makes have led the race in the first two and a bit hours?  
 

If ever!

Edited by Barry Boor, 10 June 2023 - 16:32.

[Tim Murray]

As it happens I was checking something on the 1937 race earlier this week. In this race Brunet’s Delahaye led away from the start. He was overtaken by the Talbot of de las Casas, which was itself passed by Sommer’s Alfa before the end of the first lap. Wimille’s Bugatti then took the lead on the fifth lap. There appear to have been no further lead changes.

[Doug Nye]

The Eurosport coverage this year has an unfamiliar team of commentators.  Thus far they have been irritating the hell out of me, not least the usual bone-idle Americanese "the 38 chopping across the 51 and the 51 saying 'y'know what, I'll let you get away with that' - 'and the 6 is in the pits ahead of the 5' - plus that antipodean screamer, Buster Bloodvessel....just uninformative, intolerable, relentless, wall-to-wall, unworthy, drivel.  

 

Aaah, the volume control - zero - deep joy...

 

But one is disappointed...  

 

DCN

[Barry Boor]

Thanks, Tim.

 

Yes, Doug, there are far too many commentators. They should take note from the Nurburgring 24 hours.

[Collombin]

1960 had the big Chevys at the front before the start (courtesy of engine capacity in those days of course), with Clark an early leader in the Aston Martin, then a Jag, then the Maserati birdcage, with the winning Ferrari finally getting to the front in the second hour.

[sabrejet]

Commentators are indeed annoying: for some reason, Paul-Loup Chatin has become Paul-Loup Chaton (in in-joke?) and Yifei Ye ended up as something truly bizarre. And then we have "sir-kit" de la sarthe, which is like saying 'beef' bourguignon.

 

And so far it's FIVE manufacturers leading (Porsche, Toyota, Cadillac, Ferrari and Peugeot).

 

Another question: the NASCAR Camaro is running an iron block: when did we see that last? The Porsche 924/944s maybe?

[2F-001]

I'm following it in sound only, on Radio Le Mans - they are doing a pretty decent job.

 

Re. Barry's comment: something else they might learn from the Nurburgring 24 hours, is how to successfully run race without Safety Cars. The process here seems incredibly convoluted and drawn out; with them separating out the classes before assembling the field for a restart - doesn't this deny a lower class car the opportunity for giant-killing by mixing it with the supposedly quicker cars?

 

There seemed to be a lot of incidents early on. And Carnage at Arnage?

Edited by 2F-001, 10 June 2023 - 18:34.

[sabrejet]

There seemed to be a lot of incidents early on. And Carnage at Arnage?

 

Don't think there's been carnage at Arnage yet, but just about everywhere else it seems!

[Porsche718]

The Eurosport coverage this year has an unfamiliar team of commentators.  Thus far they have been irritating the hell out of me, not least the usual bone-idle Americanese "the 38 chopping across the 51 and the 51 saying 'y'know what, I'll let you get away with that' - 'and the 6 is in the pits ahead of the 5' - plus that antipodean screamer, Buster Bloodvessel....just uninformative, intolerable, relentless, wall-to-wall, unworthy, drivel.  

 

Aaah, the volume control - zero - deep joy...

 

But one is disappointed...  

 

DCN

 

Please Doug,

 

Don't hold back. Say what you really feel!

 

Cheers

 

Steve W

[Ray Bell]

Perhaps Doug should switch over to the cricket?

 

The commentary is far more restrained...

[sabrejet]

Despite Toyota taking five Le Mans victories, the one topic of discussion that wouldn't go away was the lack of serious opposition in those years. But what has become apparent this year at Sebring, at Spa, and now at Le Mans is that, given in-depth serious competition, Toyota makes mistakes. And not just in the race, but in qualifying too. Or perhaps more fairly, given the extra burden of competition, they find themselves in waters less safe. 

 

And given the immeasurably greater depth of competition at the head of the field this year and Toyota's response to that, especially in taking the fight to the Ferraris, I'd suggest that the 2023 Le Mans 24 Hours should be remembered as their greatest.

 

Meanwhile, I really appreciated Jethro Bovingdon's pit interviews. And the choice of TK and Leena Gade to add insight to the Eurosport coverage has really raised the bar.   

[GazChed]

Don't forget the WEC championship is a BoP series (i.e. a handicap) and Toyota were carrying top weight...

[lyntonh]

The Eurosport coverage this year has an unfamiliar team of commentators.  Thus far they have been irritating the hell out of me, not least the usual bone-idle Americanese "the 38 chopping across the 51 and the 51 saying 'y'know what, I'll let you get away with that' - 'and the 6 is in the pits ahead of the 5' - plus that antipodean screamer, Buster Bloodvessel....just uninformative, intolerable, relentless, wall-to-wall, unworthy, drivel.  

 

Aaah, the volume control - zero - deep joy...

 

But one is disappointed...  

 

DCN

That 'antipodean screamer' will be the one we used to suffer years ago who was given the label 'shouting boy' by my then fourteen year old son.

 

As my grandpa used to say.....'weak point......yell loud' !

Edited by lyntonh, 11 June 2023 - 15:16.

[john winfield]

But what a race! And what a return for Ferrari. The 333SP was a treat in the late nineties, but it's fifty years since the great Ferrari/Matra battle for outright victory that ended with a whimper, as the Ickx/Redman 312PB finally ground to a halt on that Sunday afternoon.

 

But in 2023, a happy ending for the red cars. Well done Ferrari!

[marksixman]

 

But in 2023, a happy ending for the red cars. Well done Ferrari!

An absolutely fantastic result !

 

Jochen and Masten would be amazed that it has taken so long. Ed Hugus probably spinning in his grave as he may never be mentioned again !

[john aston]

I watched some absolutely mesmerising footage on YouTube early this  morning , the in car feed from one of the Ferraris. I was apparently driving on empty country roads with the odd piece of Armco visible. No other car in sight for a long time , 330km/h down the Mulsanne , slower car ahead eventually, the sort of car (a 911 ) which would annihilate everything you'd normally encounter on the road . Blam - overtaken in a heartbeat . 

 

And more in car stuff , the camera focussed on the driver of a Glickenhaus during a long pit stop. Thousand yard stare, he looked exhausted . Then engine fired up, back to work at 3 miles a minute. 

 

It helps that I'm half way through my review of Richard Williams book but I am smitten with Le Mans , which seems more exciting than any time since the 917/512 era . 

 

How I'd love to see a WEC race at Silverstone (or Brands Hatch) but it isn't  possible. There is  Le Mans, Fuji , Monza, Sebring  and Spa - of course. Portimao, not so much  . And who knew Bahrain - yes, bloody  Bahrain-  had such a rich heritage  of motorsport that it now gets its very own 8hour race ... Words fail me  

[john winfield]

An absolutely fantastic result !

 

Jochen and Masten would be amazed that it has taken so long. Ed Hugus probably spinning in his grave as he may never be mentioned again !

 

I think Ed Hugus jr. was the reserve driver for both of this year's Ferraris. Whether he drove either, or both, is a matter of debate. 

[Doug Nye]

Hugus ( whom I concluded to have been a liar) was given 1965 win-sharing credit at one point...by the breathless Antipodean commentator...so that's all right then.

 

Wonderful result - outstanding event - worthy of the centenary edition - well done ACO and all who sailed in her, and brilliantly well done AF Corse and Ferrari.  So good to see real manufacturer prototypes racing (if still largely by proxy) - and to see the 24-Hours back upon the pedestal which for so many years was alarmingly empty, and which had become in truth near meaningless.  Great cars and talented drivers performing out of their skins in often daunting conditions upon a wonderfully historic arena.  

 

For us up our tree in the woods here, Le Mans '23 fulfilled all long anticipation.  Can frequency-devalued mere Formula 1 compete?   

 

DCN 

[Doug Nye]

Perhaps Doug should switch over to the cricket?

 

The commentary is far more restrained...

 

Hmmm - Only because the Ockers won...

 

DCN

[AllanL]

Can frequency-devalued mere Formula 1 compete?   

 

DCN 

No.

 

Oh, Ed winning Le Mans? Up there with Lindbergh's first crossing of the Atlantic (Just try persuading some revolting colonists otherwise), American pilots winning the Battle of Britain, Packard improving the Merlin and - my all time favourite - Bell (of P-39 fame) improving the Spitfire.

 

On the other hand Phil Hill and Dan Gurney made up in charm for their more misguided fellow nationals. (Other Le Mans winners are available)

[Doug Nye]

Hugus made claims which contemporary evidence overwhelmingly refute.  He appears not to have made such claims until other principal participants in that 1965 race win had died.

 

DCN

[DCapps]

After much research skullduggery and more than a bit of asking the usual embarrassing questions that historians are prone to do, it seems quite improbable that Ed Hugus relieved anyone for any length of time during the 1965 Le Mans race. 

 

See Above ^^^^

Edited by DCapps, 11 June 2023 - 19:19.

[Gabrci]

Hugus ( whom I concluded to have been a liar) was given 1965 win-sharing credit at one point...by the breathless Antipodean commentator...so that's all right then.

 

Haha I thought of you when he said that! 

[10kDA]

No.

 

Oh, Ed winning Le Mans? Up there with Lindbergh's first crossing of the Atlantic (Just try persuading some revolting colonists otherwise), American pilots winning the Battle of Britain, Packard improving the Merlin and - my all time favourite - Bell (of P-39 fame) improving the Spitfire.

 

 

 

As a US resident who has been involved with aviation in one way or another since 1966 or so, I must say I have never heard of any of these examples. Thanks for bringing them to my attention.
 

[ensign14]

Robert Ripley got hate mail when he pointed out Linderbergh was not the first to fly the Atlantic.

[Emery0323]

Hugus made claims which contemporary evidence overwhelmingly refute.  He appears not to have made such claims until other principal participants in that 1965 race win had died.

 

DCN

 

For those who might not have seen it, here is the link to Doug's article from Motorsport magazine three years ago, which convincingly refutes the "urban legend" of  Ed Hugus having driven the 1965 LeMans winner:

https://www.motorspo...-mans-1965-win/

Edited by Emery0323, 11 June 2023 - 23:14.

[D28]

But what a race! And what a return for Ferrari. The 333SP was a treat in the late nineties, but it's fifty years since the great Ferrari/Matra battle for outright victory that ended with a whimper, as the Ickx/Redman 312PB finally ground to a halt on that Sunday afternoon.

 

But in 2023, a happy ending for the red cars. Well done Ferrari!

A marvelous result, one i hoped for but didn't really think likely. Local news outlets use the AP wire story which concentrates on the 50 year absence,of factory entrants without making this clear This degrades the achievements of all those privateers who won numerous class titles for Ferrari over the years. And of course Chinetti and NART were prime examples.Today's victory is a fitting continuation of the winning  record, and a return to the mark of  Rindt and Gregory, set 58 years ago.

Edited by D28, 12 June 2023 - 15:21.

[10kDA]

I think Ed Hugus jr. was the reserve driver for both of this year's Ferraris. Whether he drove either, or both, is a matter of debate. 

 

We'll know more in thirty years or so.
 

[404KF2]

The race was greatly entertaining throughout - I like the slow burn of the endurance events - and the announcers didn't annoy me half as much as the Sky people who cover F1, especially the one who feigns unbridled excitement at every non-event on track to try and convince people that F1 is exciting to watch.

[Charlieman]

Hugus ( whom I concluded to have been a liar) was given 1965 win-sharing credit at one point...by the breathless Antipodean commentator...so that's all right then.

If motorsport was not infested with fantasists and grifters, you'd have had to get a proper job long ago, chummy. 

[guiporsche]

A marvelous result, one i hoped for but didn't really think likely. Local news outlets use the AP wire story which concentrates on the 50 year absence,of factory entrants without making this clear This degrades the achievements of all those privateers who who won numerous class titles for Ferrari over the years. And of course Chinetti and NART were prime examples.Today's victory is a fitting continuation of the winning  record, and a return to the mark of  Rindt and Gregory, set 58 years ago.

 

Exactly this.

Would it not be for the work AF Corse and Michelotto done throughout the years with the GT's, since the 2000s, this victory would not exist. And further thanks to Prodrive, who set the ball rolling in showing that a Ferrari could win in the top category of GT racing at Le Mans and well beyond. 

[68targa]

How I'd love to see a WEC race at Silverstone (or Brands Hatch) but it isn't  possible. There is  Le Mans, Fuji , Monza, Sebring  and Spa - of course. Portimao, not so much  . And who knew Bahrain - yes, bloody  Bahrain-  had such a rich heritage  of motorsport that it now gets its very own 8hour race ... Words fail me  

 

 You'll be pleased to know that another circuit rich in motorsport history will be added for 2024 - Qatar   

 

 Silverstone and Brands are always going to be outbid by countries who don't care one iota about the sport. 

[john aston]

Of course many have flown the Prancing Horse flag ,but not in cars that could win.The achievement here is extraordinary and momentous. I am now 70 and I was still at school when Ferrari were last serious contenders , and then against effectively against only other model - the 917 . This year there was serious competition from - count 'em ! - Porsche , Toyota , Cadillac and Peugeot , as well as the smaller concerns like Glickenhaus. 

 

It was bloody fantastic .  

[Arjan de Roos]

57 years, longest spell between wins by a Manufacturer. If we do not include Bentley's yet I am led to believe this was in fact an Audi. Great race! To go back on topic, the 24 hours does suffer from limited statistics to be provided. I checked the 1973 race to see that Ferrari led 17 of the 24 hours (mind you if Art had won, how would his career have looked like ...?). Yet these are just the hourly standings.

 

On another note also class winners are hard to find. NL Eurosport had several Dutch drivers who actually participated 'au Mans' and gave some good insights from a driver point of view. Yet the (pro!) commentators only knew the outright winners, and then class winners from 94ish. Overlooking Gatsonides as well as De Beaufort's class wins.

[jcbc3]

... I am led to believe this was in fact an Audi. ....

 

You are led wrongly. I made the same mistake once.

 

https://forums.autos...port/?p=2528887

[Arjan de Roos]

You are right and I was at Le Mans when Audi brought Spyder and Coupe, choosing a Spyder, with Bentey later appearing a Coupe, making me conclude it was the same car. Just to close: nowadays the racing and sports car industry is so entwined, and badging is all over the place... Dallara? Yet Enzo will have smiled downwards through the clouds for this seemingly near full-Italian effort. Or was the engine a Porsche?

[john winfield]

Of course many have flown the Prancing Horse flag ,but not in cars that could win.The achievement here is extraordinary and momentous. I am now 70 and I was still at school when Ferrari were last serious contenders , and then against effectively against only other model - the 917 . This year there was serious competition from - count 'em ! - Porsche , Toyota , Cadillac and Peugeot , as well as the smaller concerns like Glickenhaus. 

 

It was bloody fantastic .  

Yes, very pleased by the race and result.

 

I was just thinking back to those final years of works Ferrari involvement in the endurance championship and/or Le Mans. 

 

1970 was the year in which the 917 outclassed the 512 in the championship, and Porsche also won Le Mans with the Salzburg car.

For the 1971 season Ferrari abandoned the 512 and committed to the 312P prior to the 1972 3-litre limit. Ickx and Regazzoni led so often throughout 1971, but won nothing, Ferrari didn't bother with Le Mans, leaving it to the 512 'privateers': NART, Penske, Piper, Filipinetti etc. And Porsche won again.

In 1972 the championship season could have been gripping, but Matra chose not to participate, concentrating on their home race. And what should have been a thriller at Le Mans turned into a Matra procession when Ferrari withdrew at the last minute, claiming that their flat-12s wouldn't last the twenty four hours.

Finally, in 1973, Ferrari really did challenge for an outright win. All three works 312PBs led and, with ninety minutes to go, the Ickx/Redman car looked a likely winner, but the engine broke, leaving victory to Pescarolo/Larrousse.  The Merzario/Pace Ferrari at least came in second, a minor miracle really as this car was thrashed from the start as Arturo set off from pole as Maranello's hare, trying to break the Matras. 

Edited by john winfield, 12 June 2023 - 12:42.

[P.Dron]

I watched some absolutely mesmerising footage on YouTube early this  morning , the in car feed from one of the Ferraris. I was apparently driving on empty country roads with the odd piece of Armco visible. No other car in sight for a long time , 330km/h down the Mulsanne , slower car ahead eventually, the sort of car (a 911 ) which would annihilate everything you'd normally encounter on the road . Blam - overtaken in a heartbeat . 

 

And more in car stuff , the camera focussed on the driver of a Glickenhaus during a long pit stop. Thousand yard stare, he looked exhausted . Then engine fired up, back to work at 3 miles a minute. 

 

It helps that I'm half way through my review of Richard Williams book but I am smitten with Le Mans , which seems more exciting than any time since the 917/512 era . 

 

How I'd love to see a WEC race at Silverstone (or Brands Hatch) but it isn't  possible. There is  Le Mans, Fuji , Monza, Sebring  and Spa - of course. Portimao, not so much  . And who knew Bahrain - yes, bloody  Bahrain-  had such a rich heritage  of motorsport that it now gets its very own 8hour race ... Words fail me  

 

Re the Richard Williams centenary book, is the photo/caption error that appeared in The Observer/The Guardian online editions in there - suggesting that it is a photo from the first race in 1923, whereas it is obviously from 1930? 

 

https://shorturl.at/jwAK9

Edited by P.Dron, 12 June 2023 - 13:27.

[john aston]

When it comes to pre war stuff, sorry , but I am not the man to take an informed view . 

[P.Dron]

When it comes to pre war stuff, sorry , but I am not the man to take an informed view . 

 

The Bentley in the heading photo is a 4.5-litre "Blower". They raced at Le Mans only in 1930. What I want to know is whether the photo and caption appear in the book. 

[Kpy]

The photo and caption do mnot appear in Richard Williams' book

[P.Dron]

The photo and caption do not appear in Richard Williams' book

 

Well, that has saved him some embarrassment!

[404KF2]

Yes, very pleased by the race and result.

 

I was just thinking back to those final years of works Ferrari involvement in the endurance championship and/or Le Mans. 

 

1970 was the year in which the 917 outclassed the 512 in the championship, and Porsche also won Le Mans with the Salzburg car.

 

I was at Spa in May 1970 for the 1000 km and it was mind blowingly good. Only 10 years old at the time, and my first race.

[rwilliams1947]

Thanks to P. Dron for alerting me to the choice of picture and its erroneous caption in the Guardian's online version of the extract from my book. Neither the photo nor the caption are in the book. I hadn't seen it. It was the Guardian's choice and I've asked them to correct it online.

 

(The error that does exist in the photo captions of 24 Hours: 100 Years of Le Mans, gently pointed out to me by DCN, is that the pic of Briggs Cunnington and Phil Walters posing with Le Monstre at the end of the pits straight was taken after the race in 1950, not before the start. My mistake.)

[P.Dron]

Thanks to P. Dron for alerting me to the choice of picture and its erroneous caption in the Guardian's online version of the extract from my book. Neither the photo nor the caption are in the book. I hadn't seen it. It was the Guardian's choice and I've asked them to correct it online.

 

(The error that does exist in the photo captions of 24 Hours: 100 Years of Le Mans, gently pointed out to me by DCN, is that the pic of Briggs Cunnington and Phil Walters posing with Le Monstre at the end of the pits straight was taken after the race in 1950, not before the start. My mistake.)

 

Good news. By the way, I wrote the obituary of Amherst Villiers for The Independent. Ah, and that would be Cunningham, not the more amusing Cunnington!

[rwilliams1947]

Cunningham! That's what comes of spending 20 years at the Grauniad...

[10kDA]

Now I'm curious about the annoying commentary team. I don't do streaming etc of any sort so I don't know who was calling the race on the US feed. Anyway, I was at an airport with a pretty girl most of Saturday and with a different pretty girl Sunday morning so the race was of secondary importance. Throwing out a WAG in question form: Was it Diffey, Hinchcliffe, and Bell?

[D-Type]

Now I'm curious about the annoying commentary team. I don't do streaming etc of any sort so I don't know who was calling the race on the US feed. Anyway, I was at an airport with a pretty girl most of Saturday and with a different pretty girl Sunday morning so the race was of secondary importance. Throwing out a WAG in question form: Was it Diffey, Hinchcliffe, and Bell?

Well, someone has his priorities right.  But two girls in one weekend . . . 

[Arjan de Roos]

Well, someone has his priorities right.  But two girls in one weekend . . . 

He must be Enzo...

[LittleChris]

He must be Enzo...

 

Or Little Art