41 replies to this topic

[Disgrace]

From an exchange during the Le Mans race thread:
 

Diffey mentioning the flying Merc, a good reminder of why they will never be back. That shame will not wash off.

BMW and Porsche flipped too. I refuse to believe Merc won't look at Le Mans. I hope Hamilton makes them go.

If they came back after 1955, which was something to really be ashamed of, they can come back again.

 

Yeah, it will be too tempting for some Mercedes chief one day to make it their mission to redeem their brand at Le Mans.

To preface, F1 is evidently working just fine for Mercedes for the moment, so I don't expect any immediate change of heart. But these things are always cyclical.

 

If Mercedes did return to Le Mans and won it overall, that is surely the redemption story of all redemption stories. Probably even more so than Ferrari's triumphant return.

 

Could a "golden age" of manufacturer involvement for overall honours tempt Mercedes back to Le Mans in the years to come? I think and hope so. Or is the risk too great for the brand?

[Risil]

I think it'll happen. Memories fade and disasters lose their superstitious charge.

I think (hope) Mercedes PR will steer well clear of a "redemption" story though. With any luck they'll put Lewis and Max in the same car.

[SCUDmissile]

Have they not already come back and won it?

[Stephane]

Yeah, but they still flipped their cars 10 years later.

[ARTGP]

They might be in the GT class next year. 

Edited by ARTGP, 14 June 2023 - 21:09.

[FLB]

They might be in the GT class next year. 

Fully expecting it, with a team like Akkodis ASP.

[JHSingo]

The trouble is, the second they did announce they were racing at Le Mans, everybody would start talking about Le Mans '55/Dumbreck's crash and Merc's "curse"/hoodoo at that race again. 

 

I suppose the only way to stop that narrative is to go there and actually win the thing. But I can't imagine it's at the top of their priorities, although it'd be cool to see them take on a new challenge. The flying CLR incidents are nearly a quarter of a century ago now. Time flies...almost as well as that car did. 

Edited by JHSingo, 14 June 2023 - 23:09.

[George Costanza]

Have they not already come back and won it?

Sauber Mercedes in 1989.

[George Costanza]

Mercedes already won Le Mans with Sauber.

Will they come back? I think anything is possible.

Edited by George Costanza, 14 June 2023 - 23:54.

[Victor_RO]

They might be in the GT class next year. 

 

Considering the size of the customer base for the AMG GT3, there is no "might", IMO they'll 100% have 2 cars in GT3 next year. Top class though? Completely different story.

[JG]

Will they (Mercedes) ever leave F1 as a team? 

[Henri Greuter]

Ignored is another `take off" incident for Mercedes:  

 

There had been an earlier take-off than in 1999, yet later than 1955

1985 with a Sauber Mercedes, driven by John Nielsen that flipped during practice.  (30 years on....)   Le Mans 1985 John Nielsen Flips - YouTube

 

Then:  1988 the Sauber team had to withdraw the cars after blow-outs from their tires which they could not explain properly and of which a repeat for unknown reasons was still possible.

That decision was questioned at the time by some, just like what would happen 11 years on when they did exactly the opposite.

 

 

Anyway, Maybe some GT3 program could result into Mercedes back at Le Mans in some kind of manner. But I doubt that with their record that the factory can be persuaded into a hypercar project.

[Ali_G]

Mercedes already won Le Mans with Sauber.

Will they come back? I think anything is possible.

Not a full works effort given Sauber built the chassis. I’d say the same thing about Ferrari if a 333SP had won given it was build by Dallara.

[Beri]

Two seperate programs, F1 and WEC, for Mercedes? Would be a lot of investment. Something that even Ferrari didnt do. AF Corse runs the entry of the 499P. But a similar setup with Mercedes designing and building the WEC car and another team running it, would be something I can see happening. It would make for a different victory than with Sauber. A more true Mercedes victory, should that occur. But I cant see Mercedes joining as a complete new team with a new car as a complete programme.

[ArnageWRC]

As others have said they'll likely be there next year in the GT3 class - which team runs them will be interesting. 

 

And they were part of the 1989 Sauber winning car, and in 'Silver Arrows' livery - so were involved more than just an engine partner. Similar to Penske Porsche.

 

However if they returned to the WEC top class who runs the programme, and which drivers get the gig? There's plenty of choice, and I'm not including current F1 drivers.

[Victor_RO]

However if they returned to the WEC top class who runs the programme, and which drivers get the gig? There's plenty of choice, and I'm not including current F1 drivers.

 

If they (hypothetically) suddenly came back with a car in Hypercar for 2024, I'd already see 3 guaranteed drivers: Raffaele Marciello, Maro Engel and Jules Gounon. Ferrari promoted internally from their GT squad to visibly great results (Calado and Pier Guidi in the LM-winning car, Antonio Fuoco the current fastest driver in the 499P), any manufacturer with a good crop of works drivers in GT would do well to follow that kind of pattern.

 

They're not coming back, so there are rumours of Marciello looking around so that he could find himself in a Hypercar seat further down the line.

[FLB]

If they (hypothetically) suddenly came back with a car in Hypercar for 2024, I'd already see 3 guaranteed drivers: Raffaele Marciello, Maro Engel and Jules Gounon. Ferrari promoted internally from their GT squad to visibly great results (Calado and Pier Guidi in the LM-winning car, Antonio Fuoco the current fastest driver in the 499P), any manufacturer with a good crop of works drivers in GT would do well to follow that kind of pattern.

 

They're not coming back, so there are rumours of Marciello looking around so that he could find himself in a Hypercar seat further down the line.

That's why I think the fact that Fred Lequien (LMEM) said the GT3 cars wouldn't necessarily only be open for Hypercar manufacturers was a way to keep the door open for McLaren, Aston and them.

 

Even if Lello is looking around, they still have other drivers who would fit in a GT3LM program (Grenier, Juncadella, Auer, etc.).

Edited by FLB, 15 June 2023 - 10:00.

[ARTGP]

If they (hypothetically) suddenly came back with a car in Hypercar for 2024, I'd already see 3 guaranteed drivers: Raffaele Marciello, Maro Engel and Jules Gounon. 

 

 

Maybe Mick Schumacher? That would be popular.

Edited by ARTGP, 15 June 2023 - 10:14.

[JHSingo]

Will they (Mercedes) ever leave F1 as a team? 

 

Considering the budget cap, it's not essential for them to leave F1 in order to race at Le Mans.

 

I mean, that's a big part of why Ferrari returned. Less money to spend on F1 = more money available to spend on something else. 

[Victor_RO]

Maybe Mick Schumacher? That would be popular.

 

I'm just going by their best drivers in GT right now, top GT drivers have been making the transition to prototypes very well in recent times if promoted internally.

[Beri]

I'm just going by their best drivers in GT right now, top GT drivers have been making the transition to prototypes very well in recent times if promoted internally.

One just won Le Mans. So there is merit to your logic. But to be fair; of the mentioned names by you, I doubt if they would make that transition smoothly too.

[Stephane]

Marciello no doubt, he was a beast in open wheels.

The other too, I don't think they'd have a problem.

[Victor_RO]

One just won Le Mans. So there is merit to your logic. But to be fair; of the mentioned names by you, I doubt if they would make that transition smoothly too.

 

5 out of Ferrari's 6 drivers in the 499P were internal promotions from GT, Giovinazzi was the only odd one out (and he was still associated with Ferrari anyway). Majority of Porsche's Hypercar drivers are also promoted directly from their GT ranks last year (I count 5 out of the 9 at Le Mans this year: Estre, Vanthoor, Christensen, Makowiecki and Jaminet). This suggests to me that if the drivers are willing to put in the effort, the transition is not just eminently possible, but a desirable career path. That's why I'd think a brand with a good selection of fast and skilled GT drivers will look through that roster and promote internally before looking at anyone else outside the "family".

[Spillage]

I doubt many people who aren't acutely interested in motor racing are even aware of their flying cars in the 1990s. I'm sure they'll return at some point, especially if they aren't doing so well in F1.

[Nathan]

Not a full works effort given Sauber built the chassis. I’d say the same thing about Ferrari if a 333SP had won given it was build by Dallara.

 

So scratch off Audi's wins then?  Current Porsche project isn't works? Dallara just won Le Mans?

[Ali_G]

So scratch off Audi's wins then? Current Porsche project isn't works? Dallara just won Le Mans?

An excellent point. I guess the question is what is a works entry?

[juicy sushi]

I think a works entry is something paid for and run under the manufacturer's name, with outside suppliers being firmly held behind the curtain as partners.  The Ferrari is a works entry.  The Porsches are emphatically works entries, as are the Peugeots, Cadillacs, Acuras, BMWs, and next year's Lamborghinis and Renaults.

 

If Jota had won, it would have been a non-works entry, as they bought the car from Porsche, but are not actually controlled by Porsche.

[juicy sushi]

I also really don't think Mercedes will ever come back to Le Mans in the top class.  Those who know, remember, and hang that shame on them.  Those who don't, also don't watch sports car racing to begin with, and so there's no point in entering when the F1 program is there for that purpose.

 

They were central to a tragedy, and left.  They came back with humility, took a cautious approach, and then were rewarded with a win.  They then came back in arrogance later on, and the racing gods punished them for that.  I think Mercedes took the hint.

[FLB]

Not a full works effort given Sauber built the chassis. I’d say the same thing about Ferrari if a 333SP had won given it was build by Dallara.

This was/is nothing new for Ferrari. Carrozzeria Scaglietti did a lot of work for Enzo Ferrari: https://en.wikipedia...eria_Scaglietti

[George Costanza]

I think a works entry is something paid for and run under the manufacturer's name, with outside suppliers being firmly held behind the curtain as partners. The Ferrari is a works entry. The Porsches are emphatically works entries, as are the Peugeots, Cadillacs, Acuras, BMWs, and next year's Lamborghinis and Renaults.

If Jota had won, it would have been a non-works entry, as they bought the car from Porsche, but are not actually controlled by Porsche.

If Jota won, it would still be classified as Porsche win of course.

[George Costanza]

Not a full works effort given Sauber built the chassis. I’d say the same thing about Ferrari if a 333SP had won given it was build by Dallara.

Full works doesn't just have to be confined to chassis.

Edited by George Costanza, 15 June 2023 - 17:39.

[noikeee]

"Ever" is a very long time.

Soon though? Seems unlikely

[Stephane]

If Jota won, it would still be classified as Porsche win of course.

 

A Porsche Manufacturer win, yes, a Porsche Entry win, no.

 

But whatever, this is only a statistical nerd thing.

[jcbc3]

Well you can look at Joest's two wins with the 956 and 962. Definitely Porsche cars but not manufacturer entries.

[ARTGP]

Porsche was tweeting about the Jota car during the race as if it were one…

Edited by ARTGP, 15 June 2023 - 19:31.

[juicy sushi]

If Jota won, it would still be classified as Porsche win of course.

Porsche would be the winning manufacturer, yes, but not via a works team.  Jota bought the car and run it themselves.

[juicy sushi]

Porsche was tweeting about the Jota car during the race as if it were one…

Any good PR/Comms team would.  You make hay while the sun shines.

[drionita]

Always thought Merc is for Le Mans a kind of Ulysses saling toward an Ithaca that gods won't allow to win any soon.

[PayasYouRace]

They have won it one and a half times before. I’m sure they’re perfectly capable of building a car that will stay on the ground and be competitive.

[Disgrace]

That didn't take long...

 

Mercedes will return to the Le Mans 24 Hours for the first time since 1999 as part of a World Endurance Championship campaign with the Iron Lynx team. The German manufacturer will enter the WEC for the first time in the LMGT3 class with the successful Mercedes-AMG GT3, a winner of the 24-hour classics at Spa and Nurburgring. That will give Mercedes a spot on the Le Mans grid, 26 years after its last entry with the CLR LM-GTP racer.

 

Next step... hypercar?

[PayasYouRace]

Come on Mercedes. We know you really want to.

[Beri]

At least we do