51 replies to this topic

[JordanIreland]

Given the smaller form factor of modern digital cameras, it seems as if they are not really utilised on current F1 cars?

Some comments:

The overhead camera could definitely be centralised.

Would be nice to see what the drives actually see in their mirrors. Both mirrors.

The cameras built into the driver’s helmet, could have two cameras (one left and one right) looking forward and then stitch the two feeds into one image to give a much better drivers view.

In 1995 there used to be cameras on the front and ring wings. They gave a great sensation of speed.

There was great tyre temperature images 10 years ago. Would love to see them back.

Cameras looking at the drivers hands (changing gears etc) and feet.

A camera looking at the drivers face. I appreciate lighting is an issue, but it’s definitely possible.

Does anyone have camera angle/position preferences?

[jAnO76]

Kmag’s seat, Hulk’s balls

[pdac]

Call me old fashioned, but I'm interested in seeing the cars racing. I don't need the drivers view or the cars view (other than to see the replay of what went on in an incident in front). Lets have less closed slots and more wide-angle ones.

[SenorSjon]

Y-joint of the halo.

[loki]

The tech used in the in car cams is quite a bit more advanced than what’s on the consumer market.  All of what you posted is possible and used in other forms of motorsport including Indycar and Nascar.  In fact Nascar helped pioneer in car cams before any other big sanction.  Some of the positioning is a weight placement issue.  Even though they’re relatively light teams may not want cams in a particular spot.   There is great face cam shot when Kirkwood flipped at the Indy 500 this year. Scary but fascinating.

 

A limiting factor could be the spectrum bandwidth required for the transmission.  It’s come a long way from when they were uplinked to the helo to what’s now a technology more similar to mobile phones.  There is a finite amount of data for any particular system that could limit the number of shots but not the placement.  It’s not insurmountable to get more cams but it all comes down to money.

 

Here's a bit of the history regarding in car cams. Hopefully the paywall is down.

https://theathletic....-camera-nascar/

[PlatenGlass]

The helmet cameras are just a gimmick. They just give you a bad view. People are like "Ooh but this is what the drivers are seeing." But actually their experience would be nothing like the jerky mess we are seeing. Stick a camera on your head and go about your day. Then watch it back. Large parts will be unwatchable.

[loki]

Visor cams are the best representation of what the driver sees compared to the other cams.  It can’t get the nuances like eye movement but from a point of view it's the closest so far.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

If the camera placement and weight was mandated and the same for all teams I can’t see why any weight issues would be a problem, as it’s the same for all teams.

[Stephane]

Visor cams are the best representation of what the driver sees compared to the other cams. It can’t get the nuances like eye movement but from a point of view it's the closest so far.

Yeah, but it doesn't add much to the viewing experience. It's just shaky with lens flare galore.
It might be close to the driver's view but we can't see much.

[Beri]

Given the smaller form factor of modern digital cameras, it seems as if they are not really utilised on current F1 cars?
Some comments:
The overhead camera could definitely be centralised.
Would be nice to see what the drives actually see in their mirrors. Both mirrors.
The cameras built into the driver’s helmet, could have two cameras (one left and one right) looking forward and then stitch the two feeds into one image to give a much better drivers view.
In 1995 there used to be cameras on the front and ring wings. They gave a great sensation of speed.
There was great tyre temperature images 10 years ago. Would love to see them back.
Cameras looking at the drivers hands (changing gears etc) and feet.
A camera looking at the drivers face. I appreciate lighting is an issue, but it’s definitely possible.
Does anyone have camera angle/position preferences?

Stitching helmet camera images together isn't necessary. Some time ago camera glasses were tested out where the lens sat perfectly smack down in the middle between the eyes.



This idea was scrapped. But it does offer a possibility where helmet manufacturers could perhaps create a lens at that position. Back in the olden days there even were split visors. (Yes I know it's obstructing the view)



Of take a Simpson Bandit (like De Angelis wore) and raise the nose part up to add a camera there



All I want to say; there are solutions to the current utterly hopeless camera position.

[JordanIreland]

Kmag’s seat, Hulk’s balls

Haha 😂

[JordanIreland]

Call me old fashioned, but I'm interested in seeing the cars racing. I don't need the drivers view or the cars view (other than to see the replay of what went on in an incident in front). Lets have less closed slots and more wide-angle ones.

For 95% for sure, let’s see the racing, but at times, those closed shots add a lot.

I still remember the close up of Nico Rosberg face (relatively close) in 2014, final race and he lost engine power. You could hear the pain in his voice and the bit of his face that we did see but added more to the overall moment.

[JordanIreland]

Y-joint of the halo.

🙌🏻🙌🏻

[JordanIreland]

The tech used in the in car cams is quite a bit more advanced than what’s on the consumer market. All of what you posted is possible and used in other forms of motorsport including Indycar and Nascar. In fact Nascar helped pioneer in car cams before any other big sanction. Some of the positioning is a weight placement issue. Even though they’re relatively light teams may not want cams in a particular spot. There is great face cam shot when Kirkwood flipped at the Indy 500 this year. Scary but fascinating.

A limiting factor could be the spectrum bandwidth required for the transmission. It’s come a long way from when they were uplinked to the helo to what’s now a technology more similar to mobile phones. There is a finite amount of data for any particular system that could limit the number of shots but not the placement. It’s not insurmountable to get more cams but it all comes down to money.

Here's a bit of the history regarding in car cams. Hopefully the paywall is down.
https://theathletic....-camera-nascar/

Very good points. I’d love to know what’s the limit on bandwidth or if the limit is just a financial ROI limit.

I think it was 1995 when they experimented a lot with different cameras. I’d love to see more of that if possible.

[JordanIreland]

The helmet cameras are just a gimmick. They just give you a bad view. People are like "Ooh but this is what the drivers are seeing." But actually their experience would be nothing like the jerky mess we are seeing. Stick a camera on your head and go about your day. Then watch it back. Large parts will be unwatchable.

I’ve only ever seen the f1 helmet cams. They are poor quality and only on one side. It’s difficult to watch.

If it was possible to get higher video resolution and a better divers eye view… it would enhance it a lot.

But I’m sure the cost to make this happen would be too high to justify.

It’s better to drop the current tech…. As it’s painful.

[JordanIreland]

Visor cams are the best representation of what the driver sees compared to the other cams. It can’t get the nuances like eye movement but from a point of view it's the closest so far.

If they could improve the resolution and start stitch in real-time 2-3 inbuilt cameras it would give a much better sensation.

[JordanIreland]

If the camera placement and weight was mandated and the same for all teams I can’t see why any weight issues would be a problem, as it’s the same for all teams.

Agreed !!!!

[JordanIreland]

Stitching helmet camera images together isn't necessary. Some time ago camera glasses were tested out where the lens sat perfectly smack down in the middle between the eyes.



This idea was scrapped. But it does offer a possibility where helmet manufacturers could perhaps create a lens at that position. Back in the olden days there even were split visors. (Yes I know it's obstructing the view)



Of take a Simpson Bandit (like De Angelis wore) and raise the nose part up to add a camera there



All I want to say; there are solutions to the current utterly hopeless camera position.

The central sensor is an elegant solution.

The only added value i can think of is the the two sensors on either side is that it might give a near human field of view? The for sure the central sensor would be a lot easier to implement.

It’s annoying how the commentators say how amazing the visor cams are amazing, they’re not, in its current setup, it’s pure rubbish haha but maybe they are experimenting and will evolve from there..

[kumo7]

Road cars already have full angle view, for those who are not able to drive a car in a back gear and for those who are not too good at parking. This full angle view are generated out of serval cameras mounted on one car. Obviously F1 can do a lot better than this.

[Beri]

If the camera placement and weight was mandated and the same for all teams I can’t see why any weight issues would be a problem, as it’s the same for all teams.

Well they were. And are. There used to be camera dummies that were dummies for the teams who didn't use the cameras. The dummies were in the same shape and weight as a camera. For instance let's say in 1997, when not all the cars had cameras on them, there was a rear wing mounted cameras, the one on the roll bar, the one over the drivers shoulder, the one in between the front suspension. All those positions were fixed points where there either was a camera, or a dummy.
Nowadays all the cars have the same cameras, so there is no need for this anymore.

[JordanIreland]

Road cars already have full angle view, for those who are not able to drive a car in a back gear and for those who are not too good at parking. This full angle view are generated out of serval cameras mounted on one car. Obviously F1 can do a lot better than this.

It would be cool to have it in F1.

[jAnO76]

I like the 360 cams in Indy

[Deeq]

Call me old fashioned, but I'm interested in seeing the cars racing. I don't need the drivers view or the cars view (other than to see the replay of what went on in an incident in front). Lets have less closed slots and more wide-angle ones.

What he said...and please ban the helmetcam. I hate it with passion 🤬

Yeah, but it doesn't add much to the viewing experience. It's just shaky with lens flare galore.
It might be close to the driver's view but we can't see much.

Exactly, infact it does take from the viewing experience by monopolising a rare real state...PLC are no more, so its zero sum game.

Edited by Deeq, 18 June 2023 - 16:07.

[kumo7]

I like the 360 cams in Indy

If it could choose where to watch swiftly.

[RacingFan10]

Helmet cams are terrible. The images are a shaky mess

Edited by RacingFan10, 18 June 2023 - 17:06.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Helmet cams are terrible. The images are a shaky mess

 

I enjoy them for what they are. Do they give you a good idea of what the car is doing? Of course not. But a 10-20 second cut to a helmet cam is brilliant to immerse you.

[MattK9]

I like the 360 cams in Indy

I hate the 360 cams in Indy. I much prefer just seeing straight ahead in almost every situation.

[ClubmanGT]

I hate the 360 cams in Indy. I much prefer just seeing straight ahead in almost every situation.

 

The worst thing about the Supercars hamburger cam used to be the spinning - totally destroyed your sensation and sense of space and who was where in relation to who if the camera is doing a meatspin. 

[F1 Mike]

I'm actually amazed at how much criticism the onboard cameras are getting here. They're the best they've ever been and will improve still over the years ahead.

They tried a central camera in the helmet just below the visor many years ago and the view was too low so wasn't used again.

Driver safety regarding equipment installed within the helmet is obviously the most important thing.

On a similar point regarding safety, the main camera units will have a bit of weight about them. The front and rear wing mounted cameras proved to be unsafe and on one occasion caused a Ferrari retirement. Just luck that it didn't hit the driver which could cause injury.
Front and rear wings are likely parts of the car to become damaged, so it makes sense to avoid adding cameras to these parts. Having cameras on the nosebox is a good compromise and they work well.

[TheFish]

Why does Hamilton's helmet always look green on the T-cam? Always messes with my head.

[CoolBreeze]

There's much bigger issues in F1 than cameras right now. 

[OO7]

The shoulder cams used in MotoGP are absolutely brilliant.  They're stabilised so you don't get the effect of trying to perform single leg yoga poses atop a blancmange.

Edited by OO7, 26 June 2023 - 21:00.

[JordanIreland]

Just saw the highlights of F1 Academy and the overhead camera is centred. Why can’t F1 do this? I fully appreciate there is a cost, but a centred video feed is the basic we should expect?

[JordanIreland]

Stitching helmet camera images together isn't necessary. Some time ago camera glasses were tested out where the lens sat perfectly smack down in the middle between the eyes.



This idea was scrapped. But it does offer a possibility where helmet manufacturers could perhaps create a lens at that position. Back in the olden days there even were split visors. (Yes I know it's obstructing the view)



Of take a Simpson Bandit (like De Angelis wore) and raise the nose part up to add a camera there



All I want to say; there are solutions to the current utterly hopeless camera position.

Was looking into this, one issue might be the wide angle perspective. It might be off putting: https://www.adobe.co... of your frame.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I don’t understand the fuss about slightly off-centred cameras, there’s a reason for them which has been well discussed.

[JordanIreland]

I don’t understand the fuss about slightly off-centred cameras, there’s a reason for them which has been well discussed.

For me at least it comes across as amateurish. It’s 2023, keeping the image central would make it look a lot more pleasing and the graphics would also align better.

The reasons given as to why it’s off centre are logical, but in this day and age, are a poor excuse. A solution can easily be found.

But it’s not the end of the world in it’s current format.

[RacingGreen]

Y-joint of the halo.

 

or get rid of the halo and we'd all have a better view anyway.

[RekF1]

I think 3D capture is the end game. Preferably VR headset based. Imagine picking your favourite grandstand. Your favourite driver, etc.

I was thinking with all the people who have their smartphone on track recording the race it might be possible to sync it and make a 3D image.

I'm not stoned before you ask. 3D capture is legit.

[Roadhouse]

or get rid of the halo and we'd all have a better view anyway.

 

Stupid Halo, without it we would've gotten a front row seat to a classic French decapitation.

[loki]

I think 3D capture is the end game. Preferably VR headset based. Imagine picking your favourite grandstand. Your favourite driver, etc.

I was thinking with all the people who have their smartphone on track recording the race it might be possible to sync it and make a 3D image.

I'm not stoned before you ask. 3D capture is legit.

VR/3D is an incredibly niche market.  Lot’s of press and hype but comparatively few adopters.  With current cellular technology there isn't a solution with enough bandwidth to accommodate that many high bandwidth users in that density.  Image still has a ways to go before it can scale real time like that.

[JordanIreland]

Really love this tilt camera on the Mercedes in Japan today: https://youtu.be/38K...Spcw3WjcL3VbNtN

It could be moved into a better location to give a better sensation.

But it’s really nice and more immersive to sense the camber on the track.

I believe MotoGP has had this for a longtime. Glad F1 is exploring it.

[potmotr]

Will Buxton talking about the new camera here: https://www.instagra...zZhOTFlYzFmZQ==

[ARTGP]

It's quite unnatural imo. The car doesn't lean like that. What I would like is to be able to choose the camera view in F1TV. 

Edited by ARTGP, 22 September 2023 - 20:25.

[Jerem]

Really love this tilt camera on the Mercedes in Japan today: https://youtu.be/38K...Spcw3WjcL3VbNtN

It could be moved into a better location to give a better sensation.

But it’s really nice and more immersive to sense the camber on the track.

I believe MotoGP has had this for a longtime. Glad F1 is exploring it.

Yeah the sensation of speed is good, despite the lack of shaking. Too bad half of the image is taken by the HALO.

[Victor]

IMO, there should be a camera placed in front of the Hallo. I would also like the top camera to rotate during overtaking.

[Carsey]

They need to stick a insta360 camera on the top.   I believe they have something similar in the front cockpit?  I do vaguely remember seeing the camera footage from the big Silverstone 21 crash.

 

Even a increase in the quality above 1080p in F1TV would be nice.

 

With the new camera....not really a fan,  especially the way it tilts.  Seems un-realistic.   If thats how much it tilts in Suzuki,  the thing would require a new gyro if it went round the Zandvoort banking!

[azza200]

Really love this tilt camera on the Mercedes in Japan today: https://youtu.be/38K...Spcw3WjcL3VbNtN

It could be moved into a better location to give a better sensation.

But it’s really nice and more immersive to sense the camber on the track.

I believe MotoGP has had this for a longtime. Glad F1 is exploring it.

 

That camera angle is more reminiscent of the ones they used a lot during 90's higher angle but gives the sensation of speed back which has been lacking with modern onboard cameras for decades

 

[JordanIreland]

That camera angle is more reminiscent of the ones they used a lot during 90's higher angle but gives the sensation of speed back which has been lacking with modern onboard cameras for decades

https://www.youtube....h?v=9ESAYRZ5DMc

That is a beautiful angle and has always been one of favourites. If we had this (left) the equivalent on the right and stitch both together in real time. It would be amazing 😻

[JordanIreland]

They need to stick a insta360 camera on the top. I believe they have something similar in the front cockpit? I do vaguely remember seeing the camera footage from the big Silverstone 21 crash.

Even a increase in the quality above 1080p in F1TV would be nice.

With the new camera....not really a fan, especially the way it tilts. Seems un-realistic. If thats how much it tilts in Suzuki, the thing would require a new gyro if it went round the Zandvoort banking!

I love the tilting aspect, but it doesn’t seem to be tuned in correctly. But I hope they use it more and more 🙏🏻🙏🏻

[JordanIreland]

IMO, there should be a camera placed in front of the Hallo. I would also like the top camera to rotate during overtaking.

This would be really immersive and more than welcome 🙌🏻🙌🏻