29 replies to this topic

[TerryS]

Which is the only manufacturer to win Le mans and the F1 Constructors Championship in the same year?

[Ray Bell]

Ferrari have done that...

 

Twice, 1961 and 1964.

[Michael Ferner]

Anyone else tried?

[GazChed]

Matra, who collected a hat-trick of Le Mans victories from 1972-1974 were also competing in Grand Prix racing from the late sixties until 1972.

[Vitesse2]

Anyone else tried?

Well, a privately entered McLaren GTR won Le Mans in 1995 and when the GT40 was winning Le Mans in the late 1960s Ford-badged engines powered the winning F1 constructor in 1968 and 1969. Neither is quite the same thing though.

 

As you imply and GazChed posted while I was typing this, nobody else - apart from Matra - has really tried. And of course the Matra which won the 1969 Constructor's title was Ford Cosworth-powered. Magnificent sounding though it was, that Matra engine was better over long distances than short ones - presumably because it was delivering less power in order to favour endurance rather than outright speed and so was less stressed?

[Ray Bell]

You could say that BRM attempted it in 1963...

[Charlieman]

Perhaps an unfamiliar outfit called Mercedes-Benz until circumstances intervened...

[RCH]

Aston Martin in 1959

[Tim Murray]

Alfa Romeo won at Le Mans between 1931-34. Had there been a Constructors’ Championship in those days, they would certainly have won it in 1932, and probably in 1931 and 1933 too.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Charlieman
Perhaps an unfamiliar outfit called Mercedes-Benz until circumstances intervened...

Tim hit the nail on the head with this...

The Constructors' Championship was inaugurated in 1958.

[Collombin]

You could say that BRM attempted it in 1963...

I thought they weren't eligible to win Le Mans.

[Charlieman]

The Constructors' Championship was inaugurated in 1958.

Doh! Which also excludes Maserati and Lancia from the same period. Presumably ATS in the 1960s aspired.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Collombin
I thought they weren't eligible to win Le Mans.

They weren't, not in 1963...

But they were running for a placing in 1965.

[Collombin]

Which is the only manufacturer to win Le mans and the F1 Constructors Championship in the same year?

What about Brabham in 1967?

[Roger Clark]

Alfa Romeo won at Le Mans between 1931-34. Had there been a Constructors’ Championship in those days, they would certainly have won it in 1932, and probably in 1931 and 1933 too.

There was a constructors' championship in 1932.

[Roger Clark]

Well, a privately entered McLaren GTR won Le Mans in 1995 and when the GT40 was winning Le Mans in the late 1960s Ford-badged engines powered the winning F1 constructor in 1968 and 1969. Neither is quite the same thing though.

 

As you imply and GazChed posted while I was typing this, nobody else - apart from Matra - has really tried. And of course the Matra which won the 1969 Constructor's title was Ford Cosworth-powered. Magnificent sounding though it was, that Matra engine was better over long distances than short ones - presumably because it was delivering less power in order to favour endurance rather than outright speed and so was less stressed?

Porsche designed and built (but didn't badge) the winning F1 engine and won Le Mans in 1984 and 1985. Among those who tried, can we include Williams in 1999? And, but for the lack of an adequate wheel fixing, Lotus in 1962 (the Index of Performance being at least as important as the Grand Prix d'Endurance)?

[Ray Bell]

Roger, I looked at the earlier Manufacturer's Championship details, by whatever name it went...

 

It ended in the late twenties and was replaced by a Driver's Championship.

 

Or did I miss something?

[Roger Clark]

Possibly...

 

http://www.goldenera.fi/cha2.htm

Edited by Roger Clark, 19 June 2023 - 14:15.

[GazChed]

Cooper competed at Le Man's in 1959, their first Constructors Championship year. Lola's Mk4 Formula One cars competed in the 1962 and 1963 World Championships (albeit with Parnell Racing in 1963) with the Mk6GT competing at Le Mans in 1963.

[68targa]

Lotus were constructors champions in 1963 and also won at Le Mans the same year albeit a class win with Team Elite.

[arttidesco]

Anyone else tried?

 

Bugatti ran in the top class at LM in 1931 with three s/c 5 litre Type 50S, all retired, and won two European Championship GPs. 

Edited by arttidesco, 20 June 2023 - 21:40.

[Kaha]

Lancia won the constructor championship in Rally in 1983.

They also made a quite serious attempt at Le Mans (and sports cars racing) with the new group C that year,

Unfortunately, their Ferrari engines were powerful but a bit fragile. (Ferrari also won the F1 construction championship that year)

[Doug Nye]

Raise a glass to the memory of Maserati - who made a seriously committed attempt upon both the Formula 1 and Sports Car World Championship titles in 1957.  Just a pity that the only Formula 1 World Championship that year was for the drivers alone, not the constructors.  The effort, memorably, contributed to the company's virtual collapse...

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 03 August 2023 - 11:54.

[Beri]

Alpine will have a go then. Putting them in a very small list if Im reading your replies correctly.

[sabrejet]

Alpine will have a go then. Putting them in a very small list if Im reading your replies correctly.

 

I do find the Alpine renderings a tad disappointing, looking too much like a mild re-hash of this year's Acura. BMW and Cadillac are good examples of making distinctive cars with a common chassis, so let's hope the final version of the Alpine follows a similar path.

[Doug Nye]

Going on past form Alpine's realistic chance of winning a Formula 1 Constructors' Championship will vary from non-existent to "you have got to be joking...".  Let's hope they surprise.

 

DCN

[Roger Clark]

Raise a glass to the memory of Maserati - who made a seriously committed attempt upon both the Formula 1 and Sports Car World Championship titles in 1957.  Just a pity that the only Formula 1 World Championship that year was for the drivers alone, not the constructors.  The effort, memorably, contributed to the company's virtual collapse...

 

DCN

How much of that effort was spent on the V12 and V8 which they didn't really need?

[D-Type]

How much of that effort was spent on the V12 and V8 which they didn't really need?

I agree about the V12, but I'm not sure about the V8 as they needed more power than the 300S to match the Ferraris (and Jaguars at Le Mans).  Perhaps they could have developed the 6-cylinder 350S further and maybe stretched it a bit more.

[Roger Clark]

At Le Mans that was probably correct but Aston-Martin ran with the leaders with less power than a 300S.  They were helped by the driving of Tony Brooks but Maserati could counter that with Moss, Fangio and Behra.  THe chances of any Maserati finishing Le Mans in the 50s were not good.  I don't know how many made it but I'd be surprised if it was more than none.

 

The 350S was never any good.  The engine was originally taken from a road car but had to be modified quite considerably.  They also built a V12 350S, another distraction.

[opplock]

Going on past form Alpine's realistic chance of winning a Formula 1 Constructors' Championship will vary from non-existent to "you have got to be joking...".  Let's hope they surprise.

 

DCN

 

They are getting serious. Alpine F1 have placed an advert in current edition of Autosport for a "Head of Fan Engagement". Horner and Wolff must be terrified. Who needs team principals and engineers when you have a social media geek on the books?

 

First job is to take Ocon and Gasly to the Dorchester and tell them that the engine department have found another 50bhp on the dyno.