162 replies to this topic

[Gilles126c]

Sky announces new documentary about Gilles & Didier with the families involved to tell the full story about Imola ‘82. Out next year apparently.

Edited by Gilles126c, 05 November 2021 - 21:06.

[404KF2]

Imola 1982 is not something I am too keen to remember.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I doubt anyone alive today has much to add to what sounds like tacky, sensationalist, clickbait TV over a minor moment in motorsport history.

[Catalina Park]

Sky announces new documentary about Gilles & Didier with the families involved to tell the full story about Imola ‘82. Out next year apparently.

Thanks for the warning.

[SKL]

Brings back bad memories but it is quite a story.  I was on a trip to a meeting in Europe right after that happened- picked up an Italian motorsports magazine and was unhappily surprised to see a picture of Gilles in his open casket at his funeral!!!  Still have the issue somewhere but not sure why I kept it.

[D28]

Rather surprised to hear that the project has the support of both families. Joann is quoted positively in the news release and Jacques is also on board. An earlier project on a bio of Gilles failed for lack of such

support. It's hard to imagine what positive message could come from a retelling, but perhaps a younger audience is unfamiliar with the story.  MotorSport has more on the story here:

  

https://www.motorspo...gic-1982-season

Edited by D28, 06 November 2021 - 17:21.

[Rediscoveryx]

Hmm… count me in to the suspicious camp. This one’s way too convoluted for there to be a simple ”this is how it was” type answer. Let’s hope tyat the filmmakers respect that.

[Gilles126c]

Well I was expecting more positive responses, any F1 doc is better than none surely isn’t it ?

It will be 40 years when released so hope they shed some more light on the subject before people involved with these two great drivers are no longer with us.

I was a supporter of both drivers at the time, although obviously Gilles was the faster & F1 has never been the same since for me.

 

Personally I believe the story that Didier won the race as a farewell gift to his other woman who he was seeing before being married the week before the race (since divorced) & thought things could be patched up with Gilles after.

 

This story was told in an interesting book about Pironi called Dreams & nightmares.

 

I doubt this will be discussed though.

Edited by Gilles126c, 06 November 2021 - 09:12.

[garoidb]

It could be interesting as long as there is no reference to the fact that Gilles died two weeks later. That would be the proper context for it.

[Richard Jenkins]

I think it depends on who is involved.

The producer is the same one who did the excellent Finding Jack Charlton documentary which was excellent and immensely moving.

From the blurb below:

The film will be directed by Torquil Jones (14 Peaks: Nothing Is Impossible, Bobby Robson: More Than a Manager), and produced by John McKenna (14 Peaks: Nothing Is Impossible, Finding Jack Charlton) as well as former Formula One driver Mark Webber.

I seem to recall the Robson film being quite good too. I find the focus on the families in particular being an interesting approach, which should make it more measured (perhaps) than if they had gone for say, David Sedgwick. Let's see, I'll likely watch it at least.

[LittleChris]

Didn't realise Mark Webber had any interest in the history of the sport 

[john aston]

The reality is that there have been plenty of races where team mates  A and  B fall out . What makes this particular spat more noteworthy than most is what happened shortly afterwards , then the  post mortem beatification of Villeneuve and the near universal demonisation of Pironi . It seems a perfectly decent subject for a film to me... and not to mention what followed the race would be extraordinary .It's hardly going to be a big surprise for most. 

[Gilles126c]

The reality is that there have been plenty of races where team mates  A and  B fall out . What makes this particular spat more noteworthy than most is what happened shortly afterwards , then the  post mortem beatification of Villeneuve and the near universal demonisation of Pironi . It seems a perfectly decent subject for a film to me... and not to mention what followed the race would be extraordinary .It's hardly going to be a big surprise for most. 

Exactly right..... I think it is actually disrespectful to Villeneuve’s talent & skill to assume he was effected by what happened at Imola two weeks earlier when trying to qualify at Zolder, he always wanted to be the fastest regardless of beating Pironi, he was also on an in lap when he hit Mass as had already done his quickest lap....

 

Also worth mentioning that Gilles had told Nigel Roebuck on Friday night in Zolder that his steering was locking on the very bend that he hit Mass.

 

Niki Lauda was very vocal about Mass moving at the last minute which caused the accident but it seems Pironi has been given all the blame!

[Gilles126c]

Well the documentary has been finished & released in Italy, was aired on Xmas day on Sky IT, apparently will be released in the rest of

 Europe early in the new year.

[jonpollak]

I doubt anyone alive today has much to add to what sounds like tacky, sensationalist, clickbait TV over a minor moment in motorsport history.

Staring Ross Stonefeld in “A Rush to Judgement “
Jp

[E1pix]

Sounds great and I hope to see it!

To those justifiably burned out from fanboy webjunk, have a little faith — there’s still good media talent around.

And of course, one of the featured Ferrari teammates was sublime and always of interest. :-)

[GMiranda]

Hello

 

May I ask if the documentary has already been released, please?

 

Best Regards

[Gilles126c]

Hello

 

May I ask if the documentary has already been released, please?

 

Best Regards

It has been released in Italy but no news yet when it will be released elsewhere, think there is a premier in Scotland any day.

[GMiranda]

It has been released in Italy but no news yet when it will be released elsewhere, think there is a premier in Scotland any day.

Thanks"!!!! I'm eager to see it

[Nanni Dietrich]

It has been released in Italy but no news yet when it will be released elsewhere, think there is a premier in Scotland any day.

 

I've seen the documentary by Sky Tv in Italy, a few days ago.

Well done, great images but few things we already didn't known. The point of view chosen to tell the whole story is definitely Joanna's. Pironi never forgiven.This is the common feeling here in Italy (and perhaps in many other countries all over the World), but I would have expected more balance and a more serene judgement for Pironi's part in the story. During his interventions, Forghieri still appears to be suffering from being missed in the pits that infamous day.

[Gilles126c]

I think if Forghieri had been in the pits that day the result would have been different, I did read that apparently Pironi who got married the week before Imola, told his other woman he would win the race for her as a parting gift!

[GMiranda]

Yes, Forghieri always regretted not being in the pits because the order wasn't correctly clear, and each read the pit signal as they thought it had been arranged before, which led to that sad ending.

[Gilles126c]

documentary about Gilles & Didier Is on Sky documentary Chanel on Sunday 19th March 2023

[chr1s]

I think if Forghieri had been in the pits that day the result would have been different, 

But would it?  Frank Williams was in the pits at Rio in 1981, as was Jean Sage at Ricard in 82" and so too was Christian Horner at Malaysia in 2013, same thing happened though...

[Gilles126c]

Well Forghieri seems to think it would, but who knows. I see the point you are making, as they can’t make a driver do something from the pit lane.
Apparently Villeneuve had shaken hands with Ron Dennis over a deal with Mclaren for 83 if he decided to leave Ferrari, which after Imola seemed highly likely.
Lauda & Villeneuve would have been a great line up.

[garoidb]

Well Forghieri seems to think it would, but who knows. I see the point you are making, as they can’t make a driver do something from the pit lane.
Apparently Villeneuve had shaken hands with Ron Dennis over a deal with Mclaren for 83 if he decided to leave Ferrari, which after Imola seemed highly likely.
Lauda & Villeneuve would have been a great line up.

 

The optimum would be to continue at Ferrari until the end of 83, and then go to McLaren (nicking Watson's seat instead of Prost). The trap to avoid would be the one Tambay fell into, replacing Prost at Renault. Going to McLaren for 83 would have been a holding year, and it is possible he could have suffered Prost's fate in 84 and lost to Lauda on consistency/luck. Even so, being at McLaren from 83 to the end of the 1980s would have been better overall than being at Ferrari.

Edited by garoidb, 16 February 2023 - 11:24.

[AnttiK]

The optimum would be to continue at Ferrari until the end of 83, and then go to McLaren

 

Somehow I don't really see Ron Dennis & Gilles Villeneuve partnership working for too long. I think it would have been a bit similar story than Rosberg's McLaren season in 1986 and he would have been unhappy at McLaren, even with a dominant car.

 

On the other hand, Gilles at Williams could have been awesome. Frank would have loved him and just imagine a Rosberg-Villeneuve line up. That would have been spectacular.



 

[E1pix]

Now imagine Gilles staying alive and teammates to Senna.

[Doug Nye]

Meanwhile...in the real world...  

 

DCN

[E1pix]

Just dreaming a little, Doug, no foul intended.  

[chr1s]

Well Forghieri seems to think it would, but who knows. I see the point you are making, as they can’t make a driver do something from the pit lane.
 

I suppose in as much as that he could have at least given clear instructions, rather than just "hold" or "stay" or whatever its was they showed them!

[piszkosfred]

The documentary is released on different download and to**ent sites.

[DN5]

I saw the documentary and did learn a few things maimly off the track stuff. The biography on Gilles by Gerald Donaldson indicates this was a 'safe' documentary.

[Gilles126c]

I enjoyed this very much, although it didn’t provide much new information.

I didn’t agree with John Watson’s view that by 1982 Pironi was a match for Gilles pace wise, also that Jochen Mass was completely blameless for the accident.

He shouldn’t have moved off line at the very last moment & this was what caused the crash at Zolder.

[chr1s]

I was rather surprised that they didn't interview Mass, after all his role in the incident was just as pivotal as Prost's was in Pironi's case.  

[man]

I enjoyed this very much, although it didn’t provide much new information.
I didn’t agree with John Watson’s view that by 1982 Pironi was a match for Gilles pace wise, also that Jochen Mass was completely blameless for the accident.
He shouldn’t have moved off line at the very last moment & this was what caused the crash at Zolder.

I believe what he was attempting to imply was that the 126C2 was a much better car than the CK and therefore it served as an equaliser to some degree. Nothing new, but interesting to hear from family members and their take on events.

Edited by man, 22 March 2023 - 14:45.

[GMiranda]

I saw it, and I think it had the potential to be released in 2 parts or at least have 120 minutes. It was too many cuts, and it doesn't mention much of the troubled personal lives of the drivers who are well-known by their families and appear in their biographies, so it might be worth noting that, apart from Imola, both were so troubled that the perfect storm was being created.

I agree with John Watson. Pironi hadn't the raw pace of Gilles. Still, he was superbly talented, focused and brilliant, so he knew more of how to fight for a title and save the car when needed, while Gilles was constantly pushing as hard as possible and committed some avoidable mistakes, even if in 1981, he appeared to moderate that instinct quite a bit.

[Gilles126c]

In the first 4 races of 1982 Gilles out qualified Didier each time, in 3 of those races he was more than 1 second quicker (including Imola), he also raced ahead in each one, so there was nothing to suggest Pironi was suddenly a threat in 1982 which was what Wattie was implying.

[GMiranda]

In the first 4 races of 1982 Gilles out qualified Didier each time, in 3 of those races he was more than 1 second quicker (including Imola), he also raced ahead in each one, so there was nothing to suggest Pironi was suddenly a threat in 1982 which was what Wattie was implying.

I believe he would be in terms of race management.

[AnttiK]

I thought it was pretty good! One of the better racing documentaries that I've seen. They had managed to dig out some really good and interesting footage of Pironi in particular. The Pironi sections were really fascinating in general, because I know a lot less about him than about Gilles.

 

Also good use of sound effects and engine sounds were also very well recreated in places. I didn't notice any badly out of synch engine sounds like in the Senna film for example. I could see that the people who produced this documentary had some motorsport knowledge and that always helps.

 

it doesn't mention much of the troubled personal lives of the drivers who are well-known by their families and appear in their biographies

 

I don't think it would have been necessary. It already seemed painful enough for the Villeneuve family members to recollect things for this documentary, and that would have just unnecessarily opened more wounds that didn't really need to be opened for this documentary.

 

My opinion is that the death of Gilles had nothing to do with Pironi, or his marital problems, or whatever. He could have had that same accident in any qualifying session, in any event, or in any season. It was just different random elements coming together all at once and that was it. Gilles died the way he lived, there's no need to bring Pironi into his death. 

 

And there's no need to blame Mass either. That kind of misunderstandings can happen sometimes unfortunately. Berger and Alesi had a similar misunderstanding in Monza in 1993, but thankfully with less serious consequences. But it could have been really bad as well:

https://www.youtube....6d6am7DY&t=117s

[Gilles126c]

Sorry to disagree but I would say Alesi is at fault, just like Mass, lucky the result wasn’t as bad though.

Of course it is not deliberate, but I do remember Niki Lauda blaming Mass at Zolder 82.

[AnttiK]

Sorry to disagree but I would say Alesi is at fault, just like Mass, lucky the result wasn’t as bad though.

Of course it is not deliberate, but I do remember Niki Lauda blaming Mass at Zolder 82.

 

I agree with you. Alesi is at fault because he moves way too late. But still, at the end of the day it's a misunderstanding and nothing intentional. I also now remembered this incident between Hartley and Gasly which was similar as well.

https://www.youtube....h?v=MQwulBUorj8

 

And yeah, I remember Lauda blaming Mass, but I think blaming Mass is quite harsh. And I also remember FISA was not at all happy with Lauda's words and there was some talk that he would have to face disciplinary action. I can't remember anymore if there was any disciplinary action, but yeah, Lauda's words weren't well received at all. Even the Villeneuve family has on multiple occasions stated that they are not blaming Mass for the incident.

 

Mass has to live with that incident for the rest of his life anyway and then for people to come and blame him is a bit much in my opinion. It's a bit similar if someone would blame Ickx for the death of Bellof. 

Edited by AnttiK, 23 March 2023 - 20:30.

[Gilles126c]

 Mass was idling around not paying enough attention, Bellof & Ickx we’re racing, big difference.

[john aston]

It was an accident , a near inevitable consequence of an impetuous driver , qualifying tyres and  a ticking clock  .  In my view it is entirely inappropriate and unfair to blame Mass - or Pironi . As Andretti famously said  - " Unhappily motor racing is also this "

[Gilles126c]

I prefer to go with the opinion of a 3 time WDC called Niki Lauda.

[Steve99]

Lauda was not infallible simply because he won three titles. His opinion is merely that. The overall consensus at the time - I’m assuming you followed F1 back then - was that there was no blame to be laid on Mass. very few disagreed.

[Gilles126c]

It’s too easy to blame the driver who cannot speak for himself.

[potmotr]

I don't visit this particular branch of the forum, and I'm prepared for my comments to be thoroughly shot down, but having been directed here from RC, here's my assessment: 

 

I thought it was a really good documentary, also very stylishly made from a film making perspective, expertly edited and the scoring was spot on. They gathered a really extensive list of people who mattered, and used them well. The only thing I got a little confused by were the many and varied women in Pironi's life who appeared.

 

I knew the basics of the story, but not in the detail offered in the documentary.

 

In fact my perception of the whole Pironi-Villeneuve feud was formed by reading Nigel Roebuck in Autosport in the 90s and 00s. I remember he was relentless in his frequent telling of the betrayal of Imola '82, and the unblemished character of St Gilles. But what occurred to be while watching is that Roebuck, who appears in the doc, was obviously Villeneuve's mate first and foremost. Having watched this and heard the Pironi side of the argument, did the great Roebuck have a bit of a blind spot for objectiveness with this one (legend though he is)? If you were to be an avid ready of Autosport back in the day there could be only one conclusion!  

 

I need to read more into why Jacques Villeneuve had so many problems with his father and considered him so selfish, and the personal turmoil hinted at earlier in this thread. Reading suggestions are welcome! 

 

Also, was the 1982 Ferrari lacking in strength at the front end, was there a design issue? The fronts of the Villeneuve and Pironi cars both appeared to have failed catastrophically in a very similar way.

[Collombin]

The only thing I got a little confused by were the many and varied women in Pironi's life who appeared

Two of the three (or was it four) being called Catherine didn't help. Might have been easier if they were all Catherines to avoid any confusion cf the Monty Python Bruce sketch. The Sedgwick bio helps a bit in this area, but in racing terms adopts a strong pro-Pironi position as an apparently deliberate antidote to the Roebuck stance.

[AJCee]

They were all human and humans are flawed and fallible. Gilles died as a result of motor racing accident. You drive that fast and there are fractions of a second to make up for any misunderstanding if you are lucky.
Personally, I wouldn’t have rated my chances in that accident in any of the cars on the grid in 1982.
It’s sobering to think that Gilles had a similar accident at Fuji in ‘77 but walked away (others didn’t). No one is castigating Ronnie (my childhood ‘idol’) here for that one.
In case there is any doubt, I liked Gilles Villeneuve as a racing driver. A lot. I also respected Didier Pironi and Jochen Mass.

Edited by AJCee, 24 March 2023 - 22:47.