202 replies to this topic

[JordanIreland]

Mick had two seasons in F1. Granted his first season was in a car, that was way off the pace. But in his second season, when he had a much better car, he did not really shine.

 

Season 2:

https://www.formula1...Mick Schumacher

 

There seems to be a few big players in F1 who are trying to get him back into an F1 team, but I dont see why he deserves a second chance.

 

Am I missing something?

[pacificquay]

He’s not awful, but aside from maybe de Vries, everyone on the grid now is better

[potmotr]

He's had his chance. 

[JordanIreland]

He's had his chance. 

 

I feel the same way. Yet the media seems to say he was booted our of Haas unfairly. It just seems odd that he is touted in such a positive light.

 

There is talks that Williams might take him on. I hope that is not the case.

[TheFish]

No, but there are worse drivers in F1 right now and he wouldn't be stinking the place up if he got another shot.

 

He'll never be a WDC, might fluke a win at some point, might fluke a podium, he seems a nice lad but he ain't his Dad.

[Afterburner]

Always seemed to take him two years to get up to speed in the lower categories. I think we didn't see that in F1 because the cars changed so dramatically from 2021 to 2022. So I guess maybe if he got another two years we'd see if he could be decent field filler but I'm not optimistic he'd do better than that and it wouldn't trouble me if I never saw it happen. I'm not opposed to him getting another shot though.

[Laster]

Deserve? I don’t know, I wouldn’t think it some grand injustice if he got a drive over some other up and coming rookie, but neither do I think it an injustice for Mick to have dropped off the grid. He lacks one lap pace that’s his biggest draw back it gives far too much work to do come race day and it has been a failing of his since his junior career. Not a single pole in his F2 championship winning season is a pretty bad stat and he was comprehensively outperformed by Magnussen in qualifying.

Come race day I do consider him to have decent pace at least enough to be competitive with other midfield drivers, and given experience the frequency of his crashes would diminish. But I don’t think he would ever be better than the Perez, Bottas, Hulkenberg’s of the F1 world.

Ultimately I don’t see his value to the F1 grid, his presence wouldn’t improve its quality and I think his efforts would be better spent trying to win championships in other series. He definitely has enough talent to make a racing career for himself, but in the F1 world he is little more than lower midfield quality.

Edited by Laster, 21 June 2023 - 16:24.

[realracer200]

He’s not awful, but aside from maybe de Vries, everyone on the grid now is better

 

He's better than at least 2 or 3 other drivers.

[Clatter]

He's better than at least 2 or 3 other drivers.

Who are they then?

[Anja]

He's good enough for F1, I'll say that - but not good enough that him not having a seat is some great injustice. Interchangeable with plenty of drivers out there on a similar level.

Edited by Anja, 21 June 2023 - 16:50.

[thegamer23]

I think so.

he's no worse than Sargeant or De Vries imho.

Last year he made a clear step forward in the 2nd half of the season, expecially in the races, giving K-mag a run for his money.

But got screwed by Haas strategy at least 2 times + some reliability issues in races where he was going good (Like Canada, was P7).

 

Now he has some Mercedes simulator & testing experience: plus, he brings the name and the sponsors.

Might be attractive for some teams, think Williams in particular.

 

Still think he can become a very solid F1 driver, if given a chance.

 

But who knows!
There are other series as well, F1 isn't everything.

Edited by thegamer23, 21 June 2023 - 17:00.

[aportinga]

He’s not awful, but aside from maybe de Vries, everyone on the grid now is better

 

I disagree. I think Gasley has no business on the grid and Bottas has been no where for a few years now. Are they better? I'd say that's debatable but none of them - including DeVries really deserves to be on the grid IMO for 2024.

[pacificquay]

There is not a driver called Gasley, but if you mean Gasly, he has won a race in an Alpha Tauri. 

 

I can’t see where you’d get the idea he has “no place on the grid”.

[Anderis]

He's that type of a "borderline" good enough driver. If he's in F1, you can't really say it's unearned but if he's out, you can't really say it's very unjust. I'm pretty indifferent.

 

If it's at the expense of Sargeant, I'm pretty indifferent still. Ideally, Sargeant should get a bit more time before being written off (Mick got 2 full years) but his gap to Albon is 1. big 2. not shrinking but rather growing in recent races so it makes me think he's never going to be good by F1 standards, so if Williams see any immediate benefits of replacing Sargeant with Schumacher, I don't mind.

[red stick]

Just as a point of process, I never understand the "deserve" aspect of these questions.  As if equity is a consideration.  

[Anderis]

I disagree. I think Gasley has no business on the grid and Bottas has been no where for a few years now. Are they better? I'd say that's debatable but none of them - including DeVries really deserves to be on the grid IMO for 2024.

I would say Bottas outperformed Perez in 2021 in comparable cars and in 2022, he outscored his team mate 49-6. Funny that you single him out as being nowhere for a few years, where would that put some other drivers, then?

Edited by Anderis, 21 June 2023 - 17:06.

[Zmeej]

Certainly more than the other guy who drove for Haas.

 

Apart from that, IMHO, the poll needs an "Other" field.

Edited by Zmeej, 21 June 2023 - 18:12.

[AlexPrime]

I think Hulk is much better and faster than him and so was KMag. So not really.

[PayasYouRace]

Just as a point of process, I never understand the "deserve" aspect of these questions.  As if equity is a consideration.  

 

I'm quite happy to use the word deserve when talking about the top talents. Verstappen, Alonso, Hamilton, Russell, Norris, Leclerc, etc. deserve to be in F1. Mick is one of those that could be a useful driver for a team with few options. He's not bad enough that he should never sit in an F1 car again.

[Claudius]

I think he got his chance and didn’t impress enough to be retained by Haas or some other team.
If he gets another chance, good for him.

[Risil]

Good driver but I don't think F1 has missed the next, er, Michael Schumacher.

[Beri]

He is only a talking point because of his last name. Otherwise everyone would have already moved on if it were similar results by someone with a different name. 

He has had his shot, he isnt as good as many wished him to be. Move on.

[Zmeej]

I'm quite happy to use the word deserve when talking about the top talents. Verstappen, Alonso, Hamilton, Russell, Norris, Leclerc, etc. deserve to be in F1. Mick is one of those that could be a useful driver for a team with few options. He's not bad enough that he should never sit in an F1 car again.

 

[Zmeej]

He is only a talking point because of his last name. Otherwise everyone would have already moved on if it were similar results by someone with a different name. 

He has had his shot, he isn't as good as many wished him to be. Move on.

 

There is no doubt that the fact that Mick is Mike's son is an important factor, just as the fact that Bruno is Ayrton's son [edit: error acknowledged, below] was a factor, or that Nelson Jr. was Nelson Sr.'s, or even that Damon is Graham's & and Max is Jos's.

 

However, the rest of your post is speculative, and the final two words are kinda annoying.

Edited by Zmeej, 23 June 2023 - 17:13.

[ClubmanGT]

He is only a talking point because of his last name. Otherwise everyone would have already moved on if it were similar results by someone with a different name. 

He has had his shot, he isnt as good as many wished him to be. Move on.

 

I hear more bout Mick from Haas than I do from Mick himself. If anyone needs to move on, it's them. Talking about Mick might get them headlines that don't relate to their own performance, but they made the choice to not have him in the car and it seems odd to keep talking about it halfway through the next season.

[Zmeej]

Odd?

 

Not really. You yourself provided a reason as to why they could be.

[ClubmanGT]

Also, FWIW, I think Mick probably is good enough to have a seat somewhere on the grid. It's fair to say he might be more Hartley-esque than Verstappen, but if he can get a ride in a team that is prepared to give him a decent mid-field strategy then he is definitely capable of midfield results. I don't think you can objectively say he had that at HAAS. 

[Clatter]

There is no doubt that the fact that Mick is Mike's son is an important factor, just as the fact that Bruno is Ayrton's son was a factor, or that Nelson Jr. was Nelson Sr.'s, or even that Damon is Graham's & and Max is Jos's.

However, the rest of your post is speculative, and the final two words are kinda annoying.

Bruno was Ayrtons nephew, not son. Afaik Ayrton never had any children.

[Zmeej]

Thanks for the correction.

[KWSN - DSM]

Deserve? I don’t know, I wouldn’t think it some grand injustice if he got a drive over some other up and coming rookie, but neither do I think it an injustice for Mick to have dropped off the grid. He lacks one lap pace that’s his biggest draw back it gives far too much work to do come race day and it has been a failing of his since his junior career. Not a single pole in his F2 championship winning season is a pretty bad stat and he was comprehensively outperformed by Magnussen in qualifying.

Come race day I do consider him to have decent pace at least enough to be competitive with other midfield drivers, and given experience the frequency of his crashes would diminish. But I don’t think he would ever be better than the Perez, Bottas, Hulkenberg’s of the F1 world.

Ultimately I don’t see his value to the F1 grid, his presence wouldn’t improve its quality and I think his efforts would be better spent trying to win championships in other series. He definitely has enough talent to make a racing career for himself, but in the F1 world he is little more than lower midfield quality.

 

Agree.

[Anuity]

He is clearly better than de Vries and Sargeant.

 

Then you have a group of drivers who are if better, only marginally so:

 

- Tsunoda

- Zhou

- Albon

- Stroll

- current Bottas

 

That said, I don't think Mick will be back. He could have had a decent career, something like Perez, Ocon, etc though.

[KWSN - DSM]

He is clearly better than de Vries and Sargeant.

 

Then you have a group of drivers who are if better, only marginally so:

 

- Tsunoda

- Zhou

- Albon

- Stroll

- current Bottas

 

That said, I don't think Mick will be back. He could have had a decent career, something like Perez, Ocon, etc though.

 

I think he is minimum as good as Tsunoda, Zhou, Stroll, likely better.

[Zmeej]

Zmeejette thinks that Tsunoda is a moving farce, which he displayed in spades in Montreal this past weekend.

 

Need to ask her what she thinks of Mick.

Edited by Zmeej, 21 June 2023 - 19:30.

[InSearchOfThe]

I'm not sure you can blame Haas for Mick's shortcomings as an F1 driver. Gene or Guenther weren't wrecking cars every weekend.
I agree with Beri, different last name and he'd be a footnote.

[messy]

Yes. He demolished Mazepin in his rookie season, basically ‘nilled’ him in qualifying a la Russell and Latifi but did write a fair few cars off. He then looked quite good at times in 2022 but was clearly struggling with confidence at times and struggled to get the most of the car in qualifying without smashing it up. Do I think he’s a potential World Champion? Probably not. Do I think he’s better than De Vries or Sargeant and would be a major upgrade on either if put in those cars? Hell yeah.

I do, though, also understand why Haas got fed up of him giving them massive repair bills.

Edited by messy, 21 June 2023 - 20:25.

[CharlesWinstone]

In the 2nd half of 2022 Mick was as quick or maybe quicker than Kevin. I think Mick should have a chance.

[Sterzo]

Nobody deserves an F1 drive. If you can persuade a team to take you, then you're in. There's no definitive way of measuring talent, but I'd say:

• The top three drivers in the world are in F1.
• Half a dozen more in F1 are probably in the top eight in the world on current form.
• The other ten in F1 are part of the world's top hundred. Many (but not all) of that 100 have had, or will have, a time in F1.

Mick's in that top 100, part of the churn of good drivers ultimately discarded because teams are looking for top-liners. F1 will try someone else now, not because they're definitely better, but because they might turn out to be better.

[dissident]

eh

 

I think he's better off trying sportscars

 

 

(I would have given him a 3rd season, though)

Edited by dissident, 21 June 2023 - 20:53.

[messy]

In the 2nd half of 2022 Mick was as quick or maybe quicker than Kevin. I think Mick should have a chance.

I also think Magnussen has been pretty sketchy since that amazing comeback drive in Bahrain last year - he’s seen Hulkenberg come into “his” team after years on the sidelines and basically destroy him on raw pace - 0.4 average gap even before Canada I think. Mick was getting on terms with him in the second half of 2022 and I kinda feel the trends were in his favour, but he smashed up one car too many before that.

To be honest though, Mick would only be finishing 17th every weekend in the Haas like their actual drivers are, so maybe better off where he is. I was disappointed he didn’t get a shot at Williams though. Him and Albon together would have been an interesting comparison.

[Lennat]

There is no doubt that the fact that Mick is Mike's son is an important factor, just as the fact that Bruno is Ayrton's son was a factor, or that Nelson Jr. was Nelson Sr.'s, or even that Damon is Graham's & and Max is Jos's.

However, the rest of your post is speculative, and the final two words are kinda annoying.

Max didn't get his F1 chance because his dad was a decent midfield driver. He simply deserved it because he was a huge talent. Damon might have gotten his chance partly because of his name, but he was one of the best F1 drivers in his prime. Not even close to Schumacher, but still among the top tier two drivers in the mid '90s.

It's not like Ralf Schumacher's, Jean Alesis's or Damon Hill's sons are getting F1 drives... I'd say Bruno and Mick got their drives largely because of their dad's names, as neither truly looked like having true star potential, but just lacked a tenth or two to become decent midfield driver with long careers. I'd rather see Mick give sportscars or IndyCar a try, as I think that might suit him better.

[Beri]

There is no doubt that the fact that Mick is Mike's son is an important factor, just as the fact that Bruno is Ayrton's son was a factor, or that Nelson Jr. was Nelson Sr.'s, or even that Damon is Graham's & and Max is Jos's.

However, the rest of your post is speculative, and the final two words are kinda annoying.

I get it that you're a fan of Mick, but he is no driver who deserves a seat. So the annoying last two words are the hard truth.
He didn't perform better than Magnussen, who was booted in that seat just weeks before the season started. As a matter of fact, he was humiliated by Magnussen.

As far as I am concerned, he is somewhat like Giovinazzi, Gutierrez, Ericsson or Wehrlein.

And my reply might be speculative. But it is realistic. Keeping hanging on that Schumacher is deserving of a seat, is not. His time has been, time to move on.

[MasterOfCoin]

Give him George or Lewis' dossier and he'll be up to speed real fast.....   

[danmills]

Probably dropped too soon, would have liked to see a third season but after a year out he will probably need another two seasons to get to grips again.

No team is going to take that punt.

Deserves a seat? No, sadly not. Had his chance and didn't do anything astonishing or eye opening.

Probably ranked below Tsunoda and Sergeant.

[noikeee]

"Deserve" is entirely arbitrary.

He trounced a totally **** driver, then was just about marginally behind Magnussen whilst crashing a lot. I don't rate Magnussen so I'm gonna say no, but I also don't think his driving abilities are offensive.

I've said before, he's a German Giovinazzi with a famous surname and less hair. Kinda okay driver, I guess? Solid 6 out of 10? Not likely to ever gonna wow anyone but also not likely to ever massively disappoint anyone because he's a perfectly serviceable pro driver?

[Anuity]

In a way, it’s good Mick got out of HAAS. It seems to be quite a toxic environment, they haven’t produced any promising young drivers themselves. It’s not like Jordan or even Toro Rosso.

instead they insisted on complaining about their own drivers back in the day, just to back off and rehire Magnussen.

 

maybe it’s his name but you just don’t hear nearly the amount of bad things about de vries and the likes.

since the beginning I thought the better fit for Mick was lining up with Kimi at Alfa. He would learn a lot and Kimi would not play any silly games.

[Anuity]

 

 

Not likely to ever gonna wow anyone but also not likely to ever massively disappoint anyone because he's a perfectly serviceable pro driver?

 

well it’s a perfect description for most of the field really…

 

i guess it’s difficult to argue that a multiple gp winner like Bottas is a wow factor.

[efuloni]

He deserved his chance. He didnt embaressed himself. He was OK.

But I dont think he is talented enough to deserve a second shot.

Let him go.

[expert]

He's that type of a "borderline" good enough driver. If he's in F1, you can't really say it's unearned but if he's out, you can't really say it's very unjust. I'm pretty indifferent.

 

If it's at the expense of Sargeant, I'm pretty indifferent still. Ideally, Sargeant should get a bit more time before being written off (Mick got 2 full years) but his gap to Albon is 1. big 2. not shrinking but rather growing in recent races so it makes me think he's never going to be good by F1 standards, so if Williams see any immediate benefits of replacing Sargeant with Schumacher, I don't mind.

Albon is getting the upgrades remember.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Always seemed to take him two years to get up to speed in the lower categories. I think we didn't see that in F1 because the cars changed so dramatically from 2021 to 2022. So I guess maybe if he got another two years we'd see if he could be decent field filler but I'm not optimistic he'd do better than that and it wouldn't trouble me if I never saw it happen. I'm not opposed to him getting another shot though.

I heard this line often, first when it was used preemptively to drive down the expectations ahead of his first F1 season, but it always struck me as a proof of his weakness.  Everyone gets better with time in a series (okay, maybe not Romain Grosjean, but most people), if they're given a chance.  Drivers who come into a ladder series with huge resources and connections are already starting with a huge advantage, and to use gaming term they're seal clubbing.  If Schumacher with all that he had still needed two seasons to dominate kids, time after time, it was probably a sign that he didn't have that much potential and would struggle when he got to a level where everyone had resources and connections.

[Dan333SP]

Would be exciting to see him in a top WEC program, preferably Ferrari but I guess he got booted from their academy.