34 replies to this topic

[Dan333SP]

Something that's come up on a few F1 podcasts I listen to is the idea that the struggles of both Lance Stroll and Sergio Perez in 2023 against their supremely talented teammates supports the idea that the 2020 Racing Point, driven by Perez and Stroll, was actually the 2nd best car of the season behind Mercedes (and was regarded as a clone of the title winner in 2019). I haven't done the math myself, but given the average gaps between Alonso/Stroll and Verstappen/Perez, where would the RP20 have been had it had a driver of that elite Hamilton/Verstappen/Alonso level in it? 

 

Maybe they couldn't have beaten Mercedes at their own game, but it does feel like that car was massively wasted given its inherent pace. 

[ARTGP]

Yes I believe that car had more in it with more elite drivers at the wheel. Nico Hulkenberg showed up and qualified 3rd on the grid in Silverstone, ahead of Stroll and nearly finished ahead of him but for a late race tire issue.

Edited by ARTGP, 21 June 2023 - 18:18.

[Beri]

The Racing Point might have been a solid car at the beginning of the season. But in no way it was ever a true contender. Not even had Hamilton and Verstappen sat in those seats.

[ARTGP]

The Racing Point might have been a solid car at the beginning of the season. But in no way it was ever a true contender. Not even had Hamilton and Verstappen sat in those seats.

The W11 with Hamilton at the wheel was not going to lose the championship. But that RP20 had much more to give. Neither driver who piloted it was known for their qualy speed and that was an era where qualifying decided many races.

[Risil]

No, Mercedes had a huge advantage. Can believe it was the better package than the Red Bull at times.

Mind you, if it was Hamilton in the Racing Point and Stroll in the Mercedes...

[Claudius]

Like others have said, it probably wouldn’t have challenged Mercedes. But they probably would’ve gotten better results.

One other scenario that often occurs to me is Lotus in 2012.
What could have been with Alonso or Hamilton or Max.
Nothing against Kimi but I’m not sure he extracted everything from the car.

[SilverArrow31]

Like others have said, it probably wouldn’t have challenged Mercedes. But they probably would’ve gotten better results.

One other scenario that often occurs to me is Lotus in 2012.
What could have been with Alonso or Hamilton or Max.
Nothing against Kimi but I’m not sure he extracted everything from the car.

Both the 2012 and 2013 lotus's were very good cars! Among my favourites. Alonso or Hamilton's raw speed with a car so easy on its tyres would've been a joy to see, and would've made Vettel sweat more than he did IMO.

[FNG]

Title challenger? No. Multiple race winner yes

[Disgrace]

They only narrowly missed out on third in the WCC. I think that would be an accurate reflection of that car's potential. Both drivers underperformed - Perez in the first half of the year and Stroll in the second - but in no world was Racing Point going to beat Mercedes with their old car.

[ARTGP]

They only narrowly missed out on third in the WCC. I think that would be an accurate reflection of that car's potential. Both drivers underperformed - Perez in the first half of the year and Stroll in the second - but in no world was Racing Point going to beat Mercedes with their old car.

 

The fact that they finished behind Mclaren in 2020, with the car they had...and the car Mclaren had...and Red Bull only having 1 driver says it all. A serious lineup would have threatened Red bull for 2nd in the WCC. 

Edited by ARTGP, 21 June 2023 - 18:43.

[Touchdown]

It never could have won the championship, being a 2019 Mercedes up againt the 2020 Mercedes.

 

I do believe someone at the level of Verstappen could have beaten Bottas to second in the WDC though.

[RekF1]

Something that's come up on a few F1 podcasts I listen to is the idea that the struggles of both Lance Stroll and Sergio Perez in 2023 against their supremely talented teammates supports the idea that the 2020 Racing Point, driven by Perez and Stroll, was actually the 2nd best car of the season behind Mercedes (and was regarded as a clone of the title winner in 2019). I haven't done the math myself, but given the average gaps between Alonso/Stroll and Verstappen/Perez, where would the RP20 have been had it had a driver of that elite Hamilton/Verstappen/Alonso level in it? 
 
Maybe they couldn't have beaten Mercedes at their own game, but it does feel like that car was massively wasted given its inherent pace.

No. This is bullshit. Sorry, but the pink Mercedes was up against the black bullet with its intended swan song. It was supposed to be the last of that concept. Perez isn't as fast as Max, but he's fast enough to be a useful teammate. Perez, without a contract lined up, was a cool head for a stretch of races and before the Bahrain 2.0 race, I tipped him to win that race. Despite his unfortunate start he still won. And I could see it coming from a mile off. That was an incredible effort that season.

That's very disrespectful towards a guy who did things his teammates couldn't, like end up on the podium (sorry Hulk fans).

[Anderis]

Perez scored:

36% of the title winner points in 2020

48% in 2021

67% in 2022

and is having 65% points of the WDC leader in 2023

 

So no, it wouldn't have. But it's possible they could've been 2nd in WCC if they had a driver pairing at the same level as Mercedes.

Edited by Anderis, 21 June 2023 - 20:25.

[messy]

I think that RP20 was a really good car - but it was a really good car because it was the previous year’s Mercedes so it was never some magic rocketship that was masked by poor drivers - had it been an elite driver in that car I think it would have been just very slightly ahead of where Perez was and still behind the year-newer, Hamilton piloted Mercedes on any normal race afternoon. It surely would have finished second though. I think there’s a very good chance it was a better package than the Red Bull.

[George Costanza]

Not even close IMHO. Red Bulls were quicker and of course Mercedes.

[George Costanza]

Like others have said, it probably wouldn’t have challenged Mercedes. But they probably would’ve gotten better results.

One other scenario that often occurs to me is Lotus in 2012.
What could have been with Alonso or Hamilton or Max.
Nothing against Kimi but I’m not sure he extracted everything from the car.

Kimi was a far better driver under those regulations than people give him credit for. Kimi was definitely fast. He could be incredibly quick. Kimi's issue was probably more motivation than anything else. Similar to Mika Hakkinen.

Edited by George Costanza, 22 June 2023 - 02:39.

[JvsKVB77]

Something that's come up on a few F1 podcasts I listen to is the idea that the struggles of both Lance Stroll and Sergio Perez in 2023 against their supremely talented teammates supports the idea that the 2020 Racing Point, driven by Perez and Stroll, was actually the 2nd best car of the season behind Mercedes (and was regarded as a clone of the title winner in 2019). I haven't done the math myself, but given the average gaps between Alonso/Stroll and Verstappen/Perez, where would the RP20 have been had it had a driver of that elite Hamilton/Verstappen/Alonso level in it? 

 

Maybe they couldn't have beaten Mercedes at their own game, but it does feel like that car was massively wasted given its inherent pace. 

Racing Point  was 1,2-1,1 %  behind Mercedes on average. So with 0.5 - 0.7% difference of drivers they only will be very close to Redbull, but not beat them. (ok, not beat Verstappen-like driver of Redbull)

Edited by JvsKVB77, 22 June 2023 - 05:56.

[Beri]

The W11 with Hamilton at the wheel was not going to lose the championship. But that RP20 had much more to give. Neither driver who piloted it was known for their qualy speed and that was an era where qualifying decided many races.

 

Beating Red Bull would have been tough. And I think undoable. McLaren should have been beaten all year long, tho. That hasnt happened, sadly.

[Amin]

Kimi was a far better driver under those regulations than people give him credit for. Kimi was definitely fast. He could be incredibly quick. Kimi's issue was probably more motivation than anything else. Similar to Mika Hakkinen.

The first half of 2013 I thought Kimi was on top of his game. He still had a few poor qualifying sessions but his race pace and race craft were excellent. After the tyre change mid season and the back injury in Singapore, he started to drop off and Grosjean started consistently beating him in qualifying and matching him in the races. Big what if and wishful thinking on my part but I feel without the mid-season tyre change and back injury, he would've pushed Vettel to the last race.

[PlatenGlass]

Every so often we'll have a thread about top cars that were wasted by the drivers and I think this car has featured.

A large part of Perez's problem at Red Bull is mistakes he's made, throwing away good results, perhaps because of the pressure of the best car and having Max as his team-mate. I don't think he made that many mistakes at Racing Point (though correct me if I'm wrong) so I think he made better use of the car.

Obviously you'd expect a Hamilton or Verstappen to get more out of it but it still wasn't winning the championship. Mercedes in 2020 was quite a bit ahead of anything. Ahead of Red Bull? Harder to say. I'd need to watch all the races again.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 22 June 2023 - 10:22.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Let’s be real here, no car was coming close to the W11, Mercedes had perfected those regulations and that car embodied that. The Pink Mercedes could’ve finished P3 in the WCC with better drivers or maybe even P2 if both drivers were consistently delivering top 4 results because that car was very capable of doing so.

I get it that people might feel because of Perez and Stroll’s disappointing form certainly the past 5 or so races that they had a title contender in 2020 but the reality isn’t that at all.

Edited by STRFerrari4Ever, 22 June 2023 - 11:05.

[Dan333SP]

I'm in the middle of reading Adrian Newey's excellent book How to Build a Car, and he does state that copying another team's concept and trying to perfect it will almost always be a losing battle because you'll always be half a step behind. This applies to Aston Martin in 2023, and it seems to apply here as well. 

[Vesuvius]

Kimi was a far better driver under those regulations than people give him credit for. Kimi was definitely fast. He could be incredibly quick. Kimi's issue was probably more motivation than anything else. Similar to Mika Hakkinen.

This. Also those pirelli tyres suited Kimi's driving style better than those that came after 2013 silversone.Althought Lotus was easy for tyres, it was that mainly on Kimi's hands not so much in Grosjeans, and Kimi has always been known as one of the most if not the most gentle to the tyres.

New regulations 2014 onwards maybe didn't suit Kimi as well but some of the reason was on tyres.

What comes to 2020, no way Racing Point would have challenged for the title in hands of a better drivers. Mercedes was miles ahead of everyone. Racing point in 2020 for sure was a car that should have achieved more podiums and maybe wins as well.

Edited by Vesuvius, 22 June 2023 - 17:51.

[Vesuvius]

The first half of 2013 I thought Kimi was on top of his game. He still had a few poor qualifying sessions but his race pace and race craft were excellent. After the tyre change mid season and the back injury in Singapore, he started to drop off and Grosjean started consistently beating him in qualifying and matching him in the races. Big what if and wishful thinking on my part but I feel without the mid-season tyre change and back injury, he would've pushed Vettel to the last race.

Indeed, that tyre change mid season changed everything.Kimi wiped the floor with Grosjean before that, but at the latter half they were even due to tyre change and Lotus developments that didn't suit Kimi (longer wheelbase). Kimi's back injury also had an effect on few last races of 2013 and he had to go back surgery.

[MikeTekRacing]

Every so often we'll have a thread about top cars that were wasted by the drivers and I think this car has featured.

A large part of Perez's problem at Red Bull is mistakes he's made, throwing away good results, perhaps because of the pressure of the best car and having Max as his team-mate. I don't think he made that many mistakes at Racing Point (though correct me if I'm wrong) so I think he made better use of the car.

Obviously you'd expect a Hamilton or Verstappen to get more out of it but it still wasn't winning the championship. Mercedes in 2020 was quite a bit ahead of anything. Ahead of Red Bull? Harder to say. I'd need to watch all the races again.

Perez had Covid in 2020, missed some races when the car was still at its best.

in Austria the team threw away a podium with not pitting him under the SC. After Perez was back from Covid  they started giving Stroll all the updates and Stroll hit an unlucky patch.

In Bahrain Perez's car exploded on the last lap while being in 3rd.

Then he won the race when Lewis was out and Mercedes shot themselves in the foot. He had pace to be near the front there.

 

Sure, Max and Lewis in that team would have got more. But that's not a realistic team. Title? LOL

[ARTGP]

 

idle curiosities and all. 

 

 

I have no doubts this was the 2nd fastest car at the start of 2022 and possibly through the end of the season and just came down to drivers.  How close they could have gotten to the real Mercedes, we will never know. 

Edited by ARTGP, 08 August 2023 - 19:28.

[P123]

Undoubtedly there are a few drivers who would have got more out of the car, but not a title.  I also think at times it was a bit off from being second best.  Even if you had put Max in that car, and knocked off 0.5s from each of Sergio's qualifying times, it would rarely have been enough to get Max in the RP ahead of Max in the RB, and the most notable bettered results would have been a front row in Portugal and a pole in Sakhir.

[Laptom]

Wonder how good the 2019 Merc W10 was?

[MikeTekRacing]

The car started the season well.

The team operations was not on par with the big teams (SC calls were bad).

Checo missed some races on covid - then they were FULLY behind Lance - he was getting all upgrades, he was not moving for the team etc.

Even on their only win Checo had to race Lance despite being clearly faster. Luckily Lance outbraked himself in T4.

 

Yes with better drivers they would have had more wins. With a better team exploiting the car it would have been better.

 

More than wins? No way

[Astandahl]

 

idle curiosities and all. 

 

 

I have no doubts this was the 2nd fastest car at the start of 2022 and possibly through the end of the season and just came down to drivers.  How close they could have gotten to the real Mercedes, we will never know. 

On pure pace they would have never won a single race bar Turkey maybe? . They would have done much better with competent drivers for sure though.

[baddog]

No, it was the second best for a while and faded. No chance of a title whatsoever. It could have done better of course but not THAT good.

[PayasYouRace]

I’d imagine that if you stuck Verstappen in the car he’d have had a similar season to what he actually did in the Red Bull. About 200 points. Checo scored 125. Max actually scored 214 in the RB16. He could potentially have beaten Bottas’ 233, but I don’t think anyone would be close to Lewis’ 347 (which would obviously be lower if you were challenging him for wins regularly).

[le chat noir]

The question really is more about swapping Stroll and Hamilton.

A poor showing in the Mercedes, a good showing in the RP, maybe you get Stroll vs Hamilton vs Verstappen.

[PlatenGlass]

The question really is more about swapping Stroll and Hamilton.

A poor showing in the Mercedes, a good showing in the RP, maybe you get Stroll vs Hamilton vs Verstappen.

 

I don't think Stroll is beating Bottas.

[MikeTekRacing]

I’d imagine that if you stuck Verstappen in the car he’d have had a similar season to what he actually did in the Red Bull. About 200 points. Checo scored 125. Max actually scored 214 in the RB16. He could potentially have beaten Bottas’ 233, but I don’t think anyone would be close to Lewis’ 347 (which would obviously be lower if you were challenging him for wins regularly).

Exactly.

Also, the ability to extract the maximum out of the car is not only on the driver. Just look at Ferrari.

Nailing the right setup, strategy calls etc - all those are a lot better at the top teams (except Ferrari, again)