238 replies to this topic

[Nathan]

Killed today at Spa aged 18 during the Formula Regional European race.  Another Raidillon pile up...

 

Dilano was the 2021 Spanish F4 champion.

 

R.I.P. and thoughts for his family and our Dutch racing friends.

Edited by Nathan, 01 July 2023 - 11:40.

[Amz964]

Horrible news to hear, RIP.

[Burtros]

So young. Multi car crash, I fear a replay of what happened to Hubert.

RIP

[ToniF1]

MOD EDIT: please don’t post unlabelled and unspoilered videos of people dying.

 

(Fatal accident video)

Spoiler

https://www.youtube....h?v=lpOa8Luqz60

Edited by SophieB, 01 July 2023 - 11:48.

[Viryfan]

RIP Dilano.

[GlenWatkins]

Very sad, RIP

[jals99]

RIP Dilano

[Ruusperi]

Terrible day for all motorsport community.

 

 

Should put that behind spoiler-tag, just the link without the image.

Plus that channel just stole the footage, probably to monetize or to get more subscribers for their channel, which is immoral.

[LolaB0860]

Terrible

 

Why isn't this the top story on motorsport.com but just buried in the lesser news? Verstappen sprint pole whatever is more important I guess

 

And zero mention on Autosport still

Edited by LolaB0860, 01 July 2023 - 11:51.

[pRy]

Easy to say this sort of thing this soon after a crash but is going green with one lap to go with that amount of standing water and spray really a good idea?

[crus]

Very sad situation. I saw the Tramnitz crash while rewatching the race and thought that could easily have been a Hubert situation again. There wasn't anything shown on the Stream.

[SophieB]

Terrible

 

Why isn't this the top story on motorsport.com but just buried in the lesser news? Verstappen sprint pole whatever is more important I guess

 

And zero mention on Autosport still

https://www.autospor...t-spa/10489987/

[TomNokoe]

Easy to say this sort of thing this soon after a crash but is going green with one lap to go with that amount of standing water and spray really a good idea?

Is that what happened? One lap left? Not good.

[P123]

Terrible news.

 

If they didn't indeed have it going green with one lap to go it seems a crazy decision in those conditions with a field so bunched together.

[pRy]

Is that what happened? One lap left? Not good.

Looks that way.

A multi-car accident was triggered when Tim Tramnitz, who was running second, lost control of his Tatuus-Renault FR-19 one-make single-seater at the top of Raidillon immediately after the safety car was called in ahead of the final lap.

https://www.motorspo...crash/10489982/

[Amz964]

Easy to say this sort of thing this soon after a crash but is going green with one lap to go with that amount of standing water and spray really a good idea?

What an absolutely stupid decision, the conditions were bad very poor visability and a last lap dash with everyone together recipe for disaster.

[noikeee]

Tragic news.

 

2 almost identical fatal accidents in 3 or 4 years in almost the same spot. I know no motorsport fan wants this, but I wonder if there might be a push towards track changes... and to avoid crashes like this I don't really see any other option other than saying goodbye to Eau Rouge as we know it...

[TomNokoe]

Looks that way.
 

 

Am I reading too much into this, or is this F1's "finish under green" mentality trickling down into junior series?

[ensign14]

Hubert died because of front wings and van ‘t Hoff because of safety cars. It’s not the track that needs changing, it’s the FIA.

[1player]

Tragic news.

 

2 almost identical fatal accidents in 3 or 4 years in almost the same spot. I know no motorsport fan wants this, but I wonder if there might be a push towards track changes... and to avoid crashes like this I don't really see any other option other than saying goodbye to Eau Rouge as we know it...

Agreed. I'd rather have a safer track than abandoning Spa forever because it's too dangerous. It's changed before, it can change again.

[EightGear]

I don't think the accident is related to the track, it did NOT happen at Eau Rouge.

[FLB]

Am I reading too much into this, or is this F1's "finish under green" mentality trickling down into junior series?

It came from NASCAR and is something that has trickled down to FIA series, including F1, via Liberty's influence.

Edited by FLB, 01 July 2023 - 12:20.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Well the runoff has been significantly changed at Eau Rouge and Raidillon. There not a lot they can do outside of scrapping Eau Rouge in its current guise.

 

They probably need to make it tighter again, taking it back to what it used to be and hence slowing the cars down. With modern downforce formula cars it’s just a flat out straight.

RIP to the driver. Awful.

[1player]

I don't think the accident is related to the track, it did NOT happen at Eau Rouge.

??? From Wikipedia "Van 't Hoff died in a FRECA race at Spa-Francorchamps on 1 July 2023. The FRECA race was a support race for the 2023 Spa 24 Hours. The multi-car crash occurred at the exit of Raidillon, just before on the Kemmel straight. In total, five drivers were involved, two of whom were injured."

 

That's the same place where Hubert died and numerous pile up occur because of the layout of that particular section of the track.

 

EDIT: I might be wrong, I haven't watched the video nor I want to, so disregard my comment.

Edited by 1player, 01 July 2023 - 12:28.

[uzsjgb]

What an absolutely stupid decision, the conditions were bad very poor visability and a last lap dash with everyone together recipe for disaster.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Everybody complains when the FIA keeps a safety car out too long or red flags a race. When something happens everybody complains about the exact opposite. 

[FLB]

I don't think the accident is related to the track, it did NOT happen at Eau Rouge.

The Kemmel straight narrows greatly towards Les Combes. There's very little room on either side of the straight, so if a car goes off in the Raidllion to the left and bounces back on the track, there's nowhere to go, especially if cars are in a pack after a start/restart.

[EightGear]

??? From Wikipedia "Van 't Hoff died in a FRECA race at Spa-Francorchamps on 1 July 2023. The FRECA race was a support race for the 2023 Spa 24 Hours. The multi-car crash occurred at the exit of Raidillon, just before on the Kemmel straight. In total, five drivers were involved, two of whom were injured."

 

That's the same place where Hubert died and numerous pile up occur because of the layout of that particular section of the track.

 

 

If you watch the video you will see that it is indeed after Radillon but it definately is not the same as Hubert.

[uzsjgb]

Agreed. I'd rather have a safer track than abandoning Spa forever because it's too dangerous. It's changed before, it can change again.

 

Spa just invested a lot of money to make the track less safe for cars, because they also want motorcycle races. So I would assume there would be little money left to remodel the track again.

 

P.S. I don't think the remodeling had anything to do with this crash. I don't even think the track had anything to do with it, the crash happened on a straight.

[milestone 11]

The Kemmel straight narrows greatly towards Les Combes. There's very little room on either side of the straight, so if a car goes off in the Raidllion to the left and bounces back on the track, there's nowhere to go, especially if cars are in a pack after a start/restart.

It shouldn't have been restarted if the timings and conditions were what I have read.

[Myrvold]

Tragic news.

 

2 almost identical fatal accidents in 3 or 4 years in almost the same spot. I know no motorsport fan wants this, but I wonder if there might be a push towards track changes... and to avoid crashes like this I don't really see any other option other than saying goodbye to Eau Rouge as we know it...

 

At the same time, this can happen at any track where there are walls relatively close to the track, so basically any track.

[Ruusperi]

At the same time, this can happen at any track where there are walls relatively close to the track, so basically any track.

Yeah, that's why Jeddah scares me a lot, and any street circuits with blind corners, Baku etc.

If you end up like this, it doesn't matter if it's dry or wet when a queue of cars is coming at you 300km/h. Maybe the first car sees you, but what about the one behind it?

Edited by Ruusperi, 01 July 2023 - 12:36.

[LolaB0860]

Spa just invested a lot of money to make the track less safe for cars, because they also want motorcycle races. So I would assume there would be little money left to remodel the track again.

 

???

[ANF]

Is that what happened? One lap left? Not good.

The SC restart happened with two laps to go. Or rather, race leader Antonelli crossed the line with about 13 seconds left on the clock, so there would have been an additional lap after the lap he started.

The first "SC in this lap" message actually appeared with 9:55 left on the clock, but the SC restart had to be aborted and the safety car had to stay out as Lucas Medina's car stopped at Les Combes. The next "SC in this lap" message, following the recovery of Medina's car, appeared with 1:51 left on the clock.

[scheivlak]

Am I reading too much into this, or is this F1's "finish under green" mentality trickling down into junior series?

It was not that simple. SC was -understandibly- declared after a rather minor collision between two cars, field was ready to go after 2 laps but then a car stopped on the circuit just before the moment the race should be restarted and had to be cleared. So the SC did another lap (or two?) which resulted in a 2 lap sprint finish (not 1, the leader started the lap just before the time limit and the finish is the lap after that one then) which went horribly wrong right after the Radilion.

[PlatenGlass]

There's a whole discussion thread somewhere about this section of tracks having a disproportionate number of accidents and how to fix it. E.g. tightening the initial left section to how it used to be years ago.

Edit - though it seems this accident was a bit further along.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 01 July 2023 - 12:47.

[uzsjgb]

???

 

Bikes need different safety features than cars, so a track hosting cars and motorcycles will always need a compromise. For safety reasons it would be best to have different tracks for cars and motorcycles. But due to monetary reasons that is seldomly possible.

[ensign14]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Everybody complains when the FIA keeps a safety car out too long or red flags a race. When something happens everybody complains about the exact opposite. 

I have long maintained the safety car should be banned.  If a safety car is required, then red flag.  And do the aggregate time thing so it doesn't become a one-car shootout.

 

Unfortunately the FIA prefers this sort of thing.

[crus]

Yeah, that's why Jeddah scares me a lot, and any street circuits with blind corners, Baku etc.

If you end up like this, it doesn't matter if it's dry or wet when a queue of cars is coming at you 300km/h. Maybe the first car sees you, but what about the one behind it?

 

The F1 and motorsport in general have done a great job in improving the safety levels, in F1 it has become really unlikely to get hurt or even killed in an accident.

Nevertheless, it is most likely that it will be a T-Bone situation that leads to the next F1 fatality, after the risk for hits on the head was lowered by the Halo. 

Edited by crus, 01 July 2023 - 12:54.

[Marklar]

Hubert died because of front wings and van ‘t Hoff because of safety cars. It’s not the track that needs changing, it’s the FIA.

That's very binary. The track clearly is the issue to a large extent given the frequency of incidents across all series. This doesnt absolve the FIA from any blame, but putting the blame on them alone is also wrong.

I disagree btw with the outrage over them restarting on the final two laps. Everything was cleared and they had raced in these conditions all day. Sure, cold tyres, whatever. But with that argument you only race in Spa in the rain under the SC, quite frankly. In fact this incident likely happens no matter if it's dry or wet, which again leads us back to the issues of the track.

[uzsjgb]

I have long maintained the safety car should be banned.  If a safety car is required, then red flag.  And do the aggregate time thing so it doesn't become a one-car shootout.

 

Unfortunately the FIA prefers this sort of thing.

 

To be fair, there have been many more red flags in recent years. But in this case a red flag would have lead to a safety car restart anyway, because it was raining. 

[ensign14]

A red flag would have ended the race then and there.  As happened throughout motor sport history until pay per view came along.

[PlatenGlass]

A red flag would have ended the race then and there. As happened throughout motor sport history until pay per view came along.

This accident could have happened before any red flag. Racing post red flag isn't inherently more dangerous than racing pre red flag.

[uzsjgb]

A red flag would have ended the race then and there.  As happened throughout motor sport history until pay per view came along.

 

If red flags mean an automatic end of the race, we would just see less red flags, especially if many laps remain. That would be counter-productive. 

[ANF]

I don't think it's correct to say that the accident happened at the exit of Raidillon. It rather seemed to happen at the unnumbered right-hand kink between Raidillon and the Kemmel Straight. The fatal T-bone collision certainly happened right after the kink at the very beginning of the Kemmel Straight.

Amatueur footage shows the MP Motorsport car of van't Hoff sliding across the track, already sideways after having hit the armco barrier on the left-hand side. It also shows another car, a dark car (of which there are plenty in the field – I believe this possibly may have been Joshua Dufek), that is off into the grass on the left-hand side and seems to hit the barrier and lose its front wing. Because of the spray it's impossible to tell from the video whether the two cars hit the barrier after making contact or if van't Hoff hit the barrier before the dark car arrived.

One thing I did notice, both in the live broadcast and in the amateur video, was that I couldn't see any flags or flashing light panels following the initial accident for Tim Tramnitz at the exit of Raidillon. For instance, I was expecting to see a green flag at marshal post 4B at the exit of the kink. But maybe there were flags and light panels out of shot, I don't know. Perhaps there was a flag at 4B as well but hidden behind the structure.

One other thing I noticed was that Tim Tramnitz's stricken car came very close to returning to the racing line after hitting the barrier, but it eventually veered off and left the track.

[uzsjgb]

This accident could have happened before any red flag. Racing post red flag isn't inherently more dangerous than racing pre red flag.

 

People seem to think so. Easy question: what precisely did the drivers involved in this crash do, that they wouldn't have done at the start of the race?

[sportyskells]

I wonder if fia will do a check to see what went wrong here and to prevent a repeat

[FLB]

The accident is being discussed on Sky (F1 pre-Sprint race).

[gillesfan76]

MOD EDIT: please don’t post unlabelled and unspoilered videos of people dying.

 

(Fatal accident video)

Spoiler

https://www.youtube....h?v=lpOa8Luqz60

 

Gosh that was shocking. Poor guy never stood a chance and just hoping it was instant. 18 years old, so much life ahead of him. RIP and thoughts for his family.

 

Most of us complain a lot when races are red flagged in wet conditions but when visibility is shocking such as quite clearly the case here, then I think the risk is tangibly higher and safety should be prioritised over our entertainment. The visibility in those conditions in the video was shocking.

[uzsjgb]

I wonder if fia will do a check to see what went wrong here and to prevent a repeat

 

The FIA investigates every major crash

[Roadhouse]

Gosh that was shocking. Poor guy never stood a chance and just hoping it was instant. 18 years old, so much life ahead of him. RIP and thoughts for his family.

 

Most of us complain a lot when races are red flagged in wet conditions but when visibility is shocking such as quite clearly the case here, then I think the risk is tangibly higher and safety should be prioritised over our entertainment. The visibility in those conditions in the video was shocking.

 

Wondering what could be done in those conditions (besides not racing). The race should be immediately neutralized when someone spins on track, but even that wouldn't have put him out of harms way, there's just no way to react in time when the field is bunched up like that.