136 replies to this topic

[YamahaV10]

Thoughts ?

Some teams in some years just have it. And nobody else can come close.

I think it is time for one of the major series to try reverse grids. If we can experiment with sprint weekends, why not with reverse grids? I just don't think we would see this kind of domination with reverse grids.

[MagnyCours2000]

Max +54.7% over Perez
Palou +41.2% over Dixon

The interesting thing is that There are three teammates in the Indycar top 4.
Chip Ganassi just seems to have their operations nicely in order. As I understand it, in Indycar the teams only get to mount their own dampeners, the rest of the car is spec?

Palou, when he gets like this, seems utterly dominant.
Dixon, can't be getting faster, but he's great at hauling points.
I support Ericsson, because I love an F1 pay driver doing well in the second biggest open wheeled circus. Frustrating how he's been spilling points.

What Indycar might need most, is to either lose Palou or gain a few strong drivers. Can Kanaan help Drugovic out perhaps? Schumacher, ready to try something new? Devries, Vandoorne? Vergne tired of Europe, maybe when Pagenaud retires?
No Red Bull car in Indycar? Deemed too expensive, or just not their audience? Lawson seems like he'd do well. 
And of course Alonso isn't done racing. When he gets bored with not winning again, he could still have years of Indycar dominance, if the series clicks for him. At the Indy500 he seemed right at home, the first time of trying.

Indycar being so close and tracks so different, it seems every grid is mixed up. You will often find at least one of the "super quick young guys" start in the second half of a 26 or 27 car grid.
It's hard for me to come up with a chance to Indycar that wouldn't also ruin it.

Edited by MagnyCours2000, 06 July 2023 - 01:00.

[Dan333SP]

Man, Grosjean has really tanked after looking like a real threat for wins in the first few races. Didn’t realize he’s not even in the top 10. Palou is the real deal.

[Primo]

Thoughts ?

 

 

 

To start with, the winner get 50 points in Indycar, so while Palou can stay at home for two races and still have the lead guaranteed,  Max can stay at home for one more. 

[Dmitriy_Guller]

To start with, the winner get 50 points in Indycar, so while Palou can stay at home for two races and still have the lead guaranteed,  Max can stay at home for one more. 

I think that's close to the best way to compare across different series.  How many worst case scenario races can you have before your lead is erased?  In Indycar, you can lose 49 points of lead max, as long as you show up to the race (because you get 5 points for the last place).  In F1 you can lose 26 points max.  By that metric, Max has a margin of 3.1 races, whereas Palau has a margin of 2.2 races.  That said, pound for pound Indycar margin is probably worth more, because if F1 leader DNFs, it's very likely that his championship rival would capitalize to the maximum, whereas in Indycar with so many possible winners in each race it's much harder to take advantage of the championship leader's misfortune.

[prommer]

Chip Ganassi just seems to have their operations nicely in order. As I understand it, in Indycar the teams only get to mount their own dampeners, the rest of the car is spec?

 

This is basically true -- the dampers are different -- but the way the teams set up their car can be very different. Especially this year, as there are a lot of new aero options that the teams can choose from.

 

And yes, Ganassi just seems to do everything perfectly, effortlessly, while Andretti and McLaren can seem like hot messes all the time (Grosjean last weekend admitted that they missed out on Fast 12 qualifying because they got the tire pressures wrong). Penske, anecdotally, have been said to have lost a step since the introduction of the aeroscreen (though the jury is still out on that).

 

But still... Palou's been something else entirely. Champion in 2021, 5th place in 2022 (while fighting his owner in court!!), and purely dominant this season.  I honestly think he'll be replacing Checo next year.

[eab]

Thoughts ?

 

Some teams in some years just have it. And nobody else can come close. 

 

I think it is time for one of the major series to try reverse grids. If we can experiment with sprint weekends, why not with reverse grids? I just don't think we would see this kind of domination with reverse grids.

(This kind of) domination is something that almost never happens in the first place in IC, so it's completely different from F1, and therefore alone no need for reverse grids. Even with a Palou on fire, IC races and their results, and this includes the winner, are still far, far from being set in stone. The races are varied and actually fun to watch.

[Scotracer]

As someone who watches most Indycar races, I still find it amazing and a little jarring that the person that was dominating one race can be circulating outside the top 10 at the next. Not helped by the overly enthusiastic commentary making a narrative around each driver to lead a weekend like they're the second coming or something.

[Muppetmad]

Palou is in great form right now - in fact, the best form I think I can recall from a driver in IndyCar since Pagenaud's title run in 2016 - but there's lots of competition that will keep him on his toes going forwards.

[Anja]

As someone who watches most Indycar races, I still find it amazing and a little jarring that the person that was dominating one race can be circulating outside the top 10 at the next. Not helped by the overly enthusiastic commentary making a narrative around each driver to lead a weekend like they're the second coming or something.

 

That's just how spec series work. In F1 the differences between cars absorb most of the "off" weekend losses - bad setup, strategy, driver form etc - so it means let's say 4th instead of 2nd. With those gaps in equipment much smaller it means 12th instead of 2nd. 

Edited by Anja, 06 July 2023 - 08:53.

[Henri Greuter]

Vaguely remember something like it to be already done elsewhere at this forum.

But I rather would compare Max vs. Alex dominating their championships when both series are given the same kind of point score systems. Thus both accoriding F1 points and/or Indycar scores.

But it would be difficult anyway then because of those Sprint races points handed out in F1: eliminate those?

 

 

One common factor:  Honda.....

 

 

 

And things could have even better for Palou had it not been for Rinus ruining Alex' Indy 500 result.....

Edited by Henri Greuter, 06 July 2023 - 09:00.

[jonklug]

Haven't followed Indy in years and I don't mean to offend, but objectively that grid looks sub par to me when Scott Dixon at 42 years old is 2nd and Marcus Ericsson is 4th in the table.

Edited by jonklug, 06 July 2023 - 09:26.

[Muppetmad]

The grid isn't sub-par; on the contrary, it's a great grid. Some very good drivers just aren't on top of their game right now. Penske are having a very up-and-down year, Andretti aren't where they could (should?) be, and O'Ward has made some silly mistakes along the way. Once they get their act together, Palou and Ganassi will feel the heat again.

[Anja]

Haven't followed Indy in years and I don't mean to offend, but objectively that grid looks sub par to me when Scott Dixon at 42 years old is 2nd and Marcus Ericsson is 4th in the table.

 

Alonso is 41 (turns 42 this month!) and he's 3rd in F1. The second oldest driver is right behind him in 4th. What a weak grid...

Edited by Anja, 06 July 2023 - 09:36.

[Sterzo]

I think it is time for one of the major series to try reverse grids. If we can experiment with sprint weekends, why not with reverse grids? I just don't think we would see this kind of domination with reverse grids.

 

Many series have reversed grid races, and demonstrate that they're rubbish. I'm left feeling I've wasted part of my life watching something with no meaning whatever.

 

Maybe it's time for many of those following racing to watch more closely, and appreciate what's going on. Indycar is terrific, F1 is terrific, Formula E is terrific. (So are many other series down to hot hatches and 750 Formula). And if they still don't like it (which is fair enough), they should go and watch something else.

[Risil]

There's no use comparing points leads between series without adjusting for the fact that the two series in fact assign points in different ways. This isn't a good basis for a discussion.

Edit: On second thoughts I've adjusted the OP and reopened the thread. Feel free to comment on massive championship leads and if there's anything untoward / to be done about them here.

[Risil]

Bump

[jonpollak]

Nothing untoward at all.
Dominance is totally a part of racing.
A huge part actually.
I’d love to se Alex win all the races left.
He’s that good and we should revel in it.

Jp

[GlenWatkins]

Nothing untoward at all.
Dominance is totally a part of racing.
A huge part actually.
I’d love to se Alex win all the races left.
He’s that good and we should revel in it.

Jp

Totally agree. Dominance in anything is worth admirering.

[kumo7]

Thank you for this info.

I thought that a spec series never unfold a season like this. By indeed it does.

It is quite important for us not to blame machines for a dominance in a racing series. This is what I think. Human makes the dominance possible.

 

 

--- EDIT

Donno what my morning huore did to my iPhone,... sorry.

Edited by kumo7, 07 July 2023 - 12:56.

[red stick]

No.

[jonpollak]

Totally agree. Dominance in anything is worth admirering.

I wrote that from my phone while drunk watching a Scotch tennis player roll around on the ground.
Jp

Edited by jonpollak, 06 July 2023 - 23:18.

[Seanspeed]

Alonso is 41 (turns 42 this month!) and he's 3rd in F1. The second oldest driver is right behind him in 4th. What a weak grid...

But I mean, Alonso is also one of the best to ever do it in the top echelon of open wheel racing.  It's like saying, "Well look at Tom Brady playing at 42, this means there's no reason to discount David Carr playing in the CFL at the same age".  

 

Scott Dixon tried his hand in F1 and didn't make it and while he's done so well in IndyCar, he's indicative of the general lower road racing talent in IndyCar.  If somebody not even good enough to be a quality F1 driver is at a high age and is still competitive, it definitely does not speak that well of the general talent of the field.  At least when comparing to F1 terms.  

[August]

I really like Alex and think he's a great talent. Actually what I think is one of the best examples of his exceptional talent is having the lap record of Daytona road course, in his first DPi race, alongside full-time prototype guys plus Dixon and Ericsson in the CGR Cadillac. Just put him in any car and he's fast.

That being said, being so dominant this season makes me wonder how much it's about him, how much it's about Ganassi (which has been the strongest team overall), and if he's so much better than his teammates or if the 10 team is outperforming other CGR entries.

In that sense I'd be kinda willing to see him at Arrow McLaren next year. How would he perform against Pato and Rossi? And how would his replacement perform in the 10? (Even though I'd be kinda sad to see him leaving such a promising future at Ganassi.)

[YamahaV10]

Domination seems to be the natural order of things for a lot of the time. 

[ARTGP]

The fact that Palou has such a big lead (2 races worth), just shows that spec cars don't necessarily solve anything. 

Edited by ARTGP, 07 July 2023 - 00:40.

[loki]

The fact that Palou has such a big lead (2 races worth), just shows that spec cars don't necessarily solve anything. 

That’s a narrow context.  Verstappen has won 22 races so far in the 22 and 23 seasons often leading by double digit seconds.   Palou could be a generational talent much like Verstappen, Hamilton, Vettel or Alonso.  Palou is in that position due to winning 4 of 9 races and his consistency.  A couple of early outs could end that.  It’s nothing at all like the domination Red Bull has over the last few seasons.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I recall he had some test laps in a Williams but I didn't think it was anything too serious. Montoya (ex Ganassi) was with Williams at the time, so that was the connection.

Peak-Dixon would have been 2007-09 and I would rate him better than Raikkonen & Button.

The same 2009 that had his teammate Dario Franchitti win the first of three championships in a row?  Does that mean that Franchitti would rate better than Alonso and Hamilton in 2009?

[Nova]

Isn't Paulo to McLaren a sure thing?

 

Not good news for a Honda fan.

[PayasYouRace]

But I mean, Alonso is also one of the best to ever do it in the top echelon of open wheel racing. It's like saying, "Well look at Tom Brady playing at 42, this means there's no reason to discount David Carr playing in the CFL at the same age".

Scott Dixon tried his hand in F1 and didn't make it and while he's done so well in IndyCar, he's indicative of the general lower road racing talent in IndyCar. If somebody not even good enough to be a quality F1 driver is at a high age and is still competitive, it definitely does not speak that well of the general talent of the field. At least when comparing to F1 terms.

I’d say Dixon and Alonso are comparable levels of talents. Dixon hardly got a shot at an F1 drive. He’s not an F1 reject by any means.

[PayasYouRace]

The same 2009 that had his teammate Dario Franchitti win the first of three championships in a row? Does that mean that Franchitti would rate better than Alonso and Hamilton in 2009?

There’s a logical gap in your reasoning there. But Franchitti was certainly one of those generational talents, up there with Alonso and Hamilton, if not necessarily better than them. Remember that he began winning almost immediately in CART when that was at its most competitive, and was always a consistent front runner.

[JimmyClark]

Thank you for this info.

I thought that a spec series never unfold a season like this. By indeed it does.

It is quite important for us to start blaming machines for a dominance in a racing series. This is what I think. Human makes the dominance possible.

Indeed. If cars are all equal, then if you have an exceptional human then of course they will rise above the rest.

Palou is in the zone in Indycar, but that is also by dint of being supremely consistent when his rivals aren't. He's won 4 races out of 9, and one was double points Indy, which in Indycar will mean you will get a large lead as it's incredibly difficult to put that kind of run in.

In F1 Max is doing the same - outrageous consistency in the best car. However, if there were two Perez's in that Red Bull then we'd be saying this is turning into a close season.

[Muppetmad]

Palou didn't win Indy (which might be mistakenly read from how you constructed the sentence), and there wasn't double points this year in any case. I say this not to be pedantic, but because there are a fair few posters here who openly admit they aren't following the series closely, so I don't want any confusion to enter the mix.

Edited by Muppetmad, 07 July 2023 - 07:33.

[MagnyCours2000]

Palou is having an amazing season, but perhaps he's also seen lesser seasons in just as great a car? He wasn't exacty making a big difference over Dixon and Ericsson last year (Ericsson kind of bullied him at times), in my vague recollection. To me he's been difficult to gauge or predict. I didn't see such a dominant streak coming. He may well at his peak be a Hamilton-level driver, but with slightly shorter bursts of brilliance. Hamilton always seems to have at least one string of about a handful "meh" races, Palou might for instance ruin an otherwise great season in his off periods.

The way Grosjean immediately became a front runner on pace (less so on consistency), the way Ericsson (go Marcus!) became a front runner even within Chip Ganassi...does put an question to the average level of Indycar, even at the front.
Dixon didn't impress me too much with his pace in the last few season, but he did grab a bunch of points. Ericcson seems like Dixon to me, not exactly collecting poles, but somehow clawing his way to the front. 

What does speak a lot for Palou is how with the absurd drama himself, Chip and Mclaren managed to put on, it far but hurt his racing when the drama peaked. He clearly managed to keep it together, and he's not getting all these wins in the team he's been desperate to get away from.

[JimmyClark]

Palou didn't win Indy (which might be mistakenly read from how you constructed the sentence), and there wasn't double points this year in any case. I say this not to be pedantic, but because there are a fair few posters here who openly admit they aren't following the series closely, so I don't want any confusion to enter the mix.

D'oh, you're right of course - My early morning haze deprived Josef of that accolade (I sadly have only been following indy via YouTube highlights this year due to a slightly odd living situation so less is sticking in my head).

I didn't realise there was no double points for the Indy 500 this year though?

Anyway, my point stands (and thanks for correcting me ) - in a series where cars are close, if a driver is fast and consistent then they can stretch ahead quite quickly. In F1 you'd hope this wouldn't happen as it's supposedly the "best drivers in the world" (though we know that's not true), but if we did equalise car performance then there's still the chance there will be a human element that will dominate, backing up the post I originally quoted.

Edited by JimmyClark, 07 July 2023 - 07:54.

[Risil]

Palou wasn't at his best last year but he put on a clinic at the end of the year at Laguna Seca.

[Risil]

Domination seems to be the natural order of things for a lot of the time.

I reckon what we're seeing by comparing Indy and F1 is the difference between the best driver when equipment is pretty equal, and the best driver when they have a big equipment advantage.

[Clrnc]

Indycar points are a little different, Palou has a huge lead simply because of consistency, always near the front. 

 

But yes, big leads are never surprising in motorsports and in fact more common than not. Which is why 2021 was such a nice and rare season

[SenorSjon]

Reverse grids? Didn't we have a topic on that. And killed it with fire? I can understand it in lower tier classes so people in higher classes can see drivers perform fighting back to the front in the pack. But in the top tier classes? Hell no. 

 

And we try that with Verstappen for a year now. Result is he wins from all kinds of different starting positions.

 

2022 Hungary 10th

2022 Spa 14th

2022 Monza 7th

2023 Miami 9th

Edited by SenorSjon, 07 July 2023 - 08:28.

[FirstnameLastname]

Horner urges FIA to act to stop one team dominating F1

https://www.motorspo...ination/490830/

[Collombin]

Max +54.7% over Perez
Palou +41.2% over Dixon

Want some historical grounds for hope?

Midway through the 1971 champcar season, Al Unser +168% over Ruby (and no, I don't mean 68%).

Unser finished 4th in the championship. And he didn't miss any races.

Edited by Collombin, 07 July 2023 - 08:59.

[milestone 11]

Palou wasn't at his best last year but he put on a clinic at the end of the year at Laguna Seca.

I give up, is that some predictive text version of classic?

[Risil]

I give up, is that some predictive text version of classic?

"Put on a clinic" = outdrove everyone and won by a mile. I'm not sure who used to say it. Is it a Robin Miller-ism that osmosed into my brain?

[PayasYouRace]

Palou wasn't at his best last year but he put on a clinic at the end of the year at Laguna Seca.

I despise that phrase by the way. He drove a textbook race, not healing the sick.

[noikeee]

I’d say Dixon and Alonso are comparable levels of talents. Dixon hardly got a shot at an F1 drive. He’s not an F1 reject by any means.

 

 

There’s a logical gap in your reasoning there. But Franchitti was certainly one of those generational talents, up there with Alonso and Hamilton, if not necessarily better than them. Remember that he began winning almost immediately in CART when that was at its most competitive, and was always a consistent front runner.

 

yeah absolutely not lol

 

https://en.wikipedia...ee_Championship

[Risil]

I despise that phrase by the way. He drove a textbook race, not healing the sick.

He healed my jadedness about whether anyone is good in Indycar anymore

[milestone 11]

"Put on a clinic" = outdrove everyone and won by a mile. I'm not sure who used to say it. Is it a Robin Miller-ism that osmosed into my brain?

Never heard it before. Still learning.

Edited by milestone 11, 07 July 2023 - 09:19.

[noriaki]

But I mean, Alonso is also one of the best to ever do it in the top echelon of open wheel racing.  It's like saying, "Well look at Tom Brady playing at 42, this means there's no reason to discount David Carr playing in the CFL at the same age".  

 

Scott Dixon tried his hand in F1 and didn't make it and while he's done so well in IndyCar, he's indicative of the general lower road racing talent in IndyCar.  If somebody not even good enough to be a quality F1 driver is at a high age and is still competitive, it definitely does not speak that well of the general talent of the field.  At least when comparing to F1 terms.  

 

Saying "Dixon didn't make it in F1" is as out of touch as saying "Alonso didn't make it in Indycar"

[milestone 11]

Want some historical grounds for hope?
Midway through the 1971 champcar season, Al Unser +168% over Ruby (and no, I don't mean 68%).
Unser finished 4th in the championship. And he didn't miss any races.

What was Reutemann's lead on Piquet after the British GP in '81, 60ish % ?

[milestone 11]

"Put on a clinic" = outdrove everyone and won by a mile. I'm not sure who used to say it. Is it a Robin Miller-ism that osmosed into my brain?

https://english.stac...put-on-a-clinic I think I understand why I've never heard it before.

Edited by milestone 11, 07 July 2023 - 09:29.