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Best and worst timed driver moves


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#1 HighwayStar

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 13:24

Since it was confirmed that Daniel Ricciardo will be replacing Nyck De Vries at Alpha Tauri from the Hungarian GP onwards, I've noticed comments suggesting that De Vries would have been better accepting a deal to drive for Williams for this year (I tend to agree, as his previous ties with Mercedes would have been more useful and I would have expected him to at least see out the season). This got me thinking on a tangent about drivers who switched teams at the exact right time, and conversely those drivers who could not have timed their team changes worse.

 

For a driver making the move at the right time, I am primarily thinking about examples where a driver moved from what up to that point had been a more competitive team than the one he switched to, but where his new team improved and/or his old team declined after the move. For a driver switching teams at the wrong time, I am considering the opposite scenario (in other words, the driver's career would likely have been better staying with his previous team).

 

I will start with a few (mostly relatively recent) examples of well timed moves, and give one example of a badly timed move (on the grounds that I think this particular case takes some beating!).

 

Well timed driver moves

 

Lewis Hamilton - McLaren to Mercedes (2013). This is probably the most obvious example of the modern era, but it is obvious for a reason. While Mercedes had achieved their first GP win as a constructor since 1955 during the 2012 season, this looked a very risky move for Hamilton as the team dropped down the order as the year progressed. By contrast, McLaren had a very competitive car that won as many races as the WCC winning team (Red Bull) and, despite operational and reliability issues which meant the team could not ultimately maintain its championship challenge to the end of the season, seemed well placed to continue to win races. However, the 2013 Mercedes (although a notorious tyre eater) was better than expected, allowing Hamilton and Rosberg to win a total of three races, while McLaren's new car concept produced a dud that failed to deliver even a single podium finish and finished well behind the top four teams. I think the results for the respective teams in the seasons that follow speak for themselves and there is now absolutely no doubt that Hamilton made the correct decision.

 

Fernando Alonso - Renault to McLaren (2007). While several of Alonso's subsequent career moves have, I think he got this one spot on. It's worth remembering that this switch was announced at the end of 2005, when McLaren had an extremely fast (if unreliable) car. In 2006 it looked like Alonso might have made the wrong decision as he won his second consecutive title for Renault while McLaren finished the season winless and a distant third in the WCC, scoring just over half Renault's points tally. However, McLaren adapted much better to the new 'control' Bridgestone tyres for 2007 than Renault and returned to competitive form, allowing Alonso to continue winning races and fall just short of the title even with his rookie team mate proving far more of a nuisance than he'd anticipated! The Renault team fell back into the midfield, finishing with just a single podium and picking up most of their points from minor placings. Alonso would have stood no chance of defending his title in the 2007 Renault, so even allowing for his subsequent spectacular fall out with McLaren this was the correct move.

 

Jenson Button - Brawn to McLaren (2010). I fully expected Button to stay with the team that helped make him a world champion and was very surprised when it was announced that he would be joining Hamilton at McLaren, who had admittedly recovered fairly well from a shocking start to 2009. However, Button's switch proved correct, as he performed well overall against Hamilton (especially in 2011) and added another eight victories to his tally, burnishing his credentials as a worthy world champion, whereas Mercedes fell back towards the pack and won just one race with a handful of other podiums in the next three years. Brawn's lack of funding during the 2009 season perhaps makes this example more predictable than the ones above, but Button's brave move was vindicated.

 

 

Badly timed driver moves

 

Fernando Alonso - Ferrari to McLaren (2015). Where to start with this one? The 2014 Ferrari was far from impressive and I think the fact that they finished above McLaren at all had a lot to do with Alonso's impressive results, including two podiums, and this combined with his utter demolition of Kimi Raikkonen reflect better on his capabilities than the car's. McLaren didn't shine either that year truth be told, being outperformed as the leading Mercedes customer team by Williams, but their 2014 season was positively glorious compared to the unmitigated disaster that was 2015, with the underpowered and unreliable Honda engine married to a chassis that seemed to be nowhere near as good as the team claimed it was. Making matters worse for Alonso, Ferrari improved significantly and while still unable to consistently challenge the dominant Mercedes pair, finished runners up with Vettel taking three wins and a comfortable third in the WDC, while Alonso toiled with only fifth place in the Hungarian GP as respite. Even that result came in a race won by Vettel! I would argue that this is the single worst driver switch of the 21st century to date.



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#2 TheFish

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 13:38

The Button one is interesting. There's no doubt his stock increased by faring well against Hamilton. Usually a bit slower, but managed to get some great results despite this (first 2 wins came partly through tyre choices in wet/dry conditions) but if he'd stayed at Brawn/Mercedes, would he have stayed long enough to battle for the 2014 title? He may have ended up as a multiple time WDC.



#3 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 13:40

Alonso back to Renault in 2008 was perhaps best on a personal level, it was not on a performance one.



#4 WonderWoman61

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 13:41

Berger and Alesi to Benetton in 1996. That team was up the creek once Schumacher left.

#5 aportinga

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 13:44

Berger and Alesi to Benetton in 1996. That team was up the creek once Schumacher left.

 

I read that the car was impossible to drive based on how MS prefered his set up - not so much the team.

 

I don't really think that Alesi was the ideal "development" driver. I cannot think of a car he really turned around like Schumacher did at Benetton and later Ferrari. 

 

Berger may be in the same boat as well and I believe some of the engineering staff did leave Benetton for Ferrari.

 

Realistically where were they going to go in 1996? 



#6 StevoCBR

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 13:58

Carlos Reutemann from Ferrari to Lotus in 1979 (bad), then to Williams 1980 (good)

Nelson Piquet from Williams to Lotus in 1988


Edited by StevoCBR, 12 July 2023 - 14:01.


#7 Dan333SP

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:07

An in-season move but Fisichella jumping from the Force India into the Ferrari in 2009 basically ended his career. He'd wanted to be a Ferrari driver all his life and it's just a shame he went there late in his career with virtually no preparation in a very difficult car during a very close season. 



#8 WonderWoman61

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:08

Ayrton Senna to Williams of course, even before the Imola tragedy.

#9 WonderWoman61

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:09

I read that the car was impossible to drive based on how MS prefered his set up - not so much the team.
 
I don't really think that Alesi was the ideal "development" driver. I cannot think of a car he really turned around like Schumacher did at Benetton and later Ferrari. 
 
Berger may be in the same boat as well and I believe some of the engineering staff did leave Benetton for Ferrari.
 
Realistically where were they going to go in 1996?


Still adds up to an ill-timed move in hindsight

#10 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:13

Still adds up to an ill-timed move in hindsight

 

Was it? I'm not sure the '96 Ferrari was much better than the Benetton. There are several people who think MS could've been champion in it.



#11 F1matt

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:15

Keke Rosberg leaving Williams to join McLaren was puzzling, he must have known how good the Honda was becoming and the team were coping very well after Frank's accident yet he chose to go to McLaren and become Alain Prost's team mate with an ageing Porsche TAG engine.  



#12 WonderWoman61

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:18

Was it? I'm not sure the '96 Ferrari was much better than the Benetton. There are several people who think MS could've been champion in it.


Well I think it does, look what happened to Benetton and Ferrari in the following years.

#13 Collombin

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:18

Frank hadn't even had his accident at that point.

I suppose Gurney would have been 1966 and 1967 world champion if he had stayed at Brabham, yet on the other hand I doubt he had any regrets about it either.

#14 Dan333SP

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:19

Ayrton Senna to Williams of course, even before the Imola tragedy.

 

Not sure this is true at all if we're leaving out the accident. The 1994/95 Mclarens were disasters, Senna likely would have won at least one of those titles and if he'd stayed with them through '96/97 he'd have 6 championships. 

 

If you're considering his accident, then yes, any driver move that resulted in the death of a driver would obviously be the worst. 



#15 WonderWoman61

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:21

Eddie Irvine left a Ferrari team that went on to win both titles for the next 5 seasons for Jaguar and we all know how that turned out.

#16 F1matt

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:21

Frank hadn't even had his accident at that point.

I suppose Gurney would have been 1966 and 1967 world champion if he had stayed at Brabham, yet on the other hand I doubt he had any regrets about it either.

 

 

You are right, I got my 85 & 86 mixed up. 



#17 F1matt

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:22

Eddie Irvine left a Ferrari team that went on to win both titles for the next 5 seasons for Jaguar and we all know how that turned out.

 

Was the option open for him to stay at Ferrari? 



#18 WonderWoman61

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:27

Was the option open for him to stay at Ferrari?

In hindsight, bad move, regardless.

(1200th Post)

Edited by WonderWoman61, 12 July 2023 - 14:27.


#19 aportinga

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:30

Was it? I'm not sure the '96 Ferrari was much better than the Benetton. There are several people who think MS could've been champion in it.

 

This...

 

The 1996 was garbage and in the hand of Alesi and Berger it may have been another 92/93.

 

And as mentioned - the car set up for Benetton was terrible in that it was so suited to Schumacher. I believe Alesi has said as such.


Edited by aportinga, 12 July 2023 - 14:33.


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#20 mclarensmps

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:32

An interesting one for me is Kimi moving from McLaren to Ferrari. 

He won the '07 championship at Ferrari, but I think that was more due to McLaren falling over itself, while having a superior car. Would Kimi have won it in the McLaren as well? He sure deserved to have at least one title at McLaren considering his stellar form with the team. 



#21 Dunc

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:33

David Coulthard - McLaren to Red Bull: Not a great move in terms of the car but this was the move that turned him from a solid but unspectacular driver into the leading figure in F1 he has become. It also gave Sniff Petrol a lot of material!



#22 mclarensmps

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:40

David Coulthard - McLaren to Red Bull: Not a great move in terms of the car but this was the move that turned him from a solid but unspectacular driver into the leading figure in F1 he has become. It also gave Sniff Petrol a lot of material!

Hmmm, I thought he was a leading personality before he joined Red Bull to be honest. THIS YEAR IS MY YEAR is probably the most longstanding meme in F1 history, and he never even said it!



#23 F1Frog

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:41

John Surtees leaving Lotus in 1960 perhaps, although Innes Ireland played a part in that I think Surtees could have stayed if he really wanted to. But then it depends if Lotus had focussed their team around Surtees or Clark as the Lotuses were heavily built around Clark’s unusual driving style, and Surtees looked more promising in 1960.

If Chris Amon had stayed at Ferrari he could have won the title in 1970, rather than never winning a race. But Ickx had a lot of bad luck that year and so if bad luck was to be had it would have gone to Amon.

And it is arguable whether Fangio’s driver moves were all well-timed, or if he would have taken those titles in any of the top cars in the 1950s.

#24 F1matt

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:45

David Coulthard - McLaren to Red Bull: Not a great move in terms of the car but this was the move that turned him from a solid but unspectacular driver into the leading figure in F1 he has become. It also gave Sniff Petrol a lot of material!

 

 

I would put him in the same bracket as Irvine in that his time had ran out at McLaren. Not that I think he was made that welcome when he was there...



#25 P123

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:46

HHF from Williams to Jordan. 



#26 eibyyz

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:47

Outside of F1, but if Mario had stayed at Penske after 1980 he and Mears would have owned that decade.



#27 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:48

HHF from Williams to Jordan.


Was this one optional though?

#28 F1matt

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:49

Carlos Reutemann from Ferrari to Lotus in 1979 (bad), then to Williams 1980 (good)

Nelson Piquet from Williams to Lotus in 1988

 

 

Wasn't Piquet's move pretty much down to Honda and the value of having no.1 on the car?

 

Emerson Fittipaldi leaving McLaren to join his brothers team and Jacques Villeneuve leaving Williams to join BAR need adding to the list. 



#29 F1matt

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 14:50

HHF from Williams to Jordan. 

 

 

It was a good move for HHF, he rebuilt his career, JV destroyed him and the William's hierarchy didn't rate him. 



#30 FortiFord

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 15:11

Vettel to Red Bull (2009) - he joined them just as they moved from midfield team to front running team thanks to the reg changes. 

Vettel to Ferrari (2015) - he joined them just has they became the 2nd best team, and they retained that position for most of the subsequent years. You can also look at it from the perspective of, if had stayed at Red Bull he risked being outperformed by Ricciardo again and his stock dropping further or even having to face a young Max in 2016/being kicked out for Max. 

 

Coulthard to Mclaren (1996) - you could argue this either way. Initially it seemed like a wrong move as the FW18 would've been DC's best shot at a championship. However, if things played out as they did (with Newey leaving) then moving to Mclaren allowed DC multiple years in race/championship winning cars which he would not have had at Williams. 



#31 WonderWoman61

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 15:12

Fernando Alonso would probably fit nicely into this thread in someway or another

#32 MaxCrazyEddieCayer

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 15:21

Eddie Irvine left a Ferrari team that went on to win both titles for the next 5 seasons for Jaguar and we all know how that turned out.


I think Edmund Jr would be the first one to tell you it was a great deal, as Eddie was more into making Dough at that point. He’s still living off that move.

#33 juicy sushi

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 15:26

Alesi to Ferrari is probably a big one, although would he have really thrived at Williams?  Zanardi to Williams was definitely an error, since he didn't seem to be remotely able to get a time out of the 1998-era F1 cars.  Never really been clear why that was such a problem for him, but given that he left the top CART team after 2 consecutive titles, he probably threw away at least one more, and likely would have had a completely different career path than the one that unfolded.

 

Then again, Zanardi staying means we wouldn't have gotten Montoya's 1999 CART season, which was definitely one for the ages as far as fan entertainment went. 



#34 WonderWoman61

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 15:26

I think Edmund Jr would be the first one to tell you it was a great deal, as Eddie was more into making Dough at that point. He’s still living off that move.


Well it paid off in one way at least but it certainly destroyed his F1 career.

Edited by WonderWoman61, 12 July 2023 - 15:27.


#35 NewMrMe

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 15:37

Well timed - *Ignoring the reason for leaving.

 

Prost - Renault to McLaren 1984.

 

Left a team that had been 4th, 3rd, 3rd and 2nd in the constructor's championship in the previous 4 seasons for one that had only been in the top 4 once in the previous 6.

That guise of the Renault F1 team would never win again whilst McLaren would take 5 driver's (3 for Prost) and 4 constructor's titles in Prost's 6 year stint with them.



#36 WonderWoman61

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 15:37

Outside F1, Tim Harvey leaving BMW, with whom he'd just won the 1992 British Touring Car Championship, for incoming Renault in 1993, he won the 2nd round of the season at a wet Donington Park but only scored 7 points in all the other races. BMW, by contrast, dominated with 8 wins from 17 races and their drivers finishing 1st and 2nd overall. To further rub salt in the wound, Harvey's replacement Jo Winkelhock won the title at his first attempt.

#37 Dunc

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 15:43

Hmmm, I thought he was a leading personality before he joined Red Bull to be honest. THIS YEAR IS MY YEAR is probably the most longstanding meme in F1 history, and he never even said it!

 

The Crazy Dave persona wouldn't have come about without the move and the subsequent mid-life crisis he seemed to go through. We should all be grateful.



#38 Anderis

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 15:48

Best timed moves would be pretty much every time someone had signed with a team that he later won championships with.



#39 mclarensmps

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 15:49

The Crazy Dave persona wouldn't have come about without the move and the subsequent mid-life crisis he seemed to go through. We should all be grateful.

I wouldn't let the corporate McLaren persona fool you. David had (has) a crazy Monte Carlo playboy lifestyle outside of F1 even in his McLaren days!



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#40 juicy sushi

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 15:59

Oh, another good one would be Mika Hakkinen leaving Lotus for a McLaren test driver gig.  No one could have foreseen that Andretti would flame out that badly, but Mika was still in the right place at the right time.



#41 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 16:09

Alonso to McLaren in 07 could have been a cracking move and probably would have been 9 times out of 10, unfortunately the rookie he was paired with was pretty good. If he’d had a ‘normal’ rookie or number 2, he’d have surely won in 07 and 08. Probably a fairly similar story if Kimi had stayed.



#42 solochamp07

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 16:14

Alonso’s move to Aston Martin is an interesting one and current struggles aside, could turn out to be a big one.

Jacques’ move to BAR torpedoed such a promising career. He and Montoya would have been epic teammates at Williams bmw.

#43 Risil

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 16:16

Realistically where were they going to go in 1996?


They should have got a couple of talented youngsters in the mould of Giancarlo Fisichella and Alexander Wurz.

#44 Risil

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 16:18

Oh, another good one would be Mika Hakkinen leaving Lotus for a McLaren test driver gig. No one could have foreseen that Andretti would flame out that badly, but Mika was still in the right place at the right time.


Really!

#45 juicy sushi

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 16:21

Really!

I think that no one at the time had put together the testing restrictions, and driving characteristics of the McLaren being that terrible a combination.



#46 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 16:21

Piquet leaving Brabham for Williams in 1986 is a good candidate.

#47 Cornholio

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 16:22

Bad: Roy Salvadori to Aston Martin for 1959? Maybe I'm being simplistic (reliability, perhaps slightly different equipment as Climax were expanding their old F2 engine) but he'd comfortably outscored Brabham as Cooper teammates the year before...

 

Good: Alan Jones from Shadow to Williams comes to mind. At the time it probably felt like swapping one midfield team for another, and initially teammate Patrese opting to join the breakaway Arrows might have seemed the better move, but within a year and a half he had the quickest car in the field and another year and a half later he was champion.



#48 AncientLurker

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 16:24

Fangio to Collins' car in Monza 1956


Edited by AncientLurker, 12 July 2023 - 16:24.


#49 WonderWoman61

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 16:44

Phil Hill and Giancarlo Baghetti from Ferrari to the Italian ATS in 1963 was certainly a bad move, their F1 careers never recovered.

#50 F1matt

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Posted 12 July 2023 - 17:03

Outside F1, Tim Harvey leaving BMW, with whom he'd just won the 1992 British Touring Car Championship, for incoming Renault in 1993, he won the 2nd round of the season at a wet Donington Park but only scored 7 points in all the other races. BMW, by contrast, dominated with 8 wins from 17 races and their drivers finishing 1st and 2nd overall. To further rub salt in the wound, Harvey's replacement Jo Winkelhock won the title at his first attempt.

 

 

Two things jump into my mind here:

 

1. Tim Harvey drove for Vic Lee Motorsport, I don't think they were the official BMW team although they had a large budget and had success due to a massive testing program at Zandvoort in the Netherlands. 

 

2. Maybe Tim Harvey had an inkling why they tested at Zandvroot and how a privateer team could have such a large budget and thought it best to move while his stock was high.