67 replies to this topic

[Pete_f1]

For this weekends Hungarian GP all drivers will have to use:

Q1 Hard tyre
Q2 Medium tyre
Q3 Soft tyre

Thoughts?

[Afterburner]

Why?

[Risil]

Is there a news story for this?

[Grippy]

https://www.skysport...at-hungarian-gp

[GrumpyYoungMan]

In order to spice up the show, no doubt… 🤪🙄🤪

[FirstnameLastname]

Top 10 in championship have to use the hardest of all compounds in all 3 quali sessions

Bottom 10 get to use the softest compound.

There you go Liberty, you can have that one for free

[ANF]

Is there a news story for this?

There's even an old thread https://forums.autos...re-rules-imola/ which was started before Imola, the cancelled grand prix that was supposed to feature these new rules!

[pdac]

For this weekends Hungarian GP all drivers will have to use:

Q1 Hard tyre
Q2 Medium tyre
Q3 Soft tyre

Thoughts?

 

I'd prefer:

 

Q1 Hard

Q2 Hard

Q3 Hard

Race Hard

[Pingu Pi]

Top 10 in championship have to use the hardest of all compounds in all 3 quali sessions

Bottom 10 get to use the softest compound.

There you go Liberty, you can have that one for free

 

 

 

You're going to be running Liberty one day....

[TomNokoe]

It's not just new tyre rules for qualifying, the total weekend allocation has been reduced from 13 to 11.

 

Normal allocation

2H, 3M, 8S

 

Hungary (and Monza) allocation

3H, 4M, 4S

 

The same rule applies regarding taking a maximum 7 total sets into qualifying and the race, which means drivers/teams will have to spread only 4 (or maybe 5) sets of tyres across three practice sessions, instead of the usual 6.

 

An example of how this might work:

 

FP1 H
FP2 M
FP3 S-S

Q1 H-H
Q2 M-M
Q3 S-S

 

This would leave 1x new M, 2x used H, 2x used M, 1x used S (Q3 set is given back to Pirelli) for Sunday.

 

Alternatively, some teams may choose to sacrifice the spare new M and use it in practice, instead.

 

FP1 H
FP2 M-S
FP3 M-S

 

Q1 H-H
Q2 M-M
Q3 S-S

 

Some teams may try to get through Q1 and Q2 using only one set of Hard or Medium, but they will still carry the extra sets with them, just in case they need a second run.

 

Pirelli are bringing their softest in the range this year, which is unusual for Hungary, and it's also forecast to be 30c. If it stays dry it will be at least a two stop, maybe a three, so anyone who can save tyres through practice/qualifying will have a big advantage.

Edited by TomNokoe, 17 July 2023 - 20:33.

[ARTGP]

It's not just new tyre rules for qualifying, the total weekend allocation has been reduced from 13 to 11.

 

Normal allocation

2H, 3M, 8S

 

Hungary (and Monza) allocation

3H, 4M, 4S

 

The same rule applies regarding taking a maximum 7 total sets into qualifying and the race, which means drivers/teams will have to spread only 4 (or maybe 5) sets of tyres across three practice sessions.

 

An example of how this might work:

 

FP1 H
FP2 M
FP3 S-S

Q1 H-H
Q2 M-M
Q3 S-S

 

This would leave 1x new M, 2x used H, 2x used M, 1x used S (Q3 set is given back to Pirelli).

 

Another example, sacrifing the spare new M to use in practice, instead.

 

FP1 H
FP2 M-S
FP3 M-S

 

Q1 H-H
Q2 M-M
Q3 S-S

 

Some teams may try to get through Q1 and Q2 using only one set, but they will still carry the extra sets with them, just in case they need a second run.

 

Last year the Hard tire was absolute **** here. 

 

What is the point of giving them more of them?   Are they trying to encourage even more 1 stop races than they already are?  What do they think is going to happen if people have no softs or mediums left? 3 stoppers on hards? /s

 

What is the point of reducing the number tires? Do they want even less running in free practice? Do they want 1 stoppers in the races? 

 

Why not just have Pirelli make an ultra-hard tire that last from free practice all through the race. 0 stops. 

Edited by ARTGP, 17 July 2023 - 20:33.

[TomNokoe]

Last year the Hard tire was absolute **** here. 

 

Last year the Hard was the C2, this year C3. Also forecast to be much, much, much warmer, so this particular issue won't happen again.

[ARTGP]

Last year the Hard was the C2, this year C3. Also forecast to be much, much, much warmer, so this particular issue won't happen again.

 

One would hope, but when they inevitably try and bring this "recipe" to all of the circuits, and the hard tire is **** again, what then? 

[Beamer]

I've managed to stay away from the knee-jerk 'what kind of stupid rule changes are this' for 35 years of watching f1. Then came 2023...

Why? Just why? What does this achieve? ...

[TomNokoe]

One would hope, but when they inevitably try and bring this "recipe" to all of the circuits, and the hard tire is **** again, what then? 

Perhaps, I think the Hard being exceptionally poor in Hungary last year was a combination of unseasonably cold temperatures and a green track.

 

My main concern is general tyre usage. Practice will be very quiet with only one set of tyres per session, especially considering said tyre set will wear out very quickly in the heat, so it will be difficult for the teams to really dial themselves in. This is why I think some teams will risk the extra set in FP2 versus saving it for Sunday (and then maybe try and save their second Q1/Q2 set instead), simply to get some solid setup work done on Friday.

Edited by TomNokoe, 17 July 2023 - 20:44.

[Bendo]

I've managed to stay away from the knee-jerk 'what kind of stupid rule changes are this' for 35 years of watching f1. Then came 2023...

Why? Just why? What does this achieve? ...

It's stated aim of less tyre usage therefore less waste.

[Astandahl]

This will fix Formula 1 and global warming. I'm sure of it.

Edited by Astandahl, 17 July 2023 - 21:12.

[ARTGP]

Perhaps, I think the Hard being exceptionally poor in Hungary last year was a combination of unseasonably cold temperatures and a green track.

 

My main concern is general tyre usage. Practice will be very quiet with only one set of tyres per session, especially considering said tyre set will wear out very quickly in the heat, so it will be difficult for the teams to really dial themselves in. This is why I think some teams will risk the extra set in FP2 versus saving it for Sunday (and then maybe try and save their second Q1/Q2 set instead), simply to get some solid setup work done on Friday.

 

That's also a great point. There will inevitably be less running. 

 

The big issue for me is the reduction of the soft tires. 4 sets of soft tires for an entire GP weekend is just....backwards and wrong.  We will have far fewer quali sims, and far fewer actual competitions in Q3 because most of the grid won't be able to do 2 competitive runs in Q3 due to usage of tires in previous sessions. 

 

If anything, they should keep the 8 sets of softs, and cut back on the medium and hard tires, not the softs. Most races are 1 stoppers anyway and at least that keeps the qualifying sessions actually competitive as opposed to 1 driver having a 7 tenth margin because he had new softs and no one else did....and maybe someone having to use softs in the race encourages 2 stop and 3 stop races.

 

Qualifying on hard tires is exactly the kind of nonsensical, paradoxical, butchery of F1 that I feared would come...Soft tires are for qualifying. Hard tires are for races. It's a rather elementary formula that has worked for decades. 

Edited by ARTGP, 17 July 2023 - 21:24.

[ANF]

I've managed to stay away from the knee-jerk 'what kind of stupid rule changes are this' for 35 years of watching f1. Then came 2023...

Why? Just why? What does this achieve? ...

It may save 3,680 tyres every year:

 

The intention of the 'Alternative Tyre Allocation' trial is to see if fewer tyres can be taken to Grand Prix weekends.

Under the trial, the number of dry tyre sets available to each car for the weekend is reduced from 13 to 11.

This amounts to 40 sets - or 160 tyres - being saved over the course of the weekend. If this was implemented at all 23 races this season, it would save 3,680 tyres.

https://www.skysport...at-hungarian-gp

Edited by ANF, 17 July 2023 - 23:00.

[ANF]

Let's be honest, F1 does waste an awful lot of tyres just because of knock-out qualifying on soft tyres.

[TomNokoe]

Let's be honest, F1 does waste an awful lot of tyres just because of knock-out qualifying on soft tyres.

And the silly regulations that don't allow tyres to be re-used in other sessions.

[ARTGP]

Let's be honest, F1 does waste an awful lot of tyres just because of knock-out qualifying on soft tyres.

 

They also waste an awful lot of fuel when they could just have single lap qualifying.  Where does it end? Should they just get 1 set of Hards to run the entire weekend? Why not aim for that then? A street tire can get 40,000 km out of it. 

Edited by ARTGP, 18 July 2023 - 00:25.

[ARTGP]

With that said, i think Q1 will be a shocker.  Many of the quicker teams struggle to warm their tires (Merc, RB). Others are awful on the hardest compounds (Ferrari).  Q1 will probably see cars fueled like it's a wet session, just doing lap after lap to try and warm the tires. Laptimes will cycle with different people cycling to the top every lap. 

Edited by ARTGP, 18 July 2023 - 00:35.

[loki]

I'd prefer:

 

Q1 Hard

Q2 Hard

Q3 Hard

Race Hard

This^^^^^^^   1000 times

 

Enough tires to amply run in each session but hard with a fair amount of degradation.  Still likely need both inters and full wets but the same hard slick at each race.  If you used full wets for inters you’d burn them up so it wouldn’t save any tires and inters wouldn't be able to move the water in a moderate rain.

[MikeTekRacing]

This^^^^^^^ 1000 times

Enough tires to amply run in each session but hard with a fair amount of degradation. Still likely need both inters and full wets but the same hard slick at each race. If you used full wets for inters you’d burn them up so it wouldn’t save any tires and inters wouldn't be able to move the water in a moderate rain.

We have the current tyre formula after a famous Canadian race where tyres had crazy degradation and people said it was fun.

Pirelli was then asked to design tyres that are unpredictable and wear similarly to produce the same effect

[BoDarvelle]

They also waste an awful lot of fuel when they could just have single lap qualifying.  Where does it end? Should they just get 1 set of Hards to run the entire weekend? Why not aim for that then? A street tire can get 40,000 km out of it. 

 

Having races only in Europe would save lots of fuel. Think of the polar bears!

[IrvTheSwerve]

I’m just fed up with the rules and session format changing nearly every single race now. It’s starting to lose me a bit.   

[CoolBreeze]

I feel they should have 2 sets of hard tyres for the entire qualifying session. And then just Medium and Softs for the race.

[Wuzak]

We have the current tyre formula after a famous Canadian race where tyres had crazy degradation and people said it was fun.

Pirelli was then asked to design tyres that are unpredictable and wear similarly to produce the same effect

 

The requirements changed a few years ago.

 

Now the tyres are supposed to be able to be pushed for a stint.

Edited by Wuzak, 18 July 2023 - 06:32.

[blacky]

I think the tyre rules are only a problem if it is too hot and the sets don't last long enough.

 

FP3 is most of the time a waste of tyre sets, using 2 sets of softs for only 5-6 laps each and hand them back. With the rule that only 1 set must be returned after FP1, 1 set after FP2 and 2 sets after FP3, I guess teams will start to use 1 set in more than just one session. Resulting in only using 5 sets FP1-FP3 (2x soft, 2x medium and 1x hard) having 2 new sets of each compound left. Some may speculate not being in Q3, using an additional set of softs in FP.

[Goron3]

Last year the Hard tire was absolute **** here.

What is the point of giving them more of them? Are they trying to encourage even more 1 stop races than they already are? What do they think is going to happen if people have no softs or mediums left? 3 stoppers on hards? /s

What is the point of reducing the number tires? Do they want even less running in free practice? Do they want 1 stoppers in the races?

Why not just have Pirelli make an ultra-hard tire that last from free practice all through the race. 0 stops.

Giving them more Hard tyres means they can make the tyres softer across the range, so we end up with more pit stops in race.

This is the first year Pirelli have taken C3-5 to Hungary, it's usually c2-4.

Likewise they planned the same at Imola (C5-3) before it got rained off.

It's a shame they didn't trial this at Australia and Miami because the Hard tyre was bulletproof there.

Apparently Monza is also getting this tyre allocation. I'm hoping that means they go a step softer there too.

I find it odd this is billed as a Qualifying change because the race is impacted more.

[Goron3]

That's also a great point. There will inevitably be less running.

The big issue for me is the reduction of the soft tires. 4 sets of soft tires for an entire GP weekend is just....backwards and wrong. We will have far fewer quali sims, and far fewer actual competitions in Q3 because most of the grid won't be able to do 2 competitive runs in Q3 due to usage of tires in previous sessions.

If anything, they should keep the 8 sets of softs, and cut back on the medium and hard tires, not the softs. Most races are 1 stoppers anyway and at least that keeps the qualifying sessions actually competitive as opposed to 1 driver having a 7 tenth margin because he had new softs and no one else did....and maybe someone having to use softs in the race encourages 2 stop and 3 stop races.

Qualifying on hard tires is exactly the kind of nonsensical, paradoxical, butchery of F1 that I feared would come...Soft tires are for qualifying. Hard tires are for races. It's a rather elementary formula that has worked for decades.

The regular allocation already cuts back on Hards and Mediums, which is the reason why we have so many 1 stop races. Pirelli can't go too soft on the tyres because most drivers only have 1 hard for the GP, so it's got to be a durable tyre.

I'm sure we'll get a 2-3 stopper this weekend.

[1player]

Honestly it sounds a little artificial, but fewer tyres and fewer hard tyres makes for more stops during the race, and that's alright with me. I'll reserve my judgement until after this weekend.

[RedRabbit]

It may save 3,680 tyres every year:

Not bringing 3 compounds to every race would save even more.

[Beamer]

It may save 3,680 tyres every year:

 

 

If we had Sprint Races every race...? 

But fair is fair... The tires is the main environmental issue for F1. After all, they already fixed the bio-fuel issue, the needless flying up and down continents by grouping the races in a smart way, the needless lightning of the circuits for the night races, the......

[RedRabbit]

Another issue, that I am sure that I read somewhere that the unused tires are simply left behind because of the cost to transport back to factory.

It's again such a convoluted way to "solve" another self created problem.

It will likely make qualifying even more predictable now, with less chance of a small team getting into Q3 by burning up all their soft tires while bigger teams risk getting through on mediums, or used softs, to save new ones.

[Goron3]

Another issue, that I am sure that I read somewhere that the unused tires are simply left behind because of the cost to transport back to factory.

It's again such a convoluted way to "solve" another self created problem.

It will likely make qualifying even more predictable now, with less chance of a small team getting into Q3 by burning up all their soft tires while bigger teams risk getting through on mediums, or used softs, to save new ones.

The alternative tyre allocation has a bigger impact on the race than it does Qualifying. And even then, tyre warming could be a factor for q1 and q2.

[ARTGP]

The regular allocation already cuts back on Hards and Mediums, which is the reason why we have so many 1 stop races. Pirelli can't go too soft on the tyres because most drivers only have 1 hard for the GP, so it's got to be a durable tyre.

I'm sure we'll get a 2-3 stopper this weekend.

I will be happy to be wrong. I’ll admit I didn’t notice the counterpoint which was that Pirelli went a step softer on everything….

On the other side of it, don’t you run the risk of the soft tire being worthless?

Edited by ARTGP, 18 July 2023 - 13:33.

[PlatenGlass]

I'd prefer:

Q1 Hard
Q2 Hard
Q3 Hard
Race Hard

Agreed. With no tyre war there's no need to have different compounds. It's just to create "excitement".

[gillesfan76]

It’s not a spec series (yet?) so I don’t see why they’re pigeonholing teams into an even narrower selection of tyre usage that could limit how they extract performance from their car designs. Some cars use the softs better, some the mediums, some hards etc. It all depends on their car designs, setup and driver styles. The variability allows a team to potentially compensate for their car limitations by attempting a perfect handshake between their car setup, driving style and tyre selection. Not sure what this is going to achieve except that some teams will find themselves limited based on the inherent design of their car. Probably what’s more depressing is that I only mildly care about this messing about. I feel somewhat beaten into submission by all the incessant tinkering.

[BerniesDad]

Worth noting that reducing the sets of tyres available hurts the top ten (i.e those that run in Q3) more than it does the rest of the grid.  I think that's part of the reason behind restricting to 4 sets of soft tyres.

 

A backmarker team might only use 1 set of soft for P3, 1 set for Q1, and save two sets for the race.

A top-ten runner might use a set of soft in P3, but then run in Q1 on Medium, Q2 and Q3 on a set of softs each, and would only have only 1 clean set of Soft for the race.

[Bloggsworth]

More bo**ocks from the Hollywood department of F1... Next they'll be asking footballers/soccer players to score goals with alternate feet...

[barnardferrari]

Worth noting that reducing the sets of tyres available hurts the top ten (i.e those that run in Q3) more than it does the rest of the grid.  I think that's part of the reason behind restricting to 4 sets of soft tyres.

 

A backmarker team might only use 1 set of soft for P3, 1 set for Q1, and save two sets for the race.

A top-ten runner might use a set of soft in P3, but then run in Q1 on Medium, Q2 and Q3 on a set of softs each, and would only have only 1 clean set of Soft for the race.

The teams are not allowed to use softs in Q1 or Q2 under the new rules.

[Goron3]

I will be happy to be wrong. I’ll admit I didn’t notice the counterpoint which was that Pirelli went a step softer on everything….

On the other side of it, don’t you run the risk of the soft tire being worthless?

Yeah, the soft tyre was definitely just be a qualifying tyre, nothing more. But as long as the M and H are good race tyres and not ultra durable, I'm more than happy. One stoppers are full, plain and simple.

[Clatter]

Worth noting that reducing the sets of tyres available hurts the top ten (i.e those that run in Q3) more than it does the rest of the grid. I think that's part of the reason behind restricting to 4 sets of soft tyres.

A backmarker team might only use 1 set of soft for P3, 1 set for Q1, and save two sets for the race.
A top-ten runner might use a set of soft in P3, but then run in Q1 on Medium, Q2 and Q3 on a set of softs each, and would only have only 1 clean set of Soft for the race.

Its hards for Q1, medium for Q2, and soft for Q3. Same for all teams.

[Clatter]

I will be happy to be wrong. I’ll admit I didn’t notice the counterpoint which was that Pirelli went a step softer on everything….

On the other side of it, don’t you run the risk of the soft tire being worthless?

One of the compound is generally unused in the race. Not sure it really matters if they don't use the soft.

[pdac]

It would make more sense to me to allow every team to use all of the compounds during free practice then, before qualifying, they have to declare a single compound that they will use exclusively in both quali and the race (aside from inters/wets).

[Clatter]

I'm actually interested to see how this format works out. It probably won't make any difference, but there is the potential for one, or more, of the front runners to have a less than optimum session, and maybe shake the grid up a tad.

[SenorSjon]

Before Corona, teams could pick their own allocation. Due to Corona, Pirelli couldn't get the proper lead times to have them in time at GP's and that sticks around until today. Well, why not reinstate that pre 2020 rule again?

Edited by SenorSjon, 18 July 2023 - 17:28.

[Clatter]

Before Corona, teams could pick their own allocation. Due to Corona, Pirelli couldn't get the proper lead times to have them in time at GP's and that sticks around until today. Well, why not reinstate that pre 2020 rule again?

I think they want to drive everyone down the same route, as it reduces the chances of a team getting a lucky break, or equally getting it totally wrong.