28 replies to this topic

[JL14]

Apparently, Red Bull has been using a loophole to get around their budget cap penalty and basically enjoy unlimited windtunnel time.

 

Due to a 'loophole' in the regulations, to state is simple, teams can run their car in the windtunnel as much as they want as long as it's for internal airflow (cooling etc.). During these runs, they aren't allowed to measure downforce levels, but that doesn't prevent them from learning about airflow as they can still visualize this and draw conclusions from about how to improve the aerodynamic surfaces.

 

The only constraint is the running costs of the windtunnel, as I think this has to be included in the budget cap?

 

 

Discuss! 

 

[1player]

If it's in the book, it's not a loophole. Now the question is whether only Red Bull have figured out they can skirt around part of the wind tunnel limitations, or other teams do as well.

[kumo7]

Sam says RB cannot measure the effects in Kg, but I assume it is just when the team is testing the internal. 

After making all the changes on its internal, when the shape is done, it goes to the usual tunnel test and measures the N. This is sort of loophole may be...

[JL14]

Sam says RB cannot measure the effects in Kg, but I assume it is just when the team is testing the internal. 

After making all the changes on its internal, when the shape is done, it goes to the usual tunnel test and measures the N. This is sort of loophole may be...

 

Indeed. You can keep optimizing the shape based of flow structures that you can see, then do a single run to measure the actual performance (gains).

 

If Red Bull has been doing this from the start of these budget cap regulations, and none of the other teams, it explains their rocket ship. 

They would have been able to keep messing around with shapes of the sidepod/floor unlimited, seeing how it interacts and behaves, while at some points doing a performance run. If other teams used actual windtunnel time for each iteration, that has made a huge difference.

 

So if it has only been Red Bull doing this, I'm expecting a media shitstorm by Toto, Brown, Vasseur etc. soon.

Edited by JL14, 22 July 2023 - 12:36.

[paulb]

Sounds like an “unfair advantage” if you’re smarter than everyone else about interpreting the rulebook.

[F1matt]

Ted Kravitz will have a meltdown over this. no doubt he will dedicate a large amount of his notebook to it. Thankfully I don't watch Ted's notebook. 

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Honest Gov’ we only altered the external surfaces to improve the internal cooling air flow.


Massive loophole and a massive performance gain here.

This was and is against the spirit of the rule book… I would say but is normal F1 stuff I guess… which is probably why they got a lighter penalty last time out as they wanted it over…

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 22 July 2023 - 12:37.

[Goron3]

I suspect all teams have been doing this and the quote from Sam is a bit tabloidy (wouldn't be the first time).

[JL14]

If actually done so, you would have expected this to have raised some eyebrows by the FIA though. 
"Hey Red Bull, how come you're windtunnel has been on for F1 work 10 times as long as other teams?"

[ARTGP]

I suspect all teams have been doing this and the quote from Sam is a bit tabloidy (wouldn't be the first time).

 

It's mostly edgy/tabloidy nonsense from Sam Collins.  I'm not sure I have the strength to dissect the misconceptions that OP has taken from Sam Collins' deliberate usage of wording to imply that this is more useful than it is. He is also the team fuel load clairvoyant in free practice...

 

Are RB the only team who changed their side pods this year?   

- No

 

Did a RB engineer tell Sams Collins that they are abusing any loophole if any?

- No, lol.

 

Did no aero person ever leave RB in the last 3 years to the point that this is their "great secret"?

- lol

 

 

This is just  edgy chum for those who don't like RB to allow their imaginations to run wild.  SC is not exactly a RB fan either...well documented.

Edited by ARTGP, 22 July 2023 - 13:16.

[P123]

Maybe calling it a loophole is a bit of a stretch?  It's something that can be exploited, but it's not as they would like to be running and measuring their cars in the wind tunnel.  Same for all.  Smarter minds may of course get greater benefit from it than others.

[krapmeister]

I can just picture Newey looking at all the strands of wool taped on the bodywork of the model in the windtunnel, reading the airflow like a book and going 'this is the one...'

[Beri]

It's not a loophole if the rulebook simply states this as being a valid thing to do.
It's just being smarter than the rest if you can get an advantage out of it. But it must certainly is not a loophole.

But then; no competitor will admit, if this is true, that Red Bull was smarter. Only it will be likely the case that the competitors call it unfair.

[AncientLurker]

This sounds like, yet again, extremely piss poor rule writing and lack of logic by the FIA. No surprise.

There seem to be a lot of allowances for extra spending above the cap for reliability, I think this is a huge mistake. Not only does it open loopholes like this, it makes the races more boring and predictable. Would rather see teams have to decide between outright speed and reliability.

Edited by AncientLurker, 22 July 2023 - 13:15.

[Lassel]

As said, even if it was some amazing loophole that nobody else saw at first (unlikely), team members move around all the time so RBS ‘secret’ wouldn’t have lasted long.

Non-story as usual.

[RedRabbit]

This is only allowed if a team is changing the cooling system layout. And it's only the area of bodywork enclosing the cooling system.

Brilliant bit of work by Red Bull to spot this, and take advantage of it.

No doubt we will hear some crying from the usual suspects in F1.

[Garagista]

If it was Ferrari, it was cheating and a shame for the sport, but as it is Red Bull...

[Myrvold]

Ted Kravitz will have a meltdown over this. no doubt he will dedicate a large amount of his notebook to it. Thankfully I don't watch Ted's notebook. 

 

Yet you did an entire post dedicated to Kravitz.

[SenorSjon]

Seeing how they made the sidepod entries smaller and smaller, they are using this 'loophole' to full effect. Just like other teams I presume.

Edited by SenorSjon, 22 July 2023 - 13:33.

[pdac]

This sounds like, yet again, extremely piss poor rule writing and lack of logic by the FIA. No surprise.

There seem to be a lot of allowances for extra spending above the cap for reliability, I think this is a huge mistake. Not only does it open loopholes like this, it makes the races more boring and predictable. Would rather see teams have to decide between outright speed and reliability.

 

I've said for a long time that the FIA do not write piss-poor rules with loopholes accidentally. These things are all there to pretend that you're enforcing strict limits, whilst allowing the teams to continue with very little change. It's totally by design that the rules are worded the way they are.

[Broekschaap]

I like to think a chapter called Exceptions to the Aerodynamic Testing Restrictions could be spotted by any team. So no loophole there.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I like to think a chapter called Exceptions to the Aerodynamic Testing Restrictions could be spotted by any team. So no loophole there.

I think a lot of teams have missed this - or at least tried to honour the spirit of the rules…

[SenorSjon]

I think a lot of teams have missed this - or at least tried to honour the spirit of the rules…

That would be the first time ever in F1.

[Ellios]

Ted Kravitz will have a meltdown over this. no doubt he will dedicate a large amount of his notebook to it. Thankfully I don't watch Ted's notebook. 

 

 

[Clatter]

I think a lot of teams have missed this - or at least tried to honour the spirit of the rules…

If any team says they didn't do it due to spirit of the rules, then I'd say they are lying.

[Ellios]

I think a lot of teams have missed this - or at least tried to honour the spirit of the rules…

 

There's no such thing as spirit of the rules, that's just on the list of excuses. 

[GrumpyYoungMan]

🤔😂😂😂😂I take it the irony in my post was lost!

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 22 July 2023 - 17:41.

[Beamer]

I think a lot of teams have missed this - or at least tried to honour the spirit of the rules…

Yeah, right. Any serious competitor in any sports starts by reading the rulebook carefully and tries to find an edge. Definitely in f1, thats almost the core of the game.

No way any team will think ' we can do this according to the rules, but its not in the spirit of the rules, so let's not'

Edited by Beamer, 22 July 2023 - 18:25.

[Beamer]

🤔😂😂😂😂I take it the irony in my post was lost!

Oops 🙂