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Ferrari Losing In Politics?


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Poll: Is Ferrari Losing The Political Battle? (49 member(s) have cast votes)

Is Ferrari Losing The Political Battle?

  1. Yes (32 votes [65.31%])

    Percentage of vote: 65.31%

  2. No (7 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  3. No idea (10 votes [20.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.41%

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#1 FTB

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 13:37

As we all saw, Ferrari started 2022 with a very good car that challenged for the win in many races and should have won more without the strategy/reliability issues. However, since the TD39 they massively fell off. And currently it seems that they seem to be lost in development with the current design. We also know Mercedes was one of the biggest supporters of TD39 although it hasn't worked out for them either.

 

Ferrari also had trouble with FIA with their engine of 2019, causing them to have 2 years of rebuild in 2020 and 2021.

 

 

Given all the information, I have to ask, is Scuderia Ferrari losing the political battle?

EDIT: Can the mods make the topic end with a question mark, forgot it.


Edited by FTB, 24 July 2023 - 13:38.


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#2 Primo

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 13:41

As we all saw, Ferrari started 2022 with a very good car that challenged for the win in many races and should have won more without the strategy/reliability issues. However, since the TD39 they massively fell off. And currently it seems that they seem to be lost in development with the current design. We also know Mercedes was one of the biggest supporters of TD39 although it hasn't worked out for them either.

 

Ferrari also had trouble with FIA with their engine of 2019, causing them to have 2 years of rebuild in 2020 and 2021.

 

 

Given all the information, I have to ask, is Scuderia Ferrari losing the political battle?

EDIT: Can the mods make the topic end with a question mark, forgot it.

I don't think the "TD39" is there anymore. They may bounce as hard as they please.



#3 dissident

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 13:47

I think Ferrari's political status was always a bit overhyped.

 

While there are examples pointing to that special status, the fact is that the FIA was actually very quick in changing the technical and sporting regulations to curb Ferrari's dominance (see 2002 -> 2003 and 2004 -> 2005).

 

Not only were they quick to act, they were very clear with their intentions - something we didn't really see with Mercedes, for example.



#4 dia6olo

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 14:21

As a Ferrari fan there is probably a little bit of bias involved with my view but it does seem to me that the powers that be are very quick to penalise Ferrari at every turn for any "infringement" while seemingly turning a blind eye to many "infringements" when it's RBR or Mercedes...



#5 Risil

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 15:45

Please remind us what TD39 was and why it was significant!

#6 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 15:46

Seems more like they’re losing in engineering to me.

#7 flyboym3

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 16:17

Yes they don't even seem to try the off track polemics anymore.

Its a shame really because they are probably the only team that have the gravitas to go toe-to-toe with horner and his politicking and he knows it and is probably grateful Ferrari don't leverage it.

#8 Clatter

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 16:27

I don't think the "TD39" is there anymore. They may bounce as hard as they please.

 


It has been superceded with the raised floor. What seemed to hurt them more was having to get rid of the flexible floor they had been using. Was that part of the TD, or a separate thing?

#9 Clatter

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 16:29

As a Ferrari fan there is probably a little bit of bias involved with my view but it does seem to me that the powers that be are very quick to penalise Ferrari at every turn for any "infringement" while seemingly turning a blind eye to many "infringements" when it's RBR or Mercedes...

 


Any examples?

#10 iakhtar

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 16:32

They have basically given up all of their natural advantages, track testing, budget and engine development via the freeze. Now they are scrambling to adapt and are doing a poor job.



#11 Deeq

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 16:33


It has been superceded with the raised floor. What seemed to hurt them more was having to get rid of the flexible floor they had been using. Was that part of the TD, or a separate thing?

It was related to it via clarification of the floor flexiblity rules... That is what killed them speedwise.

#12 George Costanza

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 16:37

Ferrari doesn't have a leader like Jean Todt or Ross anymore. Nor a driver like Schumacher in the team.

I do know if Enzo Ferrari were running it, he would certainly use it. As he had.

Edited by George Costanza, 24 July 2023 - 16:39.


#13 New Britain

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 16:37

I think Ferrari's political status was always a bit overhyped.

 

While there are examples pointing to that special status, the fact is that the FIA was actually very quick in changing the technical and sporting regulations to curb Ferrari's dominance (see 2002 -> 2003 and 2004 -> 2005).

 

Not only were they quick to act, they were very clear with their intentions - something we didn't really see with Mercedes, for example.

With respect, I would submit that Ferrari's political status - historically - was if anything under-hyped.

Bernie admitted that he and the FIA systematically favoured Ferrari because of their financial importance to F1.

We all know about the bargeboards, Indy 2005, the Stepney dossier, the flexible floor, and Spa 2008 - to name but a

few.

I'll offer a couple of others:

 

- There used to be a small UK-based company that made a particular component for the engines. Their expertise was such that almost all the engine manufacturers used them to supply this particular component.

One year there was an engine component freeze scheduled for (say) 15th February. On 14th February the top Ferrari engine guy came to the UK works to look at a new variation that the company had developed. Impressed with what he saw, the Ferrari guy said, 'Great. We want 50 (or whatever). Can you have them ready for the first race?

The UK boss replied, 'But the deadline for approval is tomorrow. There is no way that we could make some and you could get them approved by tomorrow!'

Ferrari guy replied, 'Approval won't be a problem. Please make them.' Which the company did, and which Ferrari used in the first race.

 

- In 2011, when he still ran the company but had the advantage of perspective, Sir Frank Williams told me, apropos the dishonesty of the FIA, 'For years, we would confidentially submit to the FIA for approval our latest ideas, the FIA would approve them, but it was the oddest thing. It seemed that every time we had something new approved and brought it to the next race, Ferrari would come to that race with exactly the same thing!'

 

To generalise, the FIA's systematic favouritism of Ferrari seemed to fall away when Herr Mosley left with his tail between his legs. Although there were suspicions that successor and ex-Ferrari man Todt would continue the favouritism, those suspicions ignored that Todt had been forced out of Ferrari and di Montezemolo had actively opposed his candidacy for FIA presidency. Todt was definitely no longer Ferrari flavour-of-the-month and was unlikely to favour his former employers.

 

Christian Horner, who from Red Bull's start in F1 shamelessly worked to ingratiate himself with the powers that were, exploited the fact that Red Bull uniquely owned two teams, or 20% of the entire grid. Red Bull's leverage grew when the circuit they owned returned to the calendar, and also because their 'edgy' brand has been associated with the FIA's and Commercial Right's Holder's wish to attract young audiences. If there was any doubt the Red Bull have supplanted Ferrari as enjoying a regulatory bias, one need look no further than Abu Dhabi 2021.



#14 Deeq

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 16:39

They have basically given up all of their natural advantages, track testing, budget and engine development via the freeze. Now they are scrambling to adapt and are doing a poor job.

They have hade several popularity whores as Presidents.. cared more about how the coolkids see them than the teams competitiveness.👎🙄👎

#15 SenorSjon

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 18:31

Ferrari doesn't have a leader like Jean Todt or Ross anymore. Nor a driver like Schumacher in the team.

I do know if Enzo Ferrari were running it, he would certainly use it. As he had.

 

But the Ferrari appeal is also dwindling. I doubt Lewis or Max will want to drive there. They gave up their test track for the 2009 season and haven't won a title since. 2008 (their last WCC) is 15 years ago. I remember that being a thing when they signed Schumacher for 1996 when they were waiting for a drivers title since 1979 and constructors 1983. I don't see that changing before 2026.

 

Earlier long dry spells

WDC

1964-1975

1979-2000

2008-2023 till present day

 

WCC

1964-1975

1983-1999

2009-2023 till present day


Edited by SenorSjon, 24 July 2023 - 18:32.


#16 George Costanza

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 19:11

But the Ferrari appeal is also dwindling. I doubt Lewis or Max will want to drive there. They gave up their test track for the 2009 season and haven't won a title since. 2008 (their last WCC) is 15 years ago. I remember that being a thing when they signed Schumacher for 1996 when they were waiting for a drivers title since 1979 and constructors 1983. I don't see that changing before 2026.

Earlier long dry spells
WDC
1964-1975
1979-2000
2008-2023 till present day

WCC
1964-1975
1983-1999
2009-2023 till present day


Yup. Makes you really appreciate how special Michael Schumacher truly was.

#17 tifosii

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 19:23

Yup. Makes you really appreciate how special Michael Schumacher truly was.

 


Yeah,Michael was really special..

#18 Deeq

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 19:28

Yup. Makes you really appreciate how special Michael Schumacher truly was.

Or how valuable it was to have a test track, to test the car and validate your design. ****in' moronic to agree with testing bans...
**** Luca deMoron worst Ferrari president ever.👎👎👎😡😡

#19 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 19:30

it's a mix of things. 
Ferrari have historically had A MASSIVE advantage, financial from prize money and then lots of facilities, tracks where they would run race distance after race distance and bring updates....can't do that anymore

They had a strong season in the Mercedes dominance era where the engine was suspiciously fast (huuge difference). They signed and NDA and went 2 steps back..wonder why

They started 2022 seriously fast and went backwards when Flexi floor stuff was banned. That was a cheeky illegal thing.

Their most recent flashes of speed came on the expense of breaching some tech regulations. In a smart way (not tested properly) but still breaches.



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#20 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 19:31

Or how valuable it was to have a test track, to test the car and validate your design. ****in' moronic to agree with testing bans...
**** Luca deMoron worst Ferrari president ever.

I mean sure, but then what does winning mean if you have all those facilities and the other teams don't?

it's like going to kinder garden and winning a heavy lifting contest....


Edited by MikeTekRacing, 24 July 2023 - 19:31.


#21 Deeq

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 19:51

I mean sure, but then what does winning mean if you have all those facilities and the other teams don't?
it's like going to kinder garden and winning a heavy lifting contest....

Socialism for Anglo-americans & capitalism for others eh.
How about we equalise the effect of motorsport valey in England..pretty big natural advantage.
Say UK based teams should have wieght disadvantage say 20kg. So WDC/WCC wont be like winning against 3rd division - amateur - teams.🙄

Edited by Deeq, 24 July 2023 - 19:52.


#22 Bloggsworth

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 20:23

It's an Italian team, politics is ingrained, factions fighting for supremacy...



#23 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 20:26

Socialism for Anglo-americans & capitalism for others eh.
How about we equalise the effect of motorsport valey in England..pretty big natural advantage.
Say UK based teams should have wieght disadvantage say 20kg. So WDC/WCC wont be like winning against 3rd division - amateur - teams.

oh i am not a big fan of equalizing. Just pointing out what was good for Ferrari was not good for the sport.

Nobody has a disadvantage now. If anything, Ferrari STILL have an advantage as they receive more money allocation for simply being Ferrari



#24 GentlemanDriver091

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 20:26

Fact is Ferrari can’t win without politics and/or cheating.

They aren’t able to fix Charles radio for four races now, how do we expect them to build a race winning car?

#25 Primo

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 20:59

It has been superceded with the raised floor. What seemed to hurt them more was having to get rid of the flexible floor they had been using. Was that part of the TD, or a separate thing?

I must admit I'm not sure. I was under the impression that TD39 was just about the "if" not about the "why". If the measuring device went intop the red, team bosses was to be told they were naughty. 
Going a bit further, again without "being sure", I do not think that those measuring devices ever left the alpha test.
 



#26 George Costanza

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 21:04

Or how valuable it was to have a test track, to test the car and validate your design. ****in' moronic to agree with testing bans...
**** Luca deMoron worst Ferrari president ever.👎👎👎😡😡


They had all of that before Michael was even there and they couldn't win anything.

#27 MaxisOne

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 21:17

Charles radio has been broken for 4 races ? Youre joking right ?  Whomever is responsible should  demonstrate the body of troubleshooting work they have done in all that time to keep their job. Personally i don't mind if they have been tirelessly working to fix it and simply cant find the issue but if they haven't been putting in the effort all this time knowing how important a working radio is during a race weekend then frankly i really don't think the job is for them. Personally for me the situation would warrant a replacement system being brought in and installed if the present one cannot be fixed BEFORE a hard deadline which is before the next race weekend.



#28 SenorSjon

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 21:17

Yet it was seen as their major advantage coming of a dominant era.

#29 SCUDmissile

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Posted 24 July 2023 - 21:18

There are lots of reasons but simply they are not good enough in any area any more.

Politics, operations, car design, etc

#30 kumo7

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 03:49

Ferrari indeed, is losing bits by bits. 

It is like Ferrari is on a sliding mountain slope, it is slowly but certainly slowing down the slope, and at some point, it may fall over the current speed.

I have no confidence in Vasseur and why he is there. Binotto did a much better technical job and called better strategy.

Look what happened at Sauber Alfa. This year they are nowhere, not because the head this year is bad, but because Vasseur the last year made their wrong call. 

Luckily it made an impression at Hungaroring, but it was always at the bottom of the timetable.

Now Ferrari is nowhere near the Red Bull. it rather tails behind the Mercedes and McLaren. Sometimes behind Alpine. 

I say question Vasseur's performance and consider calling Binotto back into his job.



#31 Myrvold

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 03:56

Ferrari indeed, is losing bits by bits.
It is like Ferrari is on a sliding mountain slope, it is slowly but certainly slowing down the slope, and at some point, it may fall over the current speed.
I have no confidence in Vasseur and why he is there. Binotto did a much better technical job and called better strategy.
Look what happened at Sauber Alfa. This year they are nowhere, not because the head this year is bad, but because Vasseur the last year made their wrong call.
Luckily it made an impression at Hungaroring, but it was always at the bottom of the timetable.
Now Ferrari is nowhere near the Red Bull. it rather tails behind the Mercedes and McLaren. Sometimes behind Alpine.
I say question Vasseur's performance and consider calling Binotto back into his job.


You are blaming Vasseur for a bad Sauber this year, but also for Ferrari this year?

#32 kumo7

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 05:41

I am not blaming Vasseur for Ferrari, rather predicting the fall of Ferrari under Vasseur. Obviously I can be very inaccurate.

#33 taran

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 06:48

I seem to have read back in the day that the feeling was that Luca had pulled off a master deal by agreeing to these limitations. The reason being that manufacturers were present in force and could easily outspend and thus outdevelop Ferrari (and Fiat) whereas in the previous financial era, it had been Ferrari and McLaren/Marlboro with all others at a considerable distance (Williams and Benetton won titles with considerably smaller budgets). Toyota (Toyota's war chest) had been especially feared although that challenge fizzled out due to mismanagement of their F1 effort. Because in the 2000s, FIAT was not a big player any more and couldn't match the real heavy hitters when it came to spending money on F1.

 

So by seemingly giving up something of value, all teams were now bound to restrictions (including the resource restriction agreement which never worked) giving Ferrari at least an equal chance against its manufacturer opposition.

 

At the time, Ferrari was probably the best team and Luca can be forgiven for thinking they were the best due to organisation and execution and not because of fat stacks allowing for unlimited development. 



#34 Nobody

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 07:19

Has F1 finally outgrown Ferrari? Or to put it another way, has the 'DTS Era' finally emboldened FOM to believe they can survive without the scuderia as the crown jewel?

#35 AlexPrime

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 07:49

Only in F1! In Le Mans, they got what they wanted.



#36 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 08:30

But the Ferrari appeal is also dwindling. I doubt Lewis or Max will want to drive there. They gave up their test track for the 2009 season and haven't won a title since. 2008 (their last WCC) is 15 years ago. I remember that being a thing when they signed Schumacher for 1996 when they were waiting for a drivers title since 1979 and constructors 1983. I don't see that changing before 2026.

 

Earlier long dry spells

WDC

1964-1975

1979-2000

2008-2023 till present day

 

WCC

1964-1975

1983-1999

2009-2023 till present day

Yeah, I get the feeling that the ‘lure of Ferrari’ is on the decline. They do have the feeling of any of the other big teams in modern Formula 1. Away from the track, plenty of teams have their own sports road car divisions too…Mercedes, McLaren, Alpine, soon to be Audi. I think the lure of Ferrari road cars is also becoming diluted too.

 

I’m not quite sure that we have kids growing up, becoming F1 drivers and dreaming of being in that red car anymore. Not as much as it used to be anyway…regardless of Ferrari’s actual pace. The younger F1 fans seem to find Ferrari a bit of a joke, especially with the amount of stick they get on social media (e.g. the Ferrari pit wall with clown faces pic).



#37 Clatter

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 08:40

I must admit I'm not sure. I was under the impression that TD39 was just about the "if" not about the "why". If the measuring device went intop the red, team bosses was to be told they were naughty.
Going a bit further, again without "being sure", I do not think that those measuring devices ever left the alpha test.


It doesn't help that the FIA don't publish the TD's. I don't understand why, but each time they introduce one we end up not knowing what the rules of the competition are. And then when you think you do know, they quietly drop the TD.

#38 RedRabbit

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 09:03

I don't think any team can successfully argue against technical directives that will curb their technical infringements.

Or TDs implemented under Safety guises.

I believe they could have made a case against the new tires if they thought it would undo all the work gone into finding a set up solution for the old tires.

There wasn't any safety argument in the introduction, as no tires had failed this year without being punctured by contact.

#39 pdac

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 09:42

The only explanation I have is that Liberty called their bluff on threats to leave (or, rather, Ferrari are not as convincing with their threats to leave as they used to be).



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#40 SenorSjon

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 09:47

Where would they leave to?

#41 pdac

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 09:59

Where would they leave to?

 

Exactly. The threat has always revolved around the Ferrari name being a big financial winner for F1. Bernie was very happy to perpetuate this (di Montezemolo was probably the third person in the triumvirate). Perhaps Liberty think he gave them too much and has pegged it back with counter threats.



#42 dia6olo

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 10:07

Just to add a little perspective to Ferrari's "downfall", since last winning the drivers championship with Raikkonen 2007, not counting the current season we have had 15 seasons since and Ferrari have been in the top 3 constructors in 12 of those 15 seasons and top 2 in 7 of those 15 seasons. 5 of of those second place finishes have come in the past 10 seasons.

 
Not great for what they represented, still represent for many of us but talk of "downfall" is a little exaggerated...

Edited by dia6olo, 25 July 2023 - 10:17.


#43 ForzaFormula

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 10:27

Yup. Makes you really appreciate how special Michael Schumacher truly was.

But they still built a car good enough for the 2007/2008 championships, if Michael had stayed on he would of won both of them championships and been a 9xWDC, and Ferrari winning the 2008 WCC.

 

I also believe both Alonso & Ferrari bottled the 2012 title and if that was a 2005/2006 Alonso that was another title for Ferrari (WCC) instead things turned out different. 

They also built a car good enough to fight and beat the Mercedes machine, but they only had Vettel who could not handle the pressure and did not have the talent to match Hamilton.

 

So In summary even though it looks worse than it is, I believe they can fight back and it is Ferrari, they just need a key figure who can lead the team again , Ross, Todt etc...they are missing a big figure to fix everything within.



#44 cbo

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 10:30

The only explanation I have is that Liberty called their bluff on threats to leave (or, rather, Ferrari are not as convincing with their threats to leave as they used to be).


Good point.

Ferrari leaving will just open a spot for one of the teams waiting in the pipeline to get into F1.

Thinking about it, it would no effect my interest in F1 at all.

History and legacy just don't carry much value these days, at least not in a sport that is changing a lot these days to cater for a new and growing audience.

#45 New Britain

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 10:47

But they still built a car good enough for the 2007/2008 championships, if Michael had stayed on he would of won both of them championships and been a 9xWDC, and Ferrari winning the 2008 WCC.

 

I also believe both Alonso & Ferrari bottled the 2012 title and if that was a 2005/2006 Alonso that was another title for Ferrari (WCC) instead things turned out different. 

They also built a car good enough to fight and beat the Mercedes machine, but they only had Vettel who could not handle the pressure and did not have the talent to match Hamilton.

 

So In summary even though it looks worse than it is, I believe they can fight back and it is Ferrari, they just need a key figure who can lead the team again , Ross, Todt etc...they are missing a big figure to fix everything within.

You forgot to mention that throughout the last 15 years, until now, they have always had the first- or second-largest budget, and that surely had a bearing on their on-track success. Things have now changed.

 

The key phrase in your post is 'and it is Ferrari'. Yes it is Ferrari - and so what? They no longer have a big financial advantage and they no longer have a big regulatory advantage.

 

We should welcome that Ferrari are no longer systematically favoured by the regulator, as they are no more deserving of favouritism than anybody else is.



#46 kumo7

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 11:10

Is this thread related to TD39/22?

 

I am lost a bit. If it were TD39/22, it must be about the flex floor and bouncing that killed the performance of Ferrari F1 2022, and, it's 2023 car not running the system that changes the falling course of performance.

 

In this light, I assert the role of Binotto was to build flex floors that enhance the performance of the Ferrari F1 car. It lost as bouncing was too hard, and the impact of TD39/22 was too severe for Ferrari to recover.

Now Binotto is gone, Ferrari must have acted to make the car go faster and not bounce. This isn't done, and I say if Binotto were there, he must have done something about it. 

 

The thread asks if this falling performance between 2022 and 2023 is due to politics. I say It may, and if so, then Vasseur must act upon it. I say further that Vasseur has little understanding in this very technical matter; under him, Sauber fell, Ferarri will as he has too little technical leadership. Also, he seems to be letting a lot of technical staff out of his stable, most notably the one who moved to McLaren. 

 

If TD39/22 is related to Mr. Eccelstone's preference to keep Ferrari on the special podium or not, I have not much to say. I think TD39/22 was also caused by the drivers, such as Lewis Hamilton complaining that the bouncing car was killing him.



#47 milestone 11

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 11:31

The myth of Ferrari is the myth. Two world champions in 45 years and one of those was in, shall I say, strange circumstances. Without Schumacher, I doubt they'd be on the grid today.

Edited by milestone 11, 25 July 2023 - 11:31.


#48 ferrarista

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 11:54

You forgot to mention that throughout the last 15 years, until now, they have always had the first- or second-largest budget, and that surely had a bearing on their on-track success. Things have now changed.

The key phrase in your post is 'and it is Ferrari'. Yes it is Ferrari - and so what? They no longer have a big financial advantage and they no longer have a big regulatory advantage.

We should welcome that Ferrari are no longer systematically favoured by the regulator, as they are no more deserving of favouritism than anybody else is.

Yes, Ferrari is Ferrari and then there is the rest.
Only the British “garagisti” don’t accept it yet.

Ferrari is a myth, the myth goes beyond the wins and the defeats in F1 😉

There are many reasons why they are not winning in F1, not only that they are not the strongest team politically anymore.

Edited by ferrarista, 25 July 2023 - 12:03.


#49 1player

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 13:10

Yes, Ferrari is Ferrari and then there is the rest.
Only the British “garagisti” don’t accept it yet.

Ferrari is a myth, the myth goes beyond the wins and the defeats in F1 😉

There are many reasons why they are not winning in F1, not only that they are not the strongest team politically anymore.

That's quite an Italian point of view that's akin to dogma and religion rather than being a factual observation. And as an Italian living in Britain and supporting McLaren, I have experienced both sides of this religion.

But the point is, Ferrari is a myth, it has reached legendary status a long time ago when most of us were not around, Schumacher managed to revive it purely with his generational talent, but at the end of the day, Ferrari has been mediocre for a LONG time and not worth its reverence.

The reason Ferrari is terrible today and can't sort themselves out is because in Italy it's treated like a religion, nobody dares give it a good critical look lest the spirit of Enzo comes to haunt you in your dreams, so it keeps limping along, with managers playing Game of Thrones, when you just need a ruthless boss at the head of it all to come it, say it like it is, and rebuild the entire company from the ground up, never mind the ghost of Enzo.

This is not the Italian business mindset. We tend to play the political game, getting favours and promoting our friends, so the mediocrity continues. Ferrari is terrible on the track because, like most Italian institutions, it is rotten to the core and the ones running the show are the ones that have benefited the most from this lack of critical oversight in how the company is run.

Edited by 1player, 25 July 2023 - 13:14.


#50 George Costanza

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Posted 25 July 2023 - 13:32

But they still built a car good enough for the 2007/2008 championships, if Michael had stayed on he would of won both of them championships and been a 9xWDC, and Ferrari winning the 2008 WCC.

I also believe both Alonso & Ferrari bottled the 2012 title and if that was a 2005/2006 Alonso that was another title for Ferrari (WCC) instead things turned out different.

They also built a car good enough to fight and beat the Mercedes machine, but they only had Vettel who could not handle the pressure and did not have the talent to match Hamilton.

So In summary even though it looks worse than it is, I believe they can fight back and it is Ferrari, they just need a key figure who can lead the team again , Ross, Todt etc...they are missing a big figure to fix everything within.

This is 100 percent spot on. They need Ross Brawn type character to win again IMHO. Michael would have won 2007 and especially in 2008, which was better than the 2007 car by a good margin with ease.


Fernando was better in 2012 than he was in 2005-2006 IMHO.

Edited by George Costanza, 25 July 2023 - 13:34.