31 replies to this topic

[Michael Ferner]

If my calculations are correct (which is by no means sure!!), then it was 62 years ago today, August 12 in 1961, that a rider took his 100th start in a Motorcycle World Championship event for the first time ever. Any idea who it might have been?

Edited by Michael Ferner, 12 August 2023 - 07:32.

[LittleChris]

Luigi Taveri ?

[Michael Ferner]

Not quite! According to my calculations, Taveri is second man to hit the target, less than two years later. It doesn't, however, include his starts as sidecar passenger, which aren't enough to tip the balance anyway (I think, he being almost thirty starts behind numero uno at the time). And Luigi's first to record 100 finishes, which is a more reliable statistic, since retirements are more difficult to find in old sources.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 12 August 2023 - 21:23.

[tonyed]

Carlo Ubbiali?

I calculate it was The 1960 Belgian 250 which was his 100th

Edited by tonyed, 14 August 2023 - 03:05.

[Michael Ferner]

Hi Tony. I have Ubbiali at 87 races, and am well aware that I might be missing some, though I didn't expect it to be more than a dozen! Care to share your calculations? 

[tonyed]

https://en.wikipedia...i/Carlo_Ubbiali

 

I think I am misreading this as in an obit to him it says - 39 victories from 71 starts across 12 seasons of Grand Prix racing 

 

MotoGP statistics also say 71 starts so it's not Carlo.

Edited by tonyed, 15 August 2023 - 09:00.

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks for the link, but I'm counting only 73 races there (the 71 starts showing up in many stats are his points finishes only; 'easy way out' for most stat compilers  )

 

Anyway, I won't be stretching this for much longer, as the man I'm looking for wasn't one of the big stars. He never drove for any factory team as far as I know, but was a Guzzi stalwart for many years - it's been said he was good friends with an ex-works rider, and got many fine factory bits after the works were through with them. He actually started racing before WW2, and was equally at home on the big bikes as well as the small ones, on the open road and the short tracks. He averaged only about 0.6 world championship points per start - who is it? 

[tonyed]

Arthur Wheeler?

[Michael Ferner]

Yes, that's our man! Thanks for playing!

 

While compiling my data base, it occured to me that Wheelie might be the one to have reached the 'century' first, and when I finally made a query it turned out to be true! Notabene the db is still under construction, and growing on an almost daily basis, so these 'preliminary results' are very much under 'caveat', but they still make for interesting study: I have identified about 75 riders to join the 'Club 100' (a number sure to grow over time), and next to enter are Taveri, Hailwood and Redman (all in 1963), then 'tiddlers' Hugh Anderson and Ernst Degner in '65, Tommy Robb, Phil Read and Jack Findlay in '67, Dan Shorey (!) and Franta Stastny in '69, Gyula Marsovszky (!) and Ago in '70, Pagani and Perris in '71, Simmonds in '72, then Bo Granath (!!) and Billie Nelson in '73, Dieter Braun, Angel Nieto, Kent Andersson, John Dodds and Chas Mortimer in '74 before the floodgates really open in the late seventies/early eighties: Bruno Kneubühler, Cees van Dongen (!), Tom Herron, Ollie Chevallier, Walter Villa, Lazzarini, Mang, Hans Müller (!!), Fernandez, Dörflinger, van Kessel and even Barry Sheene. Guess who's the first Japanese to enter? Dane might've known him personally, although it's possible they just missed out on encountering each other... yes, it's Masato Kumano!! (Unless I find seven more race crashes for Katayama-san, that is...) I could study this list for hours... Five even made it to the 'Club 200': Phil Read first, by a matter of weeks over Findlay and Ago (so subject to possible change), then Nieto and finally... Kneubühler! The Swiss make a good showing in general, but perhaps it's to do with me using lots of Swiss sources...?

 

So, Arthur Wheeler... interesting chap, isn't he? Started early on his 'century' by finishing 20th in the very first world championship race ever, just ahead of... Eric Oliver!! Travelled to Assen often, basically every year, and also made lots of other world championship venues: Clady and Dundrod of course, Spa-Francorchamps, Albi, Monza, Solitude, Nürburgring, Kristianstad and... Buenos Aires! Won at Monza in 1954 when the only 250cc factory team that year, NSU withdrew after the Hollaus tragedy in practice, and then again in the Argentine when no factory teams and no other European privateers made the journey... but former double 500cc World Champion Umberto Masetti was there, having retired years before to live in South America, and now competing on an equally old Morini and very nearly stealing away the win! Wheeler also made 'the podium' twice in the Ulster GP, once each at Clady and Dundrod, but always in the 250cc class, which was his favourite - he also took five wins in the Northwest 200, and one in the Hutchinson 100 at Silverstone on the 'quarters', and mostly with his trusty Guzzi. Rode also Velocette, Excelsior, Triumph, Norton, BSA, AJS, Matchless, MV Agusta, Mondial, NSU, Ducati... Crashed badly at Salzburg's Liefering on May 1, 1960, missing the rest of the season due to injury, but still came back (in his mid fourties, already!) to become (allegedly) the oldest Grand Prix winner to this day! Then retired... until... well, it seems he returned to race in the classic races at the Manx GP in the eighties on his old Guzzi, that making a career lasting over half a century on the Mountain course (he first started there in 1937, retiring on his first lap of the Junior MGP... with a broken fork!!). After a few more Clubman's and Manx starts, he raced in the International TT for the first time in 1949, making mostly three, often four starts each year, and winning a total of 30 TT replicas (17 silver & 13 bronze, if I've got that right). Quite a life!

[tonyed]

Yes obvious in the end. Sorry it took me so long.

Looking forward to the new data

[Robin127]

I raced against Arthur Wheeler in Belgium in the 90's.

[GregThomas]

He came out to NZ in the 90's and rode at several meetings here. One was the NZGP revival meeting on the Cust road circuit outside Christchurch.

He rode the 250 Guzzi Airone owned by my brother which has period Cust history - usually leading the Lightweight GP until an oil line broke.....

It's by no means a standard Airone and he was quite complimentary about it's speed.  A very nice guy.

[Michael Ferner]

I'm sorry, I wanted to pick up on this thread but was struck down by a bad case of summer flu 

 

Good thing is, it gave me time to look into some new sources, and I was able to improve my records substantially, which will also move 'the goalpost' quite a bit, meaning that the 'century' was accomplished (still by Wheeler) quite a bit earlier than I originally surmised. More of that later this weekend, I hope... 

[Michael Ferner]

Well, it took me one week longer because of circumstances, apologies to those who have been waiting (yes, both of you!  ) But it was worth it, a massive haul of info which sees A. F. Wheeler reaching the 'century' almost three years earlier than originally surmised, and now just a bit more than a week shy of 65 years! To start things off, here's a list of Wheeler's cahmpionship races:
 


(you can click on the picture, and get a bigger version, you can also save to HD)

Edited by Michael Ferner, 04 September 2023 - 15:04.

[Michael Ferner]

I now have comprehensive statistics for 1,525 riders who competed in world championship races up to 1960, a year which saw a number of high-profile competitors retire from the title race, not least of all John Surtees and Carlo Ubbiali, of course. A good opportunity to post an overview (top 150 riders with 19 entries or more in world championship events):
 


I have 'shaded' the names of riders who were no longer active after 1960 - quite a few from the very top!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 04 September 2023 - 15:07.

[Rodaknee]

Sorry, neither of those graphic are readable.  I don't know what you're using to view them, but I'm only seeing a blurs.

[Michael Ferner]

Yes, I can see that. Sorry, but it seems the pic host resized the image after upload - the original version was too small, so I blew it up 4 times its size and the upload took about ten times as long, but it does look to be still about the same size when you click on it   I will look into this later this evening.

[Michael Ferner]

Try again, it should now be readable. You have to click on the image, then you can save it and watch it in any size you want to in your picture app, or you can click again and it will blow up to its standard size. I hope it's all self-explanatory, the first pic is just a copy of Wheeler's entries in my data base (very basic, still - it's all being built up in a hurry). The second pic shows the riders with:

 

"R" - showing the number of races entered,

"S" - number of races started,

"F" - number of races finished,

"10" - number of top ten finishes,

"6" - top six finishes,

"3" - top three ('podium') finishes, and

"1" - wins, then it's all repeated for the respective categories, colour coded like "in the old days": black on yellow for 500cc, white on blue 350cc, white on green 250cc, white on black 125cc, black on grey 50/80cc and black on white sidecars.

[Michael Ferner]

Another way to look at it, listing all makes which entered a race during the first twelve years of the Mondiale - this is a minefield, as information is often suspect, missing or incomplete. Also, long before the Rickman brothers entered the scene, "bastardization" was a well known practice, and not all of the "cooks" cared to provide a special name for their "meal", or to reveal the ingredients (and yes, "Bitza Special" appears to have been an official entry name!). If that wasn't enough already, it's often difficult to establish whether the EMC is not really a Puch, the IFA a DKW (or an MZ!), the AWO basically a Simson by another name and the Alpha an MV built in Spain, etc. etc. ad infintum. So, take it with a grain of salt, even if it doesn't improve the taste...

 

 

[kevins]

Yes, I can see that. Sorry, but it seems the pic host resized the image after upload - the original version was too small, so I blew it up 4 times its size and the upload took about ten times as long, but it does look to be still about the same size when you click on it   I will look into this later this evening.

Michael, I use this for images https://postimages.org, it does not resize by default. Epic work BTW!

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks for that! But it is readable now, is it not? If you click on the image, it will open in small size, but you can click on it again which will blow it up, or save it to your hard drive. Please alert me if this still doesn't work for you!

 

 

Meanwhile, here's another table, sorted by driver nationality. Another minefield, of course, with missing or incorrect info adding to the troubles: quite a big problem is Northern Ireland, which is quite often given as IRL instead of GB, and it has not always been possible to double check. I will try to address this in the future, along with seperate classifications for Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man etc.; for now it's only Gibraltar (GBZ) which has a seperate entry. I also plan to 'diversify' the entries for the United States, Canada, the Soviet Union and, if possible, Tchechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.

 

 

[Rodaknee]

Your graphic is still totally unreadable.  When I saved and expanded it, it became a mess of pixels.

 

You are saving the file at a high enough resolution.  Your software should give you options and there are sites with info on how to produce graphics suitable tor the interweb.  The minimum resolution for us to view your graphic will probably be several Mb, yours is only 110kb.  For example I have jpg photographs that are 4mb and they are not as large (area) as your graphic.

 

Here's a site that might help

 

https://www.creative...lution-71515673

[tonyed]

I have no problem, right click on it, right click + again and it fills the whole screen and more to scroll through. Great work, hope you're over the flu

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks, Tony, I'm fine - it's been a month! 

 

I struggle a bit to see what your problem is, 'knee. Have you tried to click on the image? What you describe sounds like you've saved the image as it shows here on the BB, which is of course too small. Maybe you have to click on it twice before saving - yes, that must be it. I was under the impression that the dialogue with the option to save which pops up after clicking once would let you save the original size, but that may not be true. I tested this on the computer at work and it worked fine for me after clicking twice. Will try to perform another test over the weekend on my mom's computer 

[Michael Oliver]

Your graphic is still totally unreadable.  When I saved and expanded it, it became a mess of pixels.

 

You are saving the file at a high enough resolution.  Your software should give you options and there are sites with info on how to produce graphics suitable tor the interweb.  The minimum resolution for us to view your graphic will probably be several Mb, yours is only 110kb.  For example I have jpg photographs that are 4mb and they are not as large (area) as your graphic.

 

Here's a site that might help

 

https://www.creative...lution-71515673

They all open up fine for me. The only one that was a bit more tricky was the Arthur Wheeler one, where I was invited to open the full resolution file, after which it was legible. Great work, Michael!

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks! I tested the process on mom's computer, and it worked fine as well. Rodaknee, if you still have problems and want to see the images, I can email them to you! 

[Michael Ferner]

I've been meaning to update this thread for a long time now, but boy, the sixties are hard to research!!  Even most of the specialized magazines are having but skimpy coverage, and the crisis of the sport is palpable. Luckily, it gets much better in the seventies, and from the eighties onwards I should have basically complete statistics for every race. It will, however, take a bit of time to get it all processed.

 

So, for now it's statistics up to and including 1966, a year which saw the conclusion of many great careers, including those of more than half a dozen world champions of the sport, an extraordinary number. The total number of riders competing is now up to 2,702, and here's a table of the top 150 riders with 24 or more starts, as before:

 

 

[Michael Ferner]

By now, the full list (up to and including 2001) has 99 riders (out of a total of 6,371) with 100 starts or more, led by Angel Nieto at 247, from Kneubühler (238), Findlay (227), Agostini (223), Read (206), Hailwood and Dörflinger (both at 202). Read and Hailwood, by the way, have already cleared the number of 500 entries overall (i.e. world championship events and other internationals). Staying with the title events, it is perhaps interesting to look at each of the categories seperately: I have ten riders with 100 or more starts in the 500cc class, namely

 

144 Randy Mamola

143 Alex Barros

142 Jack Findlay

128 Michael Doohan

126 Eddie Lawson

120 Álex Crivillé

117 Giacomo Agostini

107 Ron Haslam

103 Kevin Schwantz

102 Wayne Gardner

 

Only Ago tops the mark in the 350cc with 103 starts, and that is not likely to change even with lots more data, as the next ones in terms of numbers are Franta Stastny (56), Bo Granath (54), Patrick Fernandez (53), Billie Nelson (52) and Olli Chevallier (50), far, far behind. Eight riders clear the mark in the 250cc:

 

139 Carlos Lavado

138 Jean-François Baldé

134 Martin Wimmer

123 Harald Eckl

121 Loris Reggiani

120 Carlos Cardús

118 Jacques Cornu

116 Toni Mang

 

with Jean-Philippe Ruggia (97) and a fourth German, Jochen Schmid (92) completing the top ten. Again, eight riders in the 125cc:

 

142 Angel Nieto

134 Pier Paolo Bianchi

130 Johnny Wickström

122 Fausto Gresini

121 Ueda Noboru

115 Jorge "Aspar" Martinez

111 Sakata Kazuto

106 Eugenio Lazzarini

99 Dirk Raudies

97 Ezio Gianola

 

while Dörflinger is alone in the tiddler class, though Theo Timmer is almost certain to join him pending further research:

 

110 Stefan Dörflinger

98 Theo Timmer

88 Angel Nieto

87 Günter Schirnhofer

82 Rudolf Kunz

68 Hans Hummel

65 Reiner Koster

64 Chris Baert

57 Henk van Kessel

55 Eugenio Lazzarini

 

Last, we have the three-wheelers with, no surprise, Biland leading the way in all aspects:

 

184 Rolf Biland

141 Steve Abbott

141 Steve Webster

134 Alain Michel

120 Egbert Streuer

118 Rolf Steinhausen

107 Kumano Masato

105 Siegfried Schauzu

102 Derek Jones

97 Klaus Klaffenböck

95 Werner Schwärzel

 

By the way, and not really surprisingly, Masato Kumano has lost the distinction of being the first Japanese rider to reach the century to Takazumi Katayama who got there almost exactly six years earlier, according to my latest figures.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 23 April 2024 - 17:43.

[Michael Ferner]

For a bit of fun, some overall statistics, covering some 16,000 races in almost 50 countries, from the obscure to the sublime: the top 50 riders in number of entries, 198 or more:

 

523 Phil Read

496 Mike Hailwood

442 Giacomo Agostini

375 Jack Findlay

368 Chas Mortimer

352 Dan Shorey

340 Angel Nieto

334 John Cooper

314 Derek Minter

306 Bruno Kneubühler

305 Barry Sheene

303 Luigi Taveri

286 Jim Redman

276 Tommy Robb

247 Stefan Dörflinger

247 Tony Rutter

244 Toni Mang

235 Mick Grant

234 Rolf Biland

233 Stéphane Mertens

230 John Dodds

230 Carl Fogarty

230 Randy Mamola

229 František Šťastný

228 Kenny Roberts

227 Pierfrancesco Chili

225 Christian Sarron

223 Fergus Anderson

223 Raymond Roche

223 Aaron Slight

221 Gyula Marsovszky

220 Billie Nelson

219 Bo Granath

217 Dieter Braun

217 Ron Haslam

215 Jean-François Baldé

215 John Hartle

212 Paddy Driver

208 Hans Müller

208 Boet van Dulmen

206 Patrick Fernandez

204 Rod Gould

204 Walter Villa

203 Didier de Radiguès

202 Eugenio Lazzarini

200 Tom Herron

200 Jorge "Aspar" Martinez

200 Alberto Pagani

199 Alex George

198 Loris Reggiani

 

(and obviously, I was wrong in my previous post - Hailwood hasn't cracked the 500 mark yet)

 

The leading pre-war stars don't come within earshot of the top 100, but when mileage covered is counted, Stanley Woods is right behind the top four at almost 30,000 in only 143 races (!), with Ted Mellors, Wal Handley, Henry Tyrell-Smith, Frank Longman, Jimmie Simpson and Jimmy Guthrie all comfortably making the top 50 (this statistic is slightly spoiled by rather incomplete endurance racing results, which I have thus ignored in their entirety). US results are also lagging behind still, with Dick Mann leading so far at 168 entries, but there's lots more to come here, too. Anyway, it's all coming along rather nicely, and the full database is now around 220,000 lines, plus I have started on Motocross/Scrambling, at a rather modest six thousand something lines so far.

[nexfast]

I've been meaning to update this thread for a long time now, but boy, the sixties are hard to research!!  Even most of the specialized magazines are having but skimpy coverage, and the crisis of the sport is palpable. Luckily, it gets much better in the seventies, and from the eighties onwards I should have basically complete statistics for every race. It will, however, take a bit of time to get it all processed.

 

So, for now it's statistics up to and including 1966, a year which saw the conclusion of many great careers, including those of more than half a dozen world champions of the sport, an extraordinary number. The total number of riders competing is now up to 2,702, and here's a table of the top 150 riders with 24 or more starts, as before:

 

 

Great work, Michael! Just a small question browsing through the list. Any doubt about Vernon Cottle being British?

[Michael Ferner]

No, not at all. Some of the nationalities are still missing or wrong, as are some of the spellings, since it's a bit of a rush job in places. To be frank, I'm finding so much info that I find it hard to keep up with regular 'cleansing' routines to sort out these mistakes! But, thanks for noticing 

[Geoff E]

Great work, Michael! Just a small question browsing through the list. Any doubt about Vernon Cottle being British?

 

He was born in Wiltshire in 1926 and was a member of the Bristol MC Club, described in one newspaper article as "Bristol electrician".