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Rank: Michael Schumacher’s Rivals


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#1 aportinga

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 17:39

Probably forget a few here and there but...

 

- Senna*

- Hill*

- Hakkinen*

- Coulthard

- Villeneuve*

- Montoya

- Raikkonen*

- Alonso*

 

So in my order...

 

1. Senna - although it was only a few years, there were some battles on track behind the leader with these two and MS seemed to deal with the pressure quite well IMO. 

2. Hakkinen - The drivers and the cars were well matched and these few seasons gave us some great racing.

3. Villeneuve - The Ferrari was not great and he despite the 1997 end of season tactic from MS - this was a tought one.

4. Alonso - The Renault was just a better car in so much as I can recall. If the Ferrari was up to the task I would put this battle as #1.

5. Raikkonen - Just like MS with Senna, Raikkonen seemed not bothered challenging Schumacher. 

6. Hill - Would have loved too see more of Hill at Williams. He did really good but moving out of the team leaves some questions.

7. Coulthard - he agitated the situation at races often IMO. Challenged MS slightly but never had the pace.

8. Montoya - fast but IMO needed a solid car to challenge at the front. I would have loved too see Zanardi, Schumacher and Montoya at Ganassi in CART at the same time.

 

*World Champions

 

 

 

 



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#2 Dan333SP

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 18:43

Could arguably throw Nico Rosberg on there, only person on the list to have beaten him in the same car and also a WDC. 



#3 messy

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 18:58

To be fair I think Schumacher 2010-12 was an absolute shadow of the first version and I’d always exclude Rosberg for that reason.

It’s harsh on Nico, who arguably doesn’t seem to get praised whatever he does (ie beat Lewis Hamilton to the title), but I just can’t square that version of Schumacher with the one who drove for Benetton and Ferrari, just not the same proposition at all.

I’d go

Hakkinen - fairly good natured but a pure head to head between the two best of the era
Hill - not good natured at all and a bit messy but all those clashes were pure box office
Coulthard - maybe the guy who got under his skin the most and the needle between them was great value
Ralf - a proper needle between them early on, the Noel and Liam dynamic of F1
Villeneuve - famous for one moment really - albeit an iconic one - and maybe Estoril ‘96.
Alonso - fairly good natured and made less of a ‘thing’ by the mid-season performance swing towards Ferrari
Senna - never quite got going and was just set to begin at Imola.
Montoya - Brazil 2001 hinted at a big rivalry that just never really happened
Raikkonen - I don’t remember a great deal of conflict between them really.

Edited by messy, 18 August 2023 - 19:05.


#4 chdphd

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 19:02

If Nick Heidfeld did thread titles...

 

Spoiler



#5 RacingSmoke

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 19:11

Good list. I'd rank something like this:

 

1. Senna

2. Hakkinen

3. Raikkonen

4. Alonso

5. Rosberg

6. Villenueve

7. Hill

8. Coulthard

9. Montoya



#6 eab

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 19:15

If Nick Heidfeld did thread titles...

 

Spoiler

Quick Nick Slow Flick.


Edited by eab, 18 August 2023 - 19:20.


#7 aportinga

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 19:17

Makes me start thinking of those WC Drivers who raced against the most World Drivers Champions during their career.

 

Certainly Schumacher is up there...

 

Prost?

Piquet?

Mansell?



#8 Collombin

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 19:25

Fittipaldi must be way up there, but there'll be lots with similar numbers. Do you want future champions included?

#9 Myrvold

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 19:39

Only WDC's or how should we add drivers? If so, and not counting Michael Schumacher Career 2.0

 

  1. Ayrton Senna - because, well. It's Senna.
  2. Alain Prost - Because, well. It's Prost.
  3. Fernando Alonso - Probably the only one he fought against for a world title who has just as much "winning over anything" mentality with attitude and mind-games.
  4. Damon Hill & Jacques Villeneuve - They both got Schumacher a bit under their skin, and manage to irk him back. On their day, they could beat him on pure performance. Hill matured between 95 and 96, and I think he'd been a much bigger challenger if he'd kept the Williams seat. Villeneuve had one big advantage and one big disadvantage. Both being the same: "Being JV". Massive talent, but not the right mindset to work on it the way Schumacher did.
  5. Mika Häkkinen - Possibly the only title-rival Schumacher had, that he also seemed to get along with just fine. However, I've never been convinced about Häkkinens absolute performance. I know the impressivness of his McLaren debut. His 1992 was really good. He probably should've won a race before Coulthard in the McLaren. But then you have years like 1999 as well...
  6. Kimi Räikkönen - The iceman. Cool and collected. Doesn't give a * about anything. But the more we got to see of him, the more it looks to me like the McLarens he raced were really fast and fragile, and that he might not've been as fast as it looked.

 

A small little note here. I was a fan of Hill and JV when I was young.



#10 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 20:10

I think I got this one right

Mario Andretti raced against	        15	 World Champions
Emerson Fittipaldi raced against	15	 World Champions
Graham Hill raced against	        14	 World Champions
Niki Lauda raced against	        14	 World Champions
Michael Schumacher raced against	13	 World Champions
Jody Schekter raced against	        12	 World Champions
Nigel Mansell raced against	        12	 World Champions
Alain Prost raced against	        12	 World Champions
Nelson Piquet raced against	        12	 World Champions
Jack Brabham raced against	        11	 World Champions
Denny Hulme raced against	        11	 World Champions
Jackie Stewart raced against	        11	 World Champions
John Surtees raced against	        10	 World Champions
Alan Jones raced against	        10	 World Champions
James Hunt raced against	        10	 World Champions
Mika Hakkinen raced against	        10	 World Champions
Keke Rosberg raced against	        10	 World Champions
Alonso so far have raced against  	 9	 World Champions
Kimi Raikkonen raced against	         9	 World Champions
Jenson Button raced against	         9	 World Champions
Ayrton Senna raced against               9	 World Champions
Jochen Rindt raced against	         9	 World Champions
Nico Rosberg raced against               8	 World Champions
Hamilton so far have raced against	 7	 World Champions
Jimmy Clark raced against	         7	 World Champions
Phil Hill raced against	                 7	 World Champions
Sebastian Vettel raced against	         7	 World Champions
Jacques Villeneuve raced against	 7	 World Champions
Verstappen so far have raced against	 6	 World Champions
Juan Manuel Fangio raced against	 6	 World Champions
Mike Hawthorn raced against	         6	 World Champions
Damon Hill raced against	         6	 World Champions
Alberto Ascari raced against	         3	 World Champions
Giuseppe Farina raced against	         3	 World Champions

Not sure if a crazy statistic.



#11 AnttiK

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 20:12

Mika Häkkinen - Possibly the only title-rival Schumacher had, that he also seemed to get along with just fine. However, I've never been convinced about Häkkinens absolute performance. I know the impressivness of his McLaren debut. His 1992 was really good. He probably should've won a race before Coulthard in the McLaren. But then you have years like 1999 as well...

 

I think Häkkinen's 1999 gets underrated a bit because of two memorable mistakes and a lacklustre Nürburgring performance. But was '98 Mika really any better than '99 in the end? He also threw some points away in 2-3 races in '98 to driving errors. And I'm not sure if the '98 peaks were quite as impressive as '99 peaks. '99 had some crushingly dominant drives and also epic pole laps like Monaco. And it also had some memorable comeback drives through the field like Magny Cours & A1-Ring. Then when the moment of truth arrived in Suzuka, it was sayonara Ferrari.
 
I don't know, I just get the feeling '99 Mika gets underrated a bit because the two mistakes in Italy were so epic and memorable. But Häkkinen lost a whopping amount of points that year due to unreliability, McLaren's operational issues & DC doing some clumsy first lap driving. In contrast, I feel that 2000 often gets overrated simply because of Spa. But to me it seemed like some of the spark had already vanished that year and the countdown to retirement had already started. I prefer '99 Mika to the 2000 version.

Edited by AnttiK, 18 August 2023 - 20:21.


#12 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 20:29

When I think of Schumacher, I think of Hakkinen.



#13 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 20:30

Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, Lewis Hamilton - All-time greats I can not place either above the others.
Fernando Alonso - Closests to top level, I do however not consider him an all-time great.
Mika Hakkinen - Had a tenacity and race acument which few could do as well against Schumacher as him.
Kimi Raikkkonen, Nico Rosberg - Kimi had for a time speed like no other driver, Nico must be rewarded for beating Schumacher when team with him.
Jenson Button - Solid without being spectacular.
Jensen Button, Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve - Beat Schumacher through being in a rocketship, neither were anywhere near Schumacher talent wise
Sebastian Vettel, Nigel Mansell, Nelson Piquet - Did not really rival Schumacher in a meaningful way.


#14 Brod

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 21:08

I think we need to consider 2 variables above everything else: 

 

- nature of rivalry (how intense and how long)

- talent of the rival 

 

...so

 

1. Hakkinen: clearly number 1....just because they fought against each other for 3 intense years (well in theory...because we know what happened in 99) in a row. I think Hakkinen is the worst multiple world champion of all time but still solid and he is a huge part of Schumachers Ferrari legacy. 

2. Hill: Pretty similar to Hakkinen....2 hard thought battles and in 96 Hill ended Schumachers reign...yes with superior machinery and Hill is not his most talented rival, but when it comes to title fights...his second most significant one. 

- Senna: different story, but on the level of Hill. We were robbed in the most tragic way in 1994 but everyone saw it coming and we still can imagine how intense it could've been. Schumachers was the new kid...the only threat other than Prost Senna ever knew...I was 5 years old the day Senna died....it's one of the first races I can remember (sad also because I'm Austrian and it's also because of Ratzenberger that I remember that weekend)....but I still think about what could've been.

- Alonso: What Schumacher was to Senna, Alonso was to Schumacher...After the retirement of Prost (yeah maybe I should mention Mansell but for me Prost and Senna were a level above him...always) and Sennas death...Alonso was the first guy he faced on his level. I'm a huge Alonso-Fan and I personally prefer 2007 and 12 when it comes to Alonso but 2006 was one of the greates seasons of all time. The level of both Schumacher and Alonso was just crazy. Barely any mistakes....Schumacher threw it away once...that's basically it. Crazy. 

5. Villeneuve: Well Jerez. Nothing more to say. 

 

6. Rosberg: And I thought about even mentioning him..Imo it's hard to call it a rivalry...yeah, Rosberg basically is the main reason why everyone thinks Schumachers Comeback is failure (because no....it doesn't matter that the Merc was not the fastest car out there...look at Alonso...still in miserable cars, but nobody but a few "fans" doubting his performance) and I personally really think that Rosberg is better than 3 out of the 5 drivers listed above....but it wasn't an intense rivalry. 

7. Montoya: Last and least. The only reason why we even think about Schumacher vs Montoya is because Formel Schumacher was the **** back then. In 2001 and 2002 we didn't even know what competition was....Montoy and Michelin on hot days gave us something to dream about (well and compared to 2023 it was exciting....jesus christ ever since 2010 (or the second half of 2009) F1 really has a problem with dominance...moreso than ever). But that's it. He should've been what Alonso was to Vettel during Alos Ferrari days, but he was **** nothing compared to that. He was Schumachers Leclerc....


Edited by Brod, 18 August 2023 - 21:09.


#15 aportinga

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 21:13

I think I got this one right

Mario Andretti raced against	        15	 World Champions
Emerson Fittipaldi raced against	15	 World Champions
Graham Hill raced against	        14	 World Champions
Niki Lauda raced against	        14	 World Champions
Michael Schumacher raced against	13	 World Champions
Jody Schekter raced against	        12	 World Champions
Nigel Mansell raced against	        12	 World Champions
Alain Prost raced against	        12	 World Champions
Nelson Piquet raced against	        12	 World Champions
Jack Brabham raced against	        11	 World Champions
Denny Hulme raced against	        11	 World Champions
Jackie Stewart raced against	        11	 World Champions
John Surtees raced against	        10	 World Champions
Alan Jones raced against	        10	 World Champions
James Hunt raced against	        10	 World Champions
Mika Hakkinen raced against	        10	 World Champions
Keke Rosberg raced against	        10	 World Champions
Alonso so far have raced against  	 9	 World Champions
Kimi Raikkonen raced against	         9	 World Champions
Jenson Button raced against	         9	 World Champions
Ayrton Senna raced against               9	 World Champions
Jochen Rindt raced against	         9	 World Champions
Nico Rosberg raced against               8	 World Champions
Hamilton so far have raced against	 7	 World Champions
Jimmy Clark raced against	         7	 World Champions
Phil Hill raced against	                 7	 World Champions
Sebastian Vettel raced against	         7	 World Champions
Jacques Villeneuve raced against	 7	 World Champions
Verstappen so far have raced against	 6	 World Champions
Juan Manuel Fangio raced against	 6	 World Champions
Mike Hawthorn raced against	         6	 World Champions
Damon Hill raced against	         6	 World Champions
Alberto Ascari raced against	         3	 World Champions
Giuseppe Farina raced against	         3	 World Champions

Not sure if a crazy statistic.

 

Well done!

 

Damn!



#16 Primo

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 21:33

It might be because it was "Ferrari against the world" but, to me, the most distinct "duel" was against Mika. In hindsight it does not seem like a long time, but it was two seasons of Michael against Mika (and I always wondered if Mick is not named after Mika). Michael against Mika but, more importantly, Mika against Ferrari's first WDC since 1979. After Schumi won it in 2000, the "curse" was lifted and in many ways the battles meant less. To me.  


Edited by Primo, 18 August 2023 - 21:34.


#17 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 21:37


I think Häkkinen's 1999 gets underrated a bit because of two memorable mistakes and a lacklustre Nürburgring performance. But was '98 Mika really any better than '99 in the end? He also threw some points away in 2-3 races in '98 to driving errors. And I'm not sure if the '98 peaks were quite as impressive as '99 peaks. '99 had some crushingly dominant drives and also epic pole laps like Monaco. And it also had some memorable comeback drives through the field like Magny Cours & A1-Ring. Then when the moment of truth arrived in Suzuka, it was sayonara Ferrari.

I don't know, I just get the feeling '99 Mika gets underrated a bit because the two mistakes in Italy were so epic and memorable. But Häkkinen lost a whopping amount of points that year due to unreliability, McLaren's operational issues & DC doing some clumsy first lap driving. In contrast, I feel that 2000 often gets overrated simply because of Spa. But to me it seemed like some of the spark had already vanished that year and the countdown to retirement had already started. I prefer '99 Mika to the 2000 version.

I think Mika not being great in 1999 is because he was almost beat by Eddie Irvine to a title. And Malaysia comeback showed how fast Michael was in that car (let Irvine through twice and qualyfied 1 sec in front).

2000 was Spa related, but the mid season drama was sparkes also by several Michael bad luck stuff. Taken out by Zonta in Austria and car issues at the start in Nurburgring (was it Fisichella that rear ended the crawling Ferrari?) made the fight closer than it was. Spa is also a bit overrated because Zonta put his car in the middle of the track. Left or right were both good options with the same outcome

#18 Collombin

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 21:51

Well done!

Damn!


The bringing in Indy as a Mario/Emmo tiebreaker started with Emmo playing Jacques Villeneuve, but Mario not only saw it, he raised it with Jim Clark. Emmo folded.

#19 Gabrci

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 21:59

Senna: Still at his best, was awesome in 1993. If we looked at their whole careers Prost would probably edge it for me but he was way past his peak by then.

 

Alonso: If not for his personality he could be #1. In driving and racing terms definitely in the Fangio / Senna / Prost / Schumacher / Hamilton drawer. I think what he did in 2012 was on terms with Schumacher's in my view absolute peak 1998 season. He would have needed 11 or so points to be a 5 times world champion. His skills would absolutely merit that but he scored too many own goals. 

 

Prost: Cruised to his last title. Fair play to him, he did everything he had to do. The ultimate master. 

 

Mansell: A slightly tiring character but what a driver, what a racer and what a showman. 

 

Hakkinen: Ah, really difficult one. I did watch most of his career and was never really sure myself. Saw him race several times live as well. I think his ultimate pace was mighty, not Schumacher-mighty but only very very slightly off. The issue I felt was that he had to stretch himself too far for it and hence was able to deliver it 5 times a year while Schumacher was delivering it from the first practice lap in Melbourne to the flight home from the Christmas party. I remember hearing an interview with him about one of the Italy errors and he said it was because he had to push SO hard. I was like errrmm good morning, that's what Schumacher had to do non-stop between 1991 and 2000. Looking at it differently, he would have been the class of the field in the second half of the 1990's if not for Schumacher. How on earth did he manage to almost lose both the 98 and the 99 titles with that car I will never understand. When Schumacher had a car like that he was World Champion by July. And against Eddie Irvine of all people, FFS. Not top drawer but two world titles don't sound unjustified. 

 

Raikkonen: Insane natural talent, no nerves but not much skills in building teams and developing cars. His peak in 2005 was a joy to watch, I kind of think the title two years later was the reward for that, not for his already declining performance in 2007. I also appreciated that he didn't care and actually his short interviews were often the most interesting ones because he was giving actual answers, not what the PR person told him to say. 

 

Rosberg: Much better than what people give him credit for I think. Imagine Barrichello taking a title away from Schumacher. Sounds absurd, doesn't it? He really needed every tiny detail to be perfect to beat a faster driver in the same car over a whole season and he achieved that. 

 

Hill: an extremely rare case, mediocre all the way up then suddely the F1 cars suited him, which I don't think anyone expected. Totally outclassed by Schumacher but a remarkable man and I think a world title is a fair reward for a good season in 1996 - he had to win it really in that car against a rookie, second-rate team mate and he did, so well done. 

 

Montoya: fantastic talent and a fearless racer, a joy to watch. A bit more brain would have helped him an awful lot. 

 

Coulthard: a good driver, could possibly have beaten Hill to the 1996 title if he had stayed but Häkkinen was beyond him. Reliable, professional, I think being managed by Brundle helped his career a lot. 

 

Villenueve: he should be grateful to Phil Hill for not being the poorest World Champion by a countrymile. Developed into a really nice bloke by now, I have to give him that. I like him as a person. 



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#20 Gabrci

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 22:03

2000 was Spa related, but the mid season drama was sparkes also by several Michael bad luck stuff. Taken out by Zonta in Austria and car issues at the start in Nurburgring (was it Fisichella that rear ended the crawling Ferrari?) made the fight closer than it was. Spa is also a bit overrated because Zonta put his car in the middle of the track. Left or right were both good options with the same outcome

 

I agree that that overtake is a bit overrated but I do think it was great, particularly in terms of bravery after Schumacher chopped him so brutally the lap before. The question is more what he was doing behind Schumacher in a car that was far superior on the day, I remember it was so much faster on the straight. Still a good, opportunistic move to get past. 



#21 Brod

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 22:06

 In driving and racing terms definitely in the Fangio / Senna / Prost / Schumacher / Hamilton drawer. I think what he did in 2012 was on terms with Schumacher's in my view absolute peak 1998 season. 

 

 

Interesting what do you think was Schumachers second and third best season? 



#22 Beri

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 22:15

I think I got this one right

Mario Andretti raced against	        15	 World Champions
Emerson Fittipaldi raced against	15	 World Champions
Graham Hill raced against	        14	 World Champions
Niki Lauda raced against	        14	 World Champions
Michael Schumacher raced against	13	 World Champions
Jody Schekter raced against	        12	 World Champions
Nigel Mansell raced against	        12	 World Champions
Alain Prost raced against	        12	 World Champions
Nelson Piquet raced against	        12	 World Champions
Jack Brabham raced against	        11	 World Champions
Denny Hulme raced against	        11	 World Champions
Jackie Stewart raced against	        11	 World Champions
John Surtees raced against	        10	 World Champions
Alan Jones raced against	        10	 World Champions
James Hunt raced against	        10	 World Champions
Mika Hakkinen raced against	        10	 World Champions
Keke Rosberg raced against	        10	 World Champions
Alonso so far have raced against  	 9	 World Champions
Kimi Raikkonen raced against	         9	 World Champions
Jenson Button raced against	         9	 World Champions
Ayrton Senna raced against               9	 World Champions
Jochen Rindt raced against	         9	 World Champions
Nico Rosberg raced against               8	 World Champions
Hamilton so far have raced against	 7	 World Champions
Jimmy Clark raced against	         7	 World Champions
Phil Hill raced against	                 7	 World Champions
Sebastian Vettel raced against	         7	 World Champions
Jacques Villeneuve raced against	 7	 World Champions
Verstappen so far have raced against	 6	 World Champions
Juan Manuel Fangio raced against	 6	 World Champions
Mike Hawthorn raced against	         6	 World Champions
Damon Hill raced against	         6	 World Champions
Alberto Ascari raced against	         3	 World Champions
Giuseppe Farina raced against	         3	 World Champions
Not sure if a crazy statistic.

So you're counting future World Champions as well? So for instance, Rosberg has raced Schumacher, Villeneuve, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button and Vettel. But you're counting Verstappen too? He wasn't a World Champion back then when Rosberg called it quits.

#23 GunnarN7

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Posted 18 August 2023 - 22:47

Alonso - The Renault was just a better car in so much as I can recall. If the Ferrari was up to the task I would put this battle as #1.

 

 

Then put it #1 because the Ferrari was definitely up to the task in 06. I'd say the Ferrari was faster, not the Renault. While Alonso dominated the first half of the season, there were a few races in which he struggled against a very competitive Michael: Bahrain, Nürburgring, Imola and probably Monaco, they were looking closely matched before Schumi decided to park the car. After Canada though, the Renault was nowhere, there's not a single race from that point on in which the R26 was stronger, except for when it rained thanks to the Michelins. Some say this is because of the mass damper ban, but this didn't happen until Hockenheim and the Renault had been struggling for a few races already. Overall, the Ferrari was clearly the faster car.

 

As for the list, Hakkinen was a bit before my time but Michael said in multiple occasions he considered him to be his toughest rival. Senna was too early and Alonso too late in his career, so probably Mika has to be #1.



#24 George Costanza

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 04:51

Mika Hakkinen was quicker than Michael over one lap.

#25 George Costanza

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 04:53

Michael's 1995 season gets overlooked IMHO.

#26 DW46

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 06:23

Hakkinen > Hill > Villeneuve > Alonso > Raikkonen > Montoya > Ralf > Coulthard > Senna

Not being controversial, just didn’t get enough of Senna v Schumacher. Hard to place Rosberg isn’t it? I’d always disregarded Michaels comeback as an outlier due to age but every decent performance by Fernando weakens that argument slightly.

It wasn’t a particularly frosty rivalry so after Ralf?

If we are talking overall ability then I’d go: Senna > Alonso > Rosberg > Hakkinen > Hill > Villeneuve > Raikkonen > Montoya > Ralf > Coulthard

Again Rosberg could be 4/5 places lower that’s a hard one.

Edited by DW46, 19 August 2023 - 06:24.


#27 DW46

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 06:37

As for the list, Hakkinen was a bit before my time but Michael said in multiple occasions he considered him to be his toughest rival. Senna was too early and Alonso too late in his career, so probably Mika has to be #1.


I often wonder if there’s a bit of legacy in mind when retired drivers refer to their greatest rival. Alonso talks up his 06 title as being worth so much because they were won against Michael and I can understand.

#28 PlatenGlass

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 06:41

Mika Hakkinen was quicker than Michael over one lap.

One lap per season and dines out on it for the rest of the year. Like Leclerc v Verstappen.

#29 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 08:48

So you're counting future World Champions as well? So for instance, Rosberg has raced Schumacher, Villeneuve, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button and Vettel. But you're counting Verstappen too? He wasn't a World Champion back then when Rosberg called it quits.

 

Yes I count future World Champions as well.



#30 SenorSjon

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 09:23

Then put it #1 because the Ferrari was definitely up to the task in 06. I'd say the Ferrari was faster, not the Renault. While Alonso dominated the first half of the season, there were a few races in which he struggled against a very competitive Michael: Bahrain, Nürburgring, Imola and probably Monaco, they were looking closely matched before Schumi decided to park the car. After Canada though, the Renault was nowhere, there's not a single race from that point on in which the R26 was stronger, except for when it rained thanks to the Michelins. Some say this is because of the mass damper ban, but this didn't happen until Hockenheim and the Renault had been struggling for a few races already. Overall, the Ferrari was clearly the faster car.

As for the list, Hakkinen was a bit before my time but Michael said in multiple occasions he considered him to be his toughest rival. Senna was too early and Alonso too late in his career, so probably Mika has to be #1.


There was also a tire riot that season with (iirc) the Michelins using soft sidewalls to increase the contact patch. They had to change it during the season and lost a bit of performance due to it.

#31 realracer200

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 09:39

Senna

Alonso

Hakkinen

Montoya

Raikkonen

Villeneuve

Rosberg

Hill

Coulthard



#32 Spillage

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 09:53

Interesting question. Based on the whole careers of those drivers I'd rank them like this:

Senna
Alonso
Hakkinen
Raikkonen
Hill
Villeneuve
Montoya
Coulthard

But I think there are issues with selecting these drivers. Why include Senna and not Prost or Mansell? And if we're only including drivers whom Schumacher fought for the world championship, why include Senna?

If we were to include Prost and Mansell I'd have Prost between Senna and Alonso and Mansell between Hakkinen and Raikkonen.

There's a era of other drivers you could include from the comeback too. Schumacher was around so long that he had at least one teammate on the grid from 1977 until 2017!

#33 Beri

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 10:05

Can't say I'd include Prost. They weren't real rivals that season. Much like Verstappen not being a rival to Hamilton back in 2017.

Hakkinen - the second who beat Schumacher on merit in a season where both were equally matched. But the first who did so coming out of an underdog position considering the previous years
Alonso - Beat Schumacher on merit and was the first of the new generation to do so
Montoya - The third who beat Schumacher at times on merit. Just not consistent enough
Senna - Senna is Senna. But at the moment where it did count, 1994, Senna cracked more than once under Schumacher's pressure
Hill - Cracked under Schumacher's pressure. Had his heyday at a time where Schumacher wasn't a threat
Raikkonen - Very fast in his day at Woking, but very unlucky. No real competition to Schumacher over a complete season
Villeneuve - Just one season of true competition. First who beat Schumacher on merit, but that simply isn't good enough to place him higher on the list
Rosberg - Only beat Schumacher when he was already older and not the same Schumacher he once was
Coulthard - Was he a rival?

Edited by Beri, 19 August 2023 - 10:06.


#34 Sterzo

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 12:17

 

Hill: an extremely rare case, mediocre all the way up then suddely the F1 cars suited him, which I don't think anyone expected.

I would say: Hill: an extremely rare case, started racing late, underfunded all the way up, then showed in F1 how good he was, which I don't think anyone expected.



#35 AlexPrime

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 12:33

I personally think that Fernando was his toughest rival, the guy who dethroned him and put his superiority as a driver in doubt. That Imola race in 2005 was amazing and in 2006 he had a slower car in the second half of the season and managed to win, despite occasionally losing his cool.
On paper, Senna of course is the greatest rival, but I think even when they drove together, it seemed that he is past his best which Michael is the rising star, so I don't know how tough it was for Schumacher to beat him. Usually the younger buck manages to beat the older guy.
Mika Hakkinen was historically the best frenemy and they had great championship battles, but I think Newey helped Mika stay in them.
Sadly for me, as I was a fan of Damon, Schumacher had the measure of Hill, mostly psychologically. Villeneuve was mentally tougher, but slower than either IMO.
Coulthard and Montoya were rivals for some races, not on the same level as Michael.
Kimi is difficult to judge, I think his 2003 season was amazing, so apart from Alonso, he could have been the toughest. 



#36 tifosii

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 13:51

As for Alonso,I never heard Michael talk about Alonso..I wonder what does he think about Alonso?Michael must have many thoughts after their fight on the track such as Alonso’s personality,driving skill,chaos at Mclaren,struggle at Ferrari..

#37 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 14:11

As for Alonso,I never heard Michael talk about Alonso..I wonder what does he think about Alonso?Michael must have many thoughts after their fight on the track such as Alonso’s personality,driving skill,chaos at Mclaren,struggle at Ferrari..

 

I never really think of them as rivals, to be honest. In 2005 Schumacher had a woeful Ferrari and it was Kimi Vs Alonso...the only year it was Schumacher Vs Alonso was 2006 really. From memory, I can't remember too many on-track battles or incidents between them, the Imola 05 and Suzuka 130R pass stand out for me. It was quite a short-lived rivalry between the two.

 

All forgotten in 07 of course, when Alonso had Lewis on his hands.



#38 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 14:21

To answer the original question (and expanding on my previous post), when I think of Schumacher I think of Hakkinen and then probably Hill...maybe it's me looking back with nostalgia but for me, Schumacher seemed to have more battles and incidents with those two that were memorable. I never really think of Senna as a Schumacher rival (although he undoubtably would have been had he not been killed in 94). Alonso? Meh, not really, as explained in my previous post. JPM had an explosive rivalry with Schumacher but it was very rare on track. Villeneuve was only for a year really, despite us all remembering Jerez 97. Same with Raikkonen really, they only properly battled in 2003.



#39 messy

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 14:27

Yeah I think this is a funny thread because some people are ranking his rivals in terms of which of his rivals was the greatest, while others are rating them based on their rivalries with him. I did the latter. You’d get two completely different lists depending on how you interpret the question.

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#40 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 14:59

To answer the original question (and expanding on my previous post), when I think of Schumacher I think of Hakkinen and then probably Hill...maybe it's me looking back with nostalgia but for me, Schumacher seemed to have more battles and incidents with those two that were memorable. I never really think of Senna as a Schumacher rival (although he undoubtably would have been had he not been killed in 94). Alonso? Meh, not really, as explained in my previous post. JPM had an explosive rivalry with Schumacher but it was very rare on track. Villeneuve was only for a year really, despite us all remembering Jerez 97. Same with Raikkonen really, they only properly battled in 2003.

 

That is how I should have posted.



#41 PlatenGlass

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 16:39

I'm awarding prizes in four categories:

 

I think Schumacher's best rival: Senna. Although they never had that championship battle, they were often around the same position in 1992/3 as well as the start of 1994, so they had a lot of battles - just not generally for first. So I would count them as rivals.

 

Schumacher's best championship rival: Alonso. I'd definitely put Alonso clear of Hakkinen, Hill and Villeneuve. Edit - And Raikkonen and Montoya.

 

Schumacher's best contemporary rival: Hakkinen. Easily beats Hill and Villeneuve.

 

But as for biggest actual rivalry, I'd have to go with Damon Hill. Other drivers were closer to Schumacher in terms of skill, but I felt that with the clashes and battles on track, Hill wins this quite easily. Hakkinen obviously also had those two championship battles, but it seemed to me that they rarely actually found each other on the track. One would win one week and the other another week. They might occasionally swap places in the pits. Close points battles but not much scrapping between them. Villeneuve was also very fleeting as a frontrunner. So Hill for this category.


Edited by PlatenGlass, 19 August 2023 - 20:08.


#42 RacingFan10

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 18:19

We should define what makes a rival "greater". By logic shouldn't be who beat Schumacher to the title the most when both were in real contention?

MS lost 3 times a direct head to head WDC battle, to JV, to Hakkinen and to Alonso
 

 

Hill 0 MS 2

Villeneuve 1 MS 0

Hakkinen 1 MS 2

Coulthard 0 MS 1

Kimi 0 MS 1

Montoya 0 MS 1

Alonso 1 MS 0

 

I don't put 2002/2004 as MS had zero opposition. I dont count 1999 with half a season off.

And Senna never could do a direct head to head battle for WDC against him but they were 1-1 if we count 92 and 93.


Edited by RacingFan10, 19 August 2023 - 18:19.


#43 PlatenGlass

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 19:50

Which three years are you counting for Hakkinen and one for Coulthard?

#44 eab

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 19:57

Which three years are you counting for Hakkinen and one for Coulthard?

Apparently '01 was counted as a double KO.



#45 DW46

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 20:01

Great thread idea @aportinga 👍

#46 Anuity

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 21:48

Looking at it in retrospective Hakkinen was Michael’s greatest rival.

I think a lot of Michael’s fans consider his 98-00 seasons as his best and absolute peak. I personally think 98 was his finest despite losing the title.

 

2006 was very good and nice and fair battle with Fernando, but it never really grew into a rivalry.

in Absolute terms it must be Senna/Prost, I have recently rewatched some races from 92-93 and was surprised to remember how many moments Schumacher and Senna had on track.

it reminds me a lot of Verstappen vs Hamilton 2020-2021.



#47 P123

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Posted 19 August 2023 - 22:04

To answer the original question (and expanding on my previous post), when I think of Schumacher I think of Hakkinen and then probably Hill...maybe it's me looking back with nostalgia but for me, Schumacher seemed to have more battles and incidents with those two that were memorable. I never really think of Senna as a Schumacher rival (although he undoubtably would have been had he not been killed in 94). Alonso? Meh, not really, as explained in my previous post. JPM had an explosive rivalry with Schumacher but it was very rare on track. Villeneuve was only for a year really, despite us all remembering Jerez 97. Same with Raikkonen really, they only properly battled in 2003.

 

Intensity of rivalry vs length of rivalry vs quality of driver.  I think lists would be different depending on what importance people put on each of these.  With Senna we were robbed of an actual rivalry - it was brewing, but never developed.  Alonso is the best he faced head to head, but it wasn't as tense as with JPM (there was a lot on track - Brazil, Austria, Nurburgring, Monza, Spa... Indianapolis, Melbourne, Silverstone..) or Hill or Villeneuve.  Hakkinen was probably the longest period of championship fights that he had with a single rival, followed by Hill.  JV was one year, but that rivalry burned bright at the end, and then it was over.



#48 Anuity

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Posted 20 August 2023 - 01:16

Juan was a great f1 driver, but I personally don’t see any rivalry between him and Michael, it never took off. It was a combination of Ferrari being simply better in 2002 and Montoya being sporadic in 2003. 

if we only take seldom on track battles then again Ayrton vs Michael looked much more exciting, just my opinion.

 

with Jacques it just culminated when it was all about to start, which is a shame in a way, I think Jacques would have provided exciting races in 99-01 had he driven for McLaren against Michael.

not taking anything away from Mika though.



#49 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 August 2023 - 02:12

There’re Senna and Alonso. Complete packages.
There’s Mika who was talented but inconsistent. A real talent though.
DC a true fighter - didn’t have the outright talent.

And that’s about it. JV should have easily won 1997, Eddie Irvine was 7th in the standings that year behind both Williams, Mclaren and Benetton cars. JV should have walked it.
Damon was hit and miss (mostly miss) - I was a fan of his.

#50 messy

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Posted 20 August 2023 - 06:52

I think 1998 was maybe the year with the most pure Schumacher peaks and the year where he looked most like a hero for dragging a supposedly inferior car onto the level of the McLarens - but in hindsight I think that year was also perfectly set up to make him look an absolute superhero. Because actually once they got past the first couple of races and the McLaren ‘brake steer’ was banned, Ferrari developed that car very quickly and got on terms. Look at Irvine. After the first two races of the season, the easy McLaren 1-2 finishes with everyone else miles behind, Coulthard and Irvine matched each other point for point (I know DC lost a couple of potential wins to reliability). Also Schumacher made some pretty daft errors that season like Spa (where he’d have taken the points lead had he continued to that easy win) and stalling on the grid at Suzuka. Point being, I’d struggle to ever say Hakkinen didn’t deserve that title, and if I was doing a season top ten it’d be a proper ‘head vs heart’ decision on whether to put Michael or Mika at #1.

People downgrade Mika’s achievements for the same reason they put Schumacher on a pedestal - the perception of how they achieved their results. Schumacher this driven, blood and guts force of nature dragging an inferior Ferrari round while Mika wafted round undramatically in an Adrian Newey Super Rocket McLaren. In hindsight I don’t think that’s fully accurate. Mika was a great, great rival for Schumacher and actually DC wasn’t half bad either because even if he wasn’t as consistent a threat and it was only the odd race when the two came to blows, on those days they fought it out and DC often came out ahead, rude gestures and all. But it wasn’t as messy as with Hill, where rather like Hamilton vs Max in ‘21 they just always seemed to clumsily crash into each other every time their cars were anywhere near each other on track.

Edited by messy, 20 August 2023 - 06:53.