58 replies to this topic

[Primo]

I'm curious. I used to follow DTM closely until some 3-4 years ago and I gave trid again this season, but it does not touch me.
Is it only me? 

[ezequiel]

In my personal experience it has lost its personality after becoming just another GT3 series. I'm not saying the racing is bad or anything, I'm not able to watch as much as I would like, it's just that the generic car concept feels so unlike the uniqueness of traditional DTM machinery.

[messy]

Oh God I loved the DTM when it actually had its own identity. In the mid 2000s I probably would have ranked it third behind F1 and the WRC in terms of how closely I followed it. It filled the BTCC Super Touring era shaped hole in my heart and I thought it was absolutely brilliant. What’s passing as the DTM right now has absolutely zero identity, it’s just a GT3 series and a poor relation of the GTWC at that.

It’s costs though, isn’t it? It was never going to survive forever as it was with the cost involved.

Edited by messy, 19 August 2023 - 14:49.

[opplock]

I've only ever attended 2 DTM meetings. The first was as a flaggie at Brands Hatch around 2009 or 2010. The whole meeting was a borefest. 

 

I attended all three days at Norisring last month. Thoroughly enjoyed it. I've flagged World GT and British GT in the past but found the DTM spec cars to be much more exciting. The circuit probably helped. I was in Alphatribune for both race days.  

[Beri]

When DTM was really a touringcar championship, it was fantastic. Certainly during the 90s (with hindsight looking back as I didn't follow it back then) and during the early 00s it was awesome.
Nowadays it has no identity. It is, like said above, just another GT series.

[Silverstone96]

DTM was fantastic in the 90’s, it was very good in the 2000’s….it was a little bit meh in the last decade but it was still most certainly DTM.

What they pass over for it now is not DTM, in fact it’s an insult to the name.

I get that costs got too high, then create something else more sustainable that still has DTM in the dna not this poor imitation.

I’d rather they shut the series down to be honest.

So no, it’s not just you!

[PayasYouRace]

I voted less than before, which is impressive because I barely cared for the German-Manufacturer-Playground-Team-Orders-Series that was DTM, with the exception that when the series was included in the ToCA Race Driver games, I at least had a bit of contact with the series so I'd keep an eye on which circuits were in use and what Mika Hakkinen and Jean Alesi were up to. More recently, not even those awesome looking Aston Martins from the dying days of the old cars were enough to get me that interested. But the team orders and the cheating (I remember one driver being disqualified when his team filled his overalls with water in the post race pen, to make him weight more at the weigh in and cover up the car being run underweight) never sat well with me.

 

The GTM could be more interesting. I've always said I'd like a sprint race series for sports cars, when the default is endurance racing with driver changes. And yet, I can't find much reason to follow along.

[LolaB0860]

It's a clone GT3 series identical to 738 other clone GT3 series, what would you expect

[highdownforce]

The joint regulament with GT500 was a pointless exercise.

GT500 is a prototype series that refuses to use the silhouette of a prototype. That works in Japan, but there is ELMS in Europe.

Germany has plenty of GT3 cars to offer.

As a matter of fact, if current DTM was a GT3 series limited to BMW M4, Audi R8 and AMG GT cars we would hardly notice that a major change happened.

Edited by highdownforce, 19 August 2023 - 21:27.

[LolaB0860]

GT500 is a prototype series that refuses to use the silhouette of a prototype. That works in Japan, but there is ELMS in Europe.

 

Manufacturers don't want Oreca spec series with Zytek spec engines and Dunlop spec tires

[highdownforce]

Manufacturers don't want Oreca spec series with Zytek spec engines and Dunlop spec tires

USA worked that out with DPi/GTP

[Beri]

USA worked that out with DPi/GTP

DTM stood for insane production cars on steroids. 9000-ish rpm revving 400-ish horsepower churning cars that played with the minds of men with mullets chewing on Bratwursten who couldn't wait till Monday to buy themselves a M3, 155, Calibra or 190e (I know different year cars).

Pretty much the same as US racing once stood for; "Perform on Sunday, sell on Monday"
But I doubt the current formulae in the USA being workable for DTM.

[August]

My interest in DTM took a hit already back when they went from single-race weekends to shorter doubleheader races. I mean, missing a race on Saturday wasn't a big deal when there's another on Sunday, and if I missed Sunday's race, there will be two races again in the following event. Plus a longer race is more interesting from the standpoint of race strategies.

Going to GT3 cars, DTM lost its identity of touring car racing. Also, it's brand was very much about German premium brands racing with factory programs, the prestige of which has been now lost.

Also, the 2021 season finale left a sour taste. While there are no more official factory teams in DTM, manufacturer orders still happen like in that race. Not a very good look for the championship. To make a comparison to IndyCar, no way you'd see Andretti or RLL giving up a win for Ganassi to win a championship for Honda.

[highdownforce]

DTM stood for insane production cars on steroids.

That is GT3.

Touring Cars around the world took the path of TCR or silhouette racing. DTM is better of as a Pro GT3 series than this.

GT500 outgrew the concept of "production cars on steroids". It is a full prototype class.

Edit:

What I can conceded on the feeling of disconnection is that silhouette series like Nascar and Stockcar Brasil may bring resemblance to everyday cars.

But under the fiber glass, there is nothing like it.

Edited by highdownforce, 19 August 2023 - 22:56.

[Beri]

That is GT3.
Touring Cars around the world took the path of TCR or silhouette racing. DTM is better of as a Pro GT3 series than this.
GT500 outgrew the concept of "production cars on steroids". It is a full prototype class.
Edit:
What I can conceded on the feeling of disconnection is that silhouette series like Nascar and Stockcar Brasil may bring resemblance to everyday cars.
But under the fiber glass, there is nothing like it.

That is not GT3; it is what Touringcar championship racing should be and what was best about it. Hence that DTM is no longer what it was and it is just another egg in the same overcrowded GT3 basket.

[highdownforce]

DTM was no longer DTM way before GT3.

The series was using safety cells and carbon fiber chassis with no link whatsoever to any production model.



DTM was as much "production" as Nascar's Camry.

Edited by highdownforce, 20 August 2023 - 01:23.

[jcbc3]

These images is what German touring cars was about to me:
 

Spoiler

 

 

point being that it was personalities that were driving.

[LolaB0860]

These images is what German touring cars was about to me:

 

This kind of stuff is probably for you then

 

[juicy sushi]

I mean, you’ve got basically 4 eras. The original Group A days, the crazy tech era, the silhouette revival, and the turbo Super GT era. 2 of the 4 were too expensive. 3 of the 4 had way too much team orders. None of the 4 are really viable now.

GT3 is not ideal, but the series wasn’t going to survive doing anything else.

[Stephane]

At least, it's an unique format within gt3.

No driver change sprints (albeit long ones)

Edited by Stephane, 20 August 2023 - 11:46.

[jcbc3]

This kind of stuff is probably for you then

 

...

 

Hmmm, I fail to see the connection. (mostly because there is nothing showing when I click the channel). Is it because 'old skool' you mean?

[SenorSjon]

I loved the era with the Alfa 155. It was still great in the Merc/Opel/Audi time. But like some said before, the switch to double headers diminished the importance of a race and losing half the races in the end made you care less about losing the other half as well.

[highdownforce]

These images is what German touring cars was about to me:

Spoiler

point being that it was personalities that were driving.

DRM championship allowed Touring Cars and Sportcars (see the Porsche 935).

For instance, the Lancia on the first picture is a Group 5 "Super Production" spec that... you guessed... raced on the World Endurance Championship (WSC), just like the 935.

Edited by highdownforce, 20 August 2023 - 17:16.

[PayasYouRace]

These images is what German touring cars was about to me:

Spoiler

point being that it was personalities that were driving.

There’s a lot of sports cars and grand tourers in there.

[George Costanza]

DTM was never the same after 1995-1996.

[Stephane]

Yeah. Racing was bad in 97 to 99

[AlexPrime]

Objectively it's more interesting now, but it's just another GT3 series. So I am less interested.

[jcbc3]

OK, maybe I should clarify that I consider DRM and DTM as two sides of the same coin.

[Lennat]

DTM was never the same after 1995-1996.

I didn't even follow it (or any racing) back then, but I love the DTM/ITC cars of that era. Fast, loud exciting and great looking, while still resembling the road versions to a reasonable extent.

With modern touring/GT cars I always get the feeling they should have more power and/or crappier aero/tires to look exciting.

[PayasYouRace]

OK, maybe I should clarify that I consider DRM and DTM as two sides of the same coin.

To be fair I consider them a single lineage too. In a way, the current “GTM” goes back to the sport car roots of the old DRM.

[AlexPrime]

I didn't even follow it (or any racing) back then, but I love the DTM/ITC cars of that era. Fast, loud exciting and great looking, while still resembling the road versions to a reasonable extent.

With modern touring/GT cars I always get the feeling they should have more power and/or crappier aero/tires to look exciting.

Aye, the older DTMs looked badass, the newer versions and the GT3 look very cool, but it's not the same.

[chdphd]

They're definitely not "Tourenwagen" anymore.

[Teleriel]

Truthfully I'm a huge fan of GT3 racing but I can't watch it because it's on a channel I don't own, which is frustrating because I've tried to follow DTM for years. 

I think with GT3 racing largely you know what you're going to get, but I do miss the ridiculous aero that the real beasts at the end of the BMW/Merc/Audi era had, those things looked amazing and sounded great.

[flatlandsman]

Should have been allowed to die in peace, going GT3 diluted GTWC and the ADAC Ring series to a greater degree, it is a dead series and needs to be allowed to go I am afraid.

 

DTM should be about saloon cars, not GT3's there are enough series for them already, the racing is not always great and with IMSA and WEC going this way too the people who run DTM need to find another route to keep making money as that is the only reason it's still alive.

[juicy sushi]

What other route is there, though?  The DTM/DRM was essentially a top-level series for German-based race teams.  The Germans manufacturers have all clearly stated/demonstrated they do not feel there is any commercially-viable reason for them to fund such a series.  So, it has to be something done with private teams.  In this post-COVID world are there enough sponsors lying around eager to throw money at them for private teams to run some expensive, unique cars in a racing series?  

 

Since there isn't, they need to do something with the cars they already have.  And that limits you to either GT3, GT4, TCR, or some form of vintage racing.  They chose the fastest, most expensive, and most prestigious route they could.  I am not sure what alternative was available for them.

[Primo]

What other route is there, though?  The DTM/DRM was essentially a top-level series for German-based race teams.  The Germans manufacturers have all clearly stated/demonstrated they do not feel there is any commercially-viable reason for them to fund such a series.  So, it has to be something done with private teams.  In this post-COVID world are there enough sponsors lying around eager to throw money at them for private teams to run some expensive, unique cars in a racing series?  

 

Since there isn't, they need to do something with the cars they already have.  And that limits you to either GT3, GT4, TCR, or some form of vintage racing.  They chose the fastest, most expensive, and most prestigious route they could.  I am not sure what alternative was available for them.

You are probably right. At the same time it highlights the dilemma of modern racing in general - it is simply not terribly exciting. Yes, the cars in DTM are fast, really fast, but cars on rails do not look fast. Not even F1 look particularly fast. Tracks are too big, cars are too perfect and the sound/image production does nothing to compensate for that. A slow car that slides and have visible suspension moves often look faster than a monster car that show no sign of stress. So my theory is that they could have gone the other way around. 

 

It is not a coincidence that Pixar shows racing like this:

https://twitter.com/...278254826696773

Edited by Primo, 21 August 2023 - 14:25.

[juicy sushi]

You are probably right. At the same time it highlights the dilemma of modern racing in general - it is simply not terribly exciting. Yes, the cars in DTM are fast, really fast, but cars on rails do not look fast. Not even F1 look particularly fast. Tracks are too big, cars are too perfect and the sound/image production does nothing to compensate for that. A slow car that slides and have visible suspension moves often look faster than a monster car that show no sign of stress. So my theory is that they could have gone the other way around. 

 

It is not a coincidence that Pixar shows racing like this:

https://twitter.com/...278254826696773

I agree entirely, and that's why I like what Formula E did with their Gen3 cars.  But most management of racing series do not think like that.  They're loyal to the pattern of race car design that most series follows rather than thinking about what fans want to see first, and then creating technical rules from that premise.

 

It's really hard to do that in a series like the DTM where you don't have manufacturers investment money, but other touring car series have tried.  The STCC are going to do modified, high HP EVs without much downforce, NASCAR's entire approach is built around lots of power, not very much grip, and the Supercar series in Australia has always been using that philosophy.  In theory, you could probably do it in DTM if you wanted to use sort of TA2 or GT4 chassis, with the production based motors using production levels of power, and making sure the cars were aerodynamically rubbish.  Many of the Germans teams could easily build those kinds of cars, but it would be very hard to convince everyone to do it.

[Silverstone96]

Without sounding like an old fart, current cars aren’t as exciting.

DTM and Aussie Supercars both have libraries of their full races on YouTube (DTM from 2000, V8SC from about 1997), working your way through these can be quite fun if you didn’t catch all of that era at the time and generally enjoy living in the past

[flatlandsman]

You do not have to continue a series for the sake of it, especially when it then denigrates other series as drivers, teams are split apart to compete in one or the other, it's silly.  IN honesty GT3 can probably cope with this for now, but not maybe in the future, so populace is it. 

[George Costanza]

DTM cars in 1995 were just as technological in F1. Incredible.

[Stephane]

Even more, with TC, abs, AWD ,....

[juicy sushi]

And it was dead in 4 years because no one was watching and no one could pay for it.

[ARTGP]

The current cars are nice to look at but ultimately there's so much GT3 content to go around that I don't feel like I'm missing anything. 

[azza200]

The current cars are nice to look at but ultimately there's so much GT3 content to go around that I don't feel like I'm missing anything. 

 

Have to agree there is GT3 every where now, i get that its cost effect having so many GT championships worldwide but some variations of championships have tiny grids GT3 WC in USA & Aus from what i have seen on youtube small grids and the racing is bland GTWC US is boring as ****. Now that could be just by how the TV cameras are set up or its the tracks. I caught some of the racing at Road America this weekend and its was crap. 

 

Germany has ADAC which has good racing DTM with the same cars is really not needed unless they opened the rules up to seperate it from ADAC and to make it standout a little or go back to DTM in the early 2000's. The Merc's, Audi's, Opel's were great looking cars 

Edited by azza200, 22 August 2023 - 09:39.

[flatlandsman]

ARTGP that is the point very succinctly put. 

[George Costanza]

And it was dead in 4 years because no one was watching and no one could pay for it.

The rising prices are the reason why it didn't work. But of course that's natural.

[Sterzo]

Given the DTM as it was couldn't be sustained, it's a shame they didn't adopt BTCC rules and substitute the more exciting cars for more exciting racing. Plus there could be crossover, with maybe a joint event each year.

[Ben1445]

The rising prices are the reason why it didn't work. But of course that's natural.

Don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with either rising costs or expensive cars, so long as there is sufficient public interest to make it worth the investment from either manufacturers or sponsors.

Problems only occur with it when series management is unable and/or unwilling to act dynamically and effectively to keep those two aspects nicely matched. I think DTM fell squarely into that trap under ITR.

So I think my broader question about all of it is what is the public interest in when it comes to motorsport and why? Why were Class 1 cars not popular enough to justify the spending on them? What will be the featured of a modern series in five to ten years? Does that align with anything which we would deem worthy of the ‘DTM’ moniker?

Edited by Ben1445, 22 August 2023 - 11:23.

[juicy sushi]

I mean, racing is inherently expensive, but I think there is a problem when the level of cost exceeds the ability of the local racing economy to be able to generate a full grid (I'd call a full grid 20 cars).  

 

Racing fans want the most exciting race in the world featuring the most technically advanced, fastest machines ever devised.  The reality is that those two things don't go together.  So, the ideas of speed, racing action, and visual spectacle are always in tension.  The old DRM lent heavily on the speed and visual spectacle sides, but the series died out as the cars were surpassed by Group C, but the teams didn't have the ability to sustain a grid of those.  The DTM began as a generic Group A touring car series that was unusual only due to the level of factory support in the series.  West Germany being the largest European economy meant that a Group A series being treated as the top-class was easy to economically support and the series was able to thrive with plenty of racing action and visual spectacle (the crashes).  Then the series moved on to F1-levels of tech, but without the financial support to fund a full grid of that, leading to a series that traded the visual spectacle (a full grid with lots of action) for speed.  It failed.  A few years later the DTM gets revived with a series that traded some of the speed for a cheaper set of rules that were supposed to deliver more racing action and visual spectacle.  And they did at first.  But the heavy manufacturer involvement led to excessive spending on aerodynamics and heavy use of team orders, leading to the visual spectacle declining.  The costs were still viable, but a trade off was occurring that meant the series hit a glass ceiling of support.  Attempts to go international didn't solve the problem.  Then they launched into an ill-considered rules merger with the Japanese Super GT series that didn't lead to greater manufacturer interest for either side, but did lead to increasing costs for participants.  Which then killed the series again.

 

The DTM organizers consistently have ambitions to create an extremely expensive, high-level series which never has enough  fan or sponsor interest to cover the costs.  And attempts to subsidize the grid via heavy manufacturer involvement have always come at the cost of ruining the racing through team orders, only to see manufacturers exit at roughly the 3-year mark when upper management notices that the series completely failed to meet any of the commercial goals that had been required for the investment.

 

A DTM needs to be what the name says it is.  A German series (in location), racing family cars.  Given the direction of the sport, that's going to mean hybrids or EVs.  And it will require someone to manage the costs responsibly for a change.  I think the DTM would be better off adopting the same approach as the EV-only STCC, and try to run a series using Mercedes EQE, BMW i4, Polestar 2 and Tesla Model 3 cars.  It won't be very quick, but it will be financially viable, and recreate enough of the door-banging Group A-era approach that it might be fan-supported at a sustainable level.  If they want to keep doing the GT3 thing, fine, but call it the DRM for accuracy.

Edited by juicy sushi, 22 August 2023 - 14:31.

[flatlandsman]

I was hearing this year that an Oreca is pushing 700k purchase price these days, that is a vast sum for any car and I would suspect GT3 cars are probably getting way over 400k each, and then you have all the support costs, spares etc.  You cannot run one of these things on any less than a 2 or 3 mill a year budget even in a national series I would think, and that is probably below par.  I know they are fast cars but it is getting a little crazy costs wise in GT3 right now.

 

Then again a top WRC car costs way more than that and you cant even buy one!!