34 replies to this topic

[Louis Mr. F1]

Well, we talked alot about the Senna-Prost, Senna-Schuey battle, but it's often overlooked the Mansell-Senna fights in the past, and most of them were very intense, sure more intense than the Prost ones as Mansell was not easy to give in.

what do you think? still some memories of them?
i'm not too sure, but i think Mansell was bitter (maybe) to see Senna took his old seat at Lotus and got all the praises from Peter Warr, the team manager of Lotus, who had openly criticized Mansell in the previous few years. As well, Senna got immediate success with Lotus, which Mansell failed to achieve in the four years of driving for Lotus.

there were certainly alot of clashes between these two.


what do you remember of these two titans?

Trivia: do you know which year, both Mansell and Senna drove for the same F1 team?

[Drinky]

I only started watching F1 in 1992, so I remember Monaco '92 best. Senna superbly held off Mansell after he was forced to pit.

They both drove for Williams in 1994, though sadly not at the same time.

[Indian Chief]

DOes anyone know what exactly happened at Spa in 1987? In his book Mansell hinted that Senna was trying a "dirty trick" coming out of Pouhon.

[Duck]

If I remember correctly, Estoril in '86 was a classic. I REALLY miss those sparks flying out from the cars bottoming. What memories !

[Louis Mr. F1]

Duck, can you elaborate a bit? what was so special about Estoril 86?

do you guys remember when was the last time Mansell and Senna had a crash?

[Williams]

Originally posted by Louis Mr. F1
do you guys remember when was the last time Mansell and Senna had a crash?

Canada '92 ?

[MrAerodynamicist]

Australia 92 - "Mansell and Senna battled at the front until lap 19 when the Williams slowed suddenly behind the pits and Senna, caught unawares, ran into the back of it. Senna felt that Mansell had braked to shake him off. Whatever the case, both men were out."

[Louis Mr. F1]

the amazing thing is, that was the last time they raced each other. And they ended with a crash. That signified their rivalry.
Mansell ssaid Senna missed his braking point and Senna claimed Mansell braked earlier than normal.
Senna wanted to shake hands with Mansell after the accident, (since Mansell would be going to IndyCar in 93) but Mansell declined and ran away. That's the last time they saw each other.

If i remembered correctly, Mansell didn't even attend Senna's funeral.

[senninha]

Louis,

I agree with you in part.

Mansell and Senna had a big rivalry with a lot of bad moments (like: Mansell punching Senna at Spa in 87 - Senna learned and did the same with Irvine; Mansell blackfalgged destroing Senna's WDC chance at Portugal 89).

But was very exciting to see both. Senna's fans respect a lot Mansell abilities (more than Prost). In fact, when Senna's bashers try to down Senna and compare him with Prost, they should try to use Nigel, wich had great moments against Senna.

Hopefully, Nigel is VERY dumb (sorry) and lost some amazing opportunities.

I may be wrong. But Mansell and Senna became not exactaly friends, but have more respect for each other from 91 on.

Mansell is very popular in Brazil. When some brit fans try to compare Nigel with Damon Hil, i feel sorry for the Lion.

[MONTOYASPEED]

Originally posted by Louis Mr. F1
Duck, can you elaborate a bit? what was so special about Estoril 86?

do you guys remember when was the last time Mansell and Senna had a crash?

I think he says Jerez '86. It is the closest finish in F1 history. It was Senna over Mansell by .014 seconds ;)

[markzed]

I remember watching that race - I was running around the lounge room screaming for Senna to hold out. Magnificent race...

[Mila]

Louis Mr. F1, yes, absolutely no question that Mansell was bitter over circumstances of his departure at Lotus. and Warr WAS subsequently quick to heap praise on Senna.

Indian Chief, I'm not sure about any dirty tricks exiting Pouhon (weaving, maybe?), but the two were more or less side by side as they approached Les Fanges, the corner where they spun off in tandem.

let's not forget the two coming together in Australia 85, or in Brazil 86, or in Portugal 89; or their little incident in Canada 92.

[senninha]

Originally posted by Indian Chief
DOes anyone know what exactly happened at Spa in 1987? In his book Mansell hinted that Senna was trying a "dirty trick" coming out of Pouhon.

It was just a "very optimist" attempt by Nigel

Mansell tried to do an impossible overtake over Senna by OUTSIDE (hey, Senna is not Berger) on a curve wich is impossible to overtake, in the first lap... both went out and Senna's race over (Mansell could continue but lost some time)

[Louis Mr. F1]

i remember Mansell said, Senna missed a gear and was slow suddenly. So Mansell had to pull out and pass on the outside, but then Senna wasn't about to give up the position, ended up both off the track. Also, Mansell originally held 1st place, but a red flag caused him to fall behind Senna on the restart. Maybe he was anxious to get back HIS position.

After the accident, Mansell continued for a while but his car was damaged and subsequently had to retire. Once he got out of the car, he marched to the Lotus pit and grabbed Senna's nect and threw a few punches. Unfortunately, it wasn't shown on TV.

Their rivalry was full of controversy!!

[MrAerodynamicist]

Originally posted by Louis Mr. F1
Their rivalry was full of controversy!!

Well, the one thing you can say about Mansell was he never had a dull race!

It makes you wonder, do Senna-Mansell hold the record for most coming togethers?

[Louis Mr. F1]

Mr.A

we can count:
85 European,
85 Australia,
86 Brazil,
87 Spa,
89 Portugal,
92 Canada,
92 Australia.

7 crashes in total (from my memory)

that's quite alot.
+ many other near misses like Spa 92, Hungary 89, Barcelona 91

i think when battling on track, senna feared mansell more than prost, as prost was too easy. but prost could setup his car better-> faster.

Since mansell left for indycar, there was the continuation of prost-senna battle, but their on track battle wasn't as intensed, as prost was usually intimated by senna's moves.

[Earthling]

Those were definately the best days of F1.
Late 70s to early 90s IMO.

[Simioni]

canada 92 wasn't a crash, Nige went out on his own.

[lhampton]

Shouldn't this be in Nostalgia?

[Louis Mr. F1]

yes it is, but there are still some oldies around here.

Simoni, maybe you're right. But Mansell insisted Senna forced him off the track while he attempted a pass. Mansell spun across the grass and the car stopped in the middle of the track.

Mansell had didn't get out of the car and waited a full lap when the field came pass again. Then he made a gesture to Senna, signified his displeasure. Not content with that, he proceeded to the Mclaren pit and yelled at Ron Dennis "he called himself a 3 times WC but he pushed me off the track" (something like that)

Senna said he did nothing wrong, just Mansell attempted an impossible move.

[MrAerodynamicist]

Could it be that both were as stubborn as mules?

[Schummy]

I think the thing about Mansell/Senna "encounters" was Senna had this attitude about don't let anybody go by, and Mansell big balls.

And I agreed they were obstinate as mules Their clash produced many memorable moments, and some blatant idiocies.

I remember the brillant Jerez close finish, Mansell passing Ayrton in Hungary, etc. But I remember the worst of all: Mansell ramming Senna after being black-flagged, but also Senna/Mansell crash in Adelaide, and so on,...

If I think about an opposite to Senna/Mansell fights, I could think of a Prost/Coulthard rivalry . It would be all courtesy and flowers ;) . They would kiss in the grid and wish good luck. If one of them had mechanical failure the other one would go with best wishes at his motorhome. When a rainy race they could agreed in not racing and going to play checkers in the motorhome

[Witt]

These two really had an interesting rivalry. They seemed to have so many on track incidents together, as well as being involved in some of the most memorable wheel to wheel racing moments in F1 history. After the incidents, even after the racing battles, they were always at loggerheads with each other. And then there were the times when they used to hug each other on the podium and the famous episode where Mansell gave Ayrton a ride home on his car at the 91 British GP. It seemed like a bad on/off relationship these two had.

Both were enormously couragous on the track. I wasn't a big fan until after both these guys left the scene, but i've done my homework on their era. I've always held the opinion that Mansell was the equal of Senna, the only thing that stopped him being as great was his consistency, which Senna had plenty of. Remember, Mansell could easily have been a three time world champion too if not for a few short, but signficant mishaps in the closing stages of both the 86 & 87 seasons.

[MrAerodynamicist]

four if Williams had a slightly better start to '91!

[Duck]

Louis Mr. F1,
Montoyaspeed is correct with respect to the '86 race which was so exceptional - it WAS Jerez.
- Duck

[Louis Mr. F1]

speaking of Jerez86, remember it was the 2nd race of the year, after Brazil, where Mansell crashed out after trying to make a move on Senna failed.

In Jerez, early in the race, when Senna tried to pass Mansell, Mansell closed the door on Senna very firmly, putting the Brazilian all locked up and had to use the grass a bit to avoid hitting the Williams. Unfortunately for Mansell, he eventually was passed by Senna when his tires performance dropped, and lost the race by a very slim margin.

Come to think of it, i think most of their crashes were a result of an attempt by Mansell to pass but always encountered firm resistence from Senna.

Brazil86,
Spa87,
Portugal89,
Canada92
and i'm not sure about Australia85 (have to check the video)

so it just confirms that Senna wasn't about to lose a position to anyone. While Mansell was one of the bravest to attempt those moves, he has been a victim of Senna's tactic on several occassion.

[Louis Mr. F1]

here are the responses i got from the nost-forum, some have very interesting insight that i would like to share with you.

-----------------------------


I would answer the question by another one: who got along
with Senna?! Except Gugelmin and maybe Berger I don't see
anyone.
As for the Mansell-Senna clashes they even had a fight after a
collision (Spa 87?) didn't they? By the way, brazilians must be
the best boxers of the history of F1: Piquet vs Salzar in
Hockenheim 1982, Mansell-Senna and Senna again vs Irivine in
Suzuka 1993! I also can remember Senna and Schumacher
almost punching each other during a private test sesssion
(Hockenheim?? Monza?? 1992?? 1993??)

For the trivia: it must be 1994. Senna as we know did the first
three GPs with Williams before is tragic accident and Mansell
came back beetween to CART races at Magny-Cours. He did a
few other races after France and won the last round in Australia.

FEV



Rainer Nyberg
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3 05-29-2001 02:14

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Yes I am sure Senna was difficult to deal with but I sure the ego of
"our Nige'" had something to with it also.
Nigel had a fair share of controversies during his time, but I remember
he was getting along fine with Keke Rosberg.


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jmcgavin
Member



4 05-29-2001 03:39

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Wasn't Rosberg pretty unhappy that Mansell was going to Williams for
85.

I could be wrong but I'm not sure they got on that well until Mansell
had his shunt in France that year. I do remember Rosberg's
statement at Silverstone regarding how courageous he believed NM
was qualify in 5th after his accident at Paul Ricard. I believe that
they got on a lot better after that as KR had a newfound respect for
NM.


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want to go faster I don't drive any faster I just concentrate harder -
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Vanwall
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5 05-29-2001 05:38

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Don't get me wrong ... I'm a huge fan of Nigel as a driver. Aggressive,
accurate, a great strategist and a great opportunist (Silverstone
1987, Hungaroring 1989 etc).

But Senna was an aristocrat, a man from a privileged background,
someone born to recognise and assert his innate superiority whilst
Nige is what we in Australia call a battler. A self made man from an
economically not so prosperous part of England.

So he felt he had something to prove. His language was all about
"please accept me" (read Nige's autobiography "The People's
Champion" for a veritable feast of "what people don't understand" and
"people don't realise") and there was no greater need in Nige the
driver than to be seen as an equal of Senna. How many times in
interviews have we heard Nige categorising himself with Senna and
Senna alone in the context of driving?

Was there really animosity between the two? I think not at a
fundamental level. It was just that Nige was a working class lad who
wanted to be seen as one of the elite.

If only he'd let his driving do the talking. It was all the eloquence he
needed.

Not that Nige was wholly the Brummie accented complainer and
Ayrton wholly aloof and unaware of Nigel and his tremendous driving
talent. Ayrton was very much aware of how to press Nigel's buttons
and never was this more effectively demonstrated than by his offer
to drive the Williams for no retainer in 1993 just while Nigel was at
the most delicate point in his negotiations to re-sign for '93 for the
retainer he felt he deserved.

Was there ever a more sublime piece of mischief 'twixt one driver and
another?

Vanwall.



No27
New Member



6 05-29-2001 06:14

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Did Mansell did not get along with Senna or did Senna did not get
along with Mansell?

I think both were very difficult persons for anyone to get along with.
But Nigel seems to be more difficult than Senna because he was
complaining so much about anything. Patrick Head once said that
Mansell was a "pain in the arse". Off course Nigel later complained
that this quote was taken out of context etc.
Meanwhile, Senna was just beating everyone.



Marco94
Member



7 05-29-2001 06:23

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Except for that anoying little French guy of course. ;-)
--------------------------------------
to a certain extent, i agreed with Vanhall's assessment.


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[senninha]

Originally posted by Louis Mr. F1


Come to think of it, i think most of their crashes were a result of an attempt by Mansell to pass but always encountered firm resistence from Senna.

Brazil86,
Spa87,
Portugal89,
Canada92
and i'm not sure about Australia85 (have to check the video)

so it just confirms that Senna wasn't about to lose a position to anyone. While Mansell was one of the bravest to attempt those moves, he has been a victim of Senna's tactic on several occassion.

Firstily i was thinking you were trying to be impartial on you analysis but since i noticed something like "Senna basher", i'll add some things:

1 - What happened in Brazil 86 ? I remember a great brazilian party with piquet and Senna(1st and 2nd);

2 - Spa 87 - Mansell tried to overtake in (a) impossible place,(b) by outside,© on first lap and still (d) punched Senna. So...

3 - Portugal 89 - Mansell, (a) blackflagged, putting Senna (b) from behind. Mansell wasn't even in race anymore. Battling for position ?

4 - Canada 92 - both did mistakes. Senna was cathing Mansell

5 - Australia 85 - has nothing to do with Mansell. Was Senna and Rosberg thing.

Pure nonsense your theory of POOR NIGEL AND BAD SENNA.

[klipywitz]

Err,

maybe it is me, but I didnt really get a BAD SENNA vibe... At least I dont think he was "BAD" or evil. Quite the contrary. He was, however, extremely good at what he did and very strong mentally -- which Nigel wasnt, since I agree he needed acceptance.

[Louis Mr. F1]

Senniha,

i don't think what i said was trying to imply a Poor Mansell and Bad Senna, not at all. If you read carefully again, i just said Senna would defend his position firmly, and i never the words like unfairly or weaving, ..... Do you agree that Senna defended his position very firmly everytime someone comes up? so i don't think your accusation is accurate at all!
On the Mansell fan side, they could be saying i was criticizing Mansell was too aggressive and not careful enough in those accidents, too.

You are just too sensitive in this case.

by the way, the Australia85 accident, i was talking about the first lap Mansell-Senna one, not the Rosberg-Senna in the later part of the race.
and Portugal89, i was just talking about the accident itself and had nothing to do with the black-flag.
and Brazil86, what does the Brazilian party have to do with the accident?

[senninha]

Originally posted by Louis Mr. F1
Senniha,

i don't think what i said was trying to imply a Poor Mansell and Bad Senna, not at all. If you read carefully again, i just said Senna would defend his position firmly, and i never the words like unfairly or weaving, ..... Do you agree that Senna defended his position very firmly everytime someone comes up? so i don't think your accusation is accurate at all!
On the Mansell fan side, they could be saying i was criticizing Mansell was too aggressive and not careful enough in those accidents, too.

You are just too sensitive in this case.

by the way, the Australia85 accident, i was talking about the first lap Mansell-Senna one, not the Rosberg-Senna in the later part of the race.
and Portugal89, i was just talking about the accident itself and had nothing to do with the black-flag.
and Brazil86, what does the Brazilian party have to do with the accident?

This quote made me imply your things: "While Mansell was one of the bravest to attempt those moves, he has been a victim of Senna's tactic on several occassion. "

Mansell as a victim ?????

About Australia85, i think you may be wrong.

About Brazil86, i'm asking to you what happened, i simply don't remember what happened!!

Cheers,

[mikedeering]

Portugal 1989 - NM punting Senna???

As I recall, Nigel had effectively won the corner, and Senna just turned across him - Nigel was almost alongside him!!! As for the blackflag - neither Mansell or Senna saw it - they siad as much, so it's not like Mansell deliberately took him out!

I remember Nigel as being the only guy who could overtake Senna in a straight fight - I never really saw Prost do so after Portugal 88.

I think originall, Senna-Mansell disliked each other, but were united in a joint front against Prost after Mansell's experience at Ferrari, and all the negotiations with Williams for a seat in 1992. I remember a hilarious post race interview at Estoril in 92 with Senna, Mansell and Berger. Senna was slating Prost big style - suggesting if Prost was a 100m runner he would want all the competitors to have cememt boots and himself to have Nikes (some weird analogy about Williams vs the rest!!!). Mansell was patting Senna on the back and generally trying to convince the world they were both victims of the evil (and slower) Prost! This friendship lasted until Australia that year I think!!!

[Peeko]

No mike, Mansell didn't win the corner. It was an over zeolous move on Nigel's part. At the most, his front wheel was just, and I mean just, past Senna's rear wheel.

[Louis Mr. F1]

just a quick picture to remind you the iamge:



japan91, mansell off on his own, well, he said long pedal.


finally, at Monaco92, a great battle in the last few laps, still remember it?

[senninha]

Despite some dissapointments, THAT time was the greatest time i've ever seen in F-1 ...