497 replies to this topic

[efuloni]

I didnt find any topic about it, so started a new one.

It is not the first time Helmut says something like that and I dont think it will be the last. However, he somehow always seems to get away with it.

""Let's remember that he is South American and so his head is not as focused as Max Verstappen or as Sebastian Vettel was, but racing is his forte and he had a very good race".

https://www.marca.co...f62d8b459d.html

[1player]

No need for a thread, we know his views are... outdated, to say the least. Shake your head and move on, unless one wants to try to defend the indefensible

Edited by 1player, 07 September 2023 - 14:41.

[RacingSmoke]

Another one in a long line of disrespectful and racist remarks from Helmut. 

 

It's become such a pattern now it reflects on the Red Bull brand and team very poorly. I hope his retirement is sooner rather than later.

[Risil]

Inaccurate as well, as Perez is not South American. Maybe he's thinking of his time managing Juan Pablo Montoya in 1997.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Maybe it's just me, but calling things like this 'racist' undermines what racism actually is. People try to be offended by any small thing these days.

 

The 'hot headed' latin (Italian, Spanish, South American, etc.)

The 'cool' Finn/Nordic countries

The 'no sense of humour'/'efficient' Germans

The 'rude/uncultured' British

The 'emotionless' Russians

The 'perennially drunk' Irish

The 'emotional' Italians

The 'loud' Americans

 

It's probably becoming a bit outdated to say these things but I've no idea why people become so offended by it. I find it quite funny (and often true) most of the time.

[efuloni]

Inaccurate as well, as Perez is not South American. Maybe he's thinking of his time managing Juan Pablo Montoya in 1997.

I think he just doesnt care. From Mexico and under, to him, its all south america and 'mexicans'.

[PayasYouRace]

Maybe it's just me, but calling things like this 'racist' undermines what racism actually is. People try to be offended by any small thing these days.

The 'hot headed' latin (Italian, Spanish, South American, etc.)
The 'cool' Finn/Nordic countries
The 'no sense of humour'/'efficient' Germans
The 'rude/uncultured' British
The 'emotionless' Russians
The 'perennially drunk' Irish
The 'emotional' Italians
The 'loud' Americans

It's probably becoming a bit outdated to say these things but I've no idea why people become so offended by it. I find it quite funny (and often true) most of the time.

You don’t find it offensive when someone says a negative stereotype about you because of where you live?

[Risil]

Maybe it's just me, but calling things like this 'racist' undermines what racism actually is. People try to be offended by any small thing these days.

The 'hot headed' latin (Italian, Spanish, South American, etc.)
The 'cool' Finn/Nordic countries
The 'no sense of humour'/'efficient' Germans
The 'rude/uncultured' British
The 'emotionless' Russians
The 'perennially drunk' Irish
The 'emotional' Italians
The 'loud' Americans

It's probably becoming a bit outdated to say these things but I've no idea why people become so offended by it. I find it quite funny (and often true) most of the time.

Attributing intellectual capabilities to your heritage or place of origin sounds like the textbook definition of racism to me

[Muppetmad]

I know Red Bull gets a lot of unearned criticism here, but in the case of Helmut Marko, the team effectively sanctions his comments by allowing him to say stuff like this without consequence. Dismissing these comments as "just Helmut being Helmut" is effectively saying "Helmut has free licence to say what he wants without consequence, since it is an innate part of his personality", the latter part of which itself is the case only because he has been allowed to say what he wants up to now without consequence. If he'd been told "the next time you say something so stupid, you're out" several years ago, I imagine he'd have conveniently learned to keep such stupid comments to himself, or at least save them for behind closed doors.

[IrvTheSwerve]

You don’t find it offensive when someone says a negative stereotype about you because of where you live?

No. Not to the point of caring about it, anyway.

Edited by IrvTheSwerve, 07 September 2023 - 15:14.

[George Costanza]

I didnt find any topic about it, so started a new one.

It is not the first time Helmut says something like that and I dont think it will be the last. However, he somehow always seems to get away with it.

""Let's remember that he is South American and so his head is not as focused as Max Verstappen or as Sebastian Vettel was, but racing is his forte and he had a very good race".

https://www.marca.co...f62d8b459d.html

I guess Dr Marko forgot about Ayrton Senna, who I believe is perhaps the greatest of all time.

Edited by George Costanza, 07 September 2023 - 15:14.

[JRodrigues]

You don’t find it offensive when someone says a negative stereotype about you because of where you live?

 

That's just stupid, not racist.

[P123]

I think more pandering to a stereotype- we routinely over the years have heard a lot about the apparent temperament of 'Latin' drivers.  And Perez isn't South American, so Marko's geography is a bit off too.

[Cliff]

You don’t find it offensive when someone says a negative stereotype about you because of where you live?

 

Being offended by everything is one of the biggest downfalls of current society. 

[Frood]

Whatever you class Marko's views as, there's no place in the sport for them. The sooner attitudes like his go the way of the dodo, the better.

[Risil]

Being offended by everything is one of the biggest downfalls of current society. 

 

How do you suggest we find out what it's OK to be offended by?

[pdac]

Another one in a long line of disrespectful and racist remarks from Helmut. 

 

It's become such a pattern now it reflects on the Red Bull brand and team very poorly. I hope his retirement is sooner rather than later.

 

It is extremely disrespectful. It is a pattern. But I don't think it's going to affect the Red Bull brand one iota.

[DaddyCool]

You don’t find it offensive when someone says a negative stereotype about you because of where you live?

Not necessarily, I have a thick skin and a sense of humor

[PayasYouRace]

No. Not to the point of caring about it, anyway.

To be fair, Risil’s retort was better.

[Zoe]

You don’t find it offensive when someone says a negative stereotype about you because of where you live?

Actually, if it is just telling the stereotype, no.

 

I know that we Bavarians are often looked at as some weird talking hillbillies, drinking lots of beer and doing funny dances in which men whack their a$$es

 

You know, for me at least, a stereotype is not a personal offense. If someone says it like "Oh you Bavarians" I can mostly laugh with at them. If someone says to me "you are Bavarian and thus you are stoopid" I take offense. Subtle difference, and of course it might just be me.

Edited by Zoe, 07 September 2023 - 15:55.

[AV1]

You don’t find it offensive when someone says a negative stereotype about you because of where you live?

 

No, not me. But finding something stereotyping is not perse giving you a valid argument to say it's racist. It could be perceived as insulting, or offensive and his phrasing was not smart. But it also feels people are very happy to get the pitch fork out. 

 

People in Belgium will say things about Germans, The Germans about the Fins. The Dutch about the French. Is that racist? Or more about differences in culture. There are even management books dealing with topics like 'national/regional cultural differences'. That's not about race... And yes, those books are dealing with stereotyping. But as someone that has been working abroad, cultural differences can be significant.  

[Zoe]

Yeah, back when the company I work for has seen better times, we got training such as "working with French" and the like.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Attributing intellectual capabilities to your heritage or place of origin sounds like the textbook definition of racism to me

I mean, it’s not something that I personally do, but national stereotypes aren’t something that I get offended by. It’s just a lazy way of criticising someone (and sometimes praising them).

 

Clumsy comment from Marko, but I don’t think it warrants him being called a racist.

[Muppetmad]

Sure, but this isn't Marko saying, for example, that the British have a cultural tendency to add milk and sugar to their tea (which, as a Brit, I am allowed to say is an abomination). I'll concede the line can be blurred, but this isn't one of those instances where it is ambiguous.

Edited by Muppetmad, 07 September 2023 - 16:04.

[H0R]

 

Bavarians are often looked at as some weird talking hillbillies, drinking lots of beer and 

Can confirm. 

[PlatenGlass]

I mean, it’s not something that I personally do, but national stereotypes aren’t something that I get offended by. It’s just a lazy way of criticising someone (and sometimes praising them).

 

Clumsy comment from Marko, but I don’t think it warrants him being called a racist.

 

It can be a problem when people try to decide in the binary whether something is racist or not, as if everything is exactly racist or exactly not racist. But regardless, throwing around negative stereotypes like this is not a good thing, and it's not as if it's been said privately in jest between two people who understand each other. So whether one wants to call it racist or be offended, it's still a negative thing that Marko did.

[AV1]

How do you suggest we find out what it's OK to be offended by?

 

Well, not not by shouting racism, when it is not. When a person feels offended, that person can explain why he/she/them/they/it feels offended. Then the other person can give their point of view. Then both can agree/disagree and drink a beer together. 

 

Or we can burn down the internet, start topics, call someone a racist, state that the person should be cancelled, or should go the way of the dodo.... Making the world even a more shitty place, just by contributing to the mess as bystander.  

[Risil]

Well, not not by shouting racism, when it is not. When a person feels offended, that person can explain why he/she/them/they/it feels offended. Then the other person can give their point of view. Then both can agree/disagree and drink a beer together. 

 

Or we can burn down the internet, start topics, call someone a racist, state that the person should be cancelled, or should go the way of the dodo.... Making the world even a more shitty place, just by contributing to the mess as bystander.  

 

Isn't this exactly what's happened? Obvs the second part can't be done as we can't force Dr Marko to respond here.

[H0R]

Racism doesn't start when you throw jews into gas chambers. It starts way before that, with words alike Marko's

[IrvTheSwerve]

I’m a Brit, with an Italian mother. Sometimes when my emotions come out people will say ‘there’s your Italian side coming out there’. Do I get offended? Of course not. We often see Brits labelled as louts when abroad, uncultured…I know that I am not. It’s moderately frustrating obviously but I’d never conflate all that with ‘racism’.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Racism doesn't start when you throw jews into gas chambers. It starts way before that, with words alike Marko's

Godwin’s law is still alive and well I see.

 

Isn’t this all just Xenophobia?

Edited by IrvTheSwerve, 07 September 2023 - 16:16.

[Perton]

I'm South American. Not offended by Marko his comments. They're stupid, but I don't consider them racist.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't be offended. It's just not something I would waste my time on. Old people who think like this will all be gone in a few years anyway, so there's that.

[pacificquay]

I’m a Brit, with an Italian mother. Sometimes when my emotions come out people will say ‘there’s your Italian side coming out there’. Do I get offended? Of course not. We often see Brits labelled as louts when abroad, uncultured…I know that I am not. It’s moderately frustrating obviously but I’d never conflate all that with ‘racism’.

 

Maybe English football fans get given that monicker.

 

But go to many parts of America and Brits in general are seen as highly cultured.

 

 

As for Marko, he's 80 years old, he comes from a different time, but he needs to remember he's speaking now, not in 1973.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

You don’t find it offensive when someone says a negative stereotype about you because of where you live?

Do I enjoy that?  Of course not.  Would I prefer that it weren't said?  Of course, and depending on the situation I may nudge them towards not saying such things in the future.  Am I offended by it?  Not if it's just a thing (maybe not the most thought-out thing) said in passing and not meant to put me down.  The more I get offended at stuff that's just stupid but not malicious, the less exceptional the truly malicious stuff becomes.

Edited by Dmitriy_Guller, 07 September 2023 - 16:20.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Maybe English football fans get given that monicker.

 

But go to many parts of America and Brits in general are seen as highly cultured.

 

 

As for Marko, he's 80 years old, he comes from a different time, but he needs to remember he's speaking now, not in 1973.

Exactly, it’s tarring people with the same brush just because they’re born in the same country…which is bloody daft and ignorant for the most part, but ‘racist’?

[Zoe]

which is bloody daft and ignorant for the most part

 

Well, Marko is Austrian, so there

 

Now I said it.......

 

I think it is also a generation issue. The generation of Marko has grown up using words, that are considered as highly offensive today, as normal words without (mostly) a negative meaning, for example.
 

[CharlesWinstone]

Can someone please explain to me what is so racist about Marko's comment? As far as I know, people from the southern countries of Europe or America are more laid back and take life as it comes. The Germans, for example, are known for working out everything in detail and leaving nothing to chance. German "Gründlichkeit" is well known.
Marko has worked with the three of them and if Checo's way of working is not as much focussed as Seb and Max than maybe its just some southern influences. I don't read any condemnation or disapproval in his comment.
But if you are looking for a racist remark then you are more likely to find one. All in the eyes of the beholder i guess.

Edited by CharlesWinstone, 07 September 2023 - 16:27.

[loki]

Sure, but this isn't Marko saying, for example, that the British have a cultural tendency to add milk and sugar to their tea (which, as a Brit, I am allowed to say is an abomination). I'll concede the line can be blurred, but this isn't one of those instances where it is ambiguous.

Absolutely.  How barbaric.  Who in their right mind drinks tea instead of coffee?…

 

 

[AlexPrime]

I agree with people who think that the perpetually offended are a bane of modern society. I also have big respect to Marko, a Targa Florio winner, if I am not mistaken, an achievement I value far more than being politically correct or woke.
With that being said, I don't agree with him. Checo is similar to Brazilian Barrichello, but also to sore aussie grit Webber and icy finn Bottas. Getting pummelled by a teammate is simply no fun for a driver and motivation, along with concentration, fades. Being reportedly hotheaded or not doesn't matter. In fact, after German Vettel realised that emotional French talking Leclerc is faster than him, he crumbled to dust.
There is some truth in stereotypes, but not in F1 where the best of the best race and generally not in motorsports, where people I believe are not representative of the general populations at all. Few people would consider the Swiss petulant and vindictive, but there you go with Buemi and Menu. Drivers are very bright individuals, because they need ego to race. That's what makes them fascinating.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Well, Marko is Austrian, so there

 

Now I said it.......

 

I think it is also a generation issue. The generation of Marko has grown up using words, that are considered as highly offensive today, as normal words without (mostly) a negative meaning, for example.
 

Not like Marko to say something controversial for the media either!

 

There were a lot of comments about Vettel having a surprising sense of humour ‘for a German’ at the time…hell, he even took the mick out of Germans himself in his Top Gear interview. 
 

Storm in a teacup.

[loki]

Exactly, it’s tarring people with the same brush just because they’re born in the same country…which is bloody daft and ignorant for the most part, but ‘racist’?

His comments are a bigoted stereotype. 

[AlexPrime]

Absolutely.  How barbaric.  Who in their right mind drinks tea instead of coffee?…

 

 

Both, why not both? And milk in black tea is fantastic! 

[GlenWatkins]

Marko's commemt was inappropriate to be sure. My initial thought was that he was incorrectly stereotyping Perez, not being racist towards him.

[Organic]

Horrible dinosaur that RB should get rid of asap. This is just one example of many

If you're keeping him around for his work with the junior program only, that should be scrutinized as well. Their junior program missed out on signing Norris, Piastri, Antonelli whilst bringing good but not exceptional drivers in such as Yuki. His main job is not even being done well imo

[IrvTheSwerve]

Both, why not both? And milk in black tea is fantastic! 

I f**king hate queuing despite what they say. 

[AlexPrime]

Horrible dinosaur that RB should get rid of asap. This is just one example of many

If you're keeping him around for his work with the junior program only, that should be scrutinized as well. Their junior program missed out on signing Norris, Piastri, Antonelli whilst bringing good but not exceptional drivers in such as Yuki. His main job is not even being done well imo

Lawson is super good though

[jonpollak]

Maybe it's just me, but calling things like this 'racist' undermines what racism actually is. People try to be offended by any small thing these days.

 

The 'hot headed' latin (Italian, Spanish, South American, etc.)

The 'cool' Finn/Nordic countries

The 'no sense of humour'/'efficient' Germans

The 'rude/uncultured' British

The 'emotionless' Russians

The 'perennially drunk' Irish

The 'emotional' Italians

The 'loud' Americans

 

It's probably becoming a bit outdated to say these things but I've no idea why people become so offended by it. I find it quite funny (and often true) most of the time.

Thank you Irv,

I am the loudest person I know.

And these clichés didn't just arrive out of thin air.

 

Jp

[Goron3]

I didnt find any topic about it, so started a new one.

It is not the first time Helmut says something like that and I dont think it will be the last. However, he somehow always seems to get away with it.

""Let's remember that he is South American and so his head is not as focused as Max Verstappen or as Sebastian Vettel was, but racing is his forte and he had a very good race".

https://www.marca.co...f62d8b459d.html

In the native language, I'm fairly sure there is no 'and'. It reads more as two separate sentences - i.e. his lack of focus isn't because he is mexican.

(Not defending the comment, but I do need to re-listen to the audio).

[Organic]

In the native language, I'm fairly sure there is no 'and'. It reads more as two separate sentences - i.e. his lack of focus isn't because he is mexican.

(Not defending the comment, but I do need to re-listen to the audio).

Yeah the "and so" is not there in my opinion either. But why mention that he is south American immediately before saying he isn't focused.. it's obvious he is using the bigoted stereotype. But it's just not as overt as if the "and so" was there

[Iannone]

Comments were not in good taste. And to compare directly not cool.

If you compare people from the cities of New York and California the latter are more laid back.