104 replies to this topic

[Organic]

AMuS reports that for singapore, along with TD018 coming into effect, they will also revise TD039 (first introduced 2022 summer) with greater clampdown on flexible plank exploitation. As we saw last season, something like this can affect competitive order quite a bit

AUTO MOTOR UND SPORT [STORY TRANSLATION] - The FIA ​​keeps a close eye on the teams. Because there was too much trickery with both the base plate and the wings, new rules come into force in Singapore.

On August 22nd, the teams received mail from F1 Technical Director Tim Goss. The former McLaren engineer sent out two technical directives that have existed for a long time, but have to be modified again and again because teams keep finding new ways to outsmart the regulations.

The TD018 deals with the flexibility of fairing parts on three sides. It comes into force in Singapore. TD039 defines the rules for the floor panel fastenings and the aerodynamically generated rocking of the cars. The adjusted seven-page interpretation of TD039 generally applied as of the date of mailing. The stricter regulations contained therein for the front part of the guard rail will only come into force from the race in Singapore.

In an effort to minimize car bottoming for safety reasons and to protect drivers, a measurement was introduced in Spa last year that measures the vertical movements of the car and the impact as it hits the road. Anyone who exceeds a certain level, which is calculated using a complicated formula, has to make improvements. Roughly speaking, the limit is 8 g.
The guardrail under the car proved to be an inadequate tool to prevent too much contact with the ground. Although it is only allowed to wear a maximum of one millimeter in certain places during the race, the teams quickly found tricks to protect the plank even when it hits the ground.

The FIA ​​is trying to put a stop to floor tricks. For example, with an insulating material between the chassis and the base plate that softens the shocks. Or fastening screws that protrude slightly and disappear into the plank when they come into contact with the road, thus also having a dampening effect. The TD039 put an end to that. A year has now passed and the teams have already discovered new loopholes. The newly added paragraph 1.3 is now intended to fill this in as well.

The text reads in official English: "We have noticed design details in the designated holes in the floor skid area that are designed to maximize the allowable stiffness in these areas. While these designs may meet the deflection requirements, we would like the teams to do so Remember that designs must still conform to the dimensional constraints of the corresponding trim parts, which state that there must be a continuous surface on the reference plane. Designs must not use breaks in this surface to allow for differences in vertical stiffness at these break points"

The FIA ​​specifies in four points what it considers to be illegal in the future: gaps, cuts or butt joints in the relevant part of the reference plane, systematic damage, cracks or breaks on the surface of the reference plane near the holes intended for the skids, highly flexible materials on the plank or folded surfaces and connections.

Who thwarted the rules?
Most teams appear relaxed and claim that they don't need to adapt their cars. In fact, at Monza there was a rush to the FIA ​​measuring platform to find out whether you were over the limit or not. Haas reported that the rear wing needs to be slightly improved (in response to TD018). At Williams the focus is on the floor.

Wolff mentioned that Aston Martin had already taken a step back & it will now be interesting to see who still needs to improve. And how that affects the lap times in Singapore.
There were rumors that Mercedes would be affected by the rear wing and Red Bull by the floor. Which of course is not confirmed.

Christian Horner went on the offensive in Monza: "There's nothing that concerns us. We discovered a few rubber noses on other cars and are now waiting for them to disappear."
An engineer estimates the effect of the wing TD to be greater than the restrictions on the floor: "If you have to make corrections to the floor and as a result leave a little more ground clearance, in the worst case scenario you will lose downforce. If the front wing is twisted around the attachment point on the nose. Then the entire aerodynamics were designed accordingly. If you have to take a step back, you not only risk a loss of downforce but also balance problems."

[ConsiderAndGo]

Won’t make a blind bit of difference.

[Risil]

I've attempted to edit the title to make it a bit clearer for numpties like me (let me know if I've got it wrong)

[ARTGP]

interesting. 

[Organic]

I've attempted to edit the title to make it a bit clearer for numpties like me (let me know if I've got it wrong)

Thank you. The title is more clear now and it is accurate

[Clatter]

Won’t make a blind bit of difference.

 

It seemed to make a difference last year, at least to Ferrari. Which teams are they targeting with these changes?

[ConsiderAndGo]

It seemed to make a difference last year, at least to Ferrari. Which teams are they targeting with these changes?

Was that not a profoundly bigger change than the small tweak they’re making here?

[YorkF1Fan]

Will be interesting to see if any teams seriously drop off over the next few races? Wonder if one year the FIA will make the rules tough enough at the start of the season that we don't need these TDs every few months!

[flyboym3]

These hidden mechanisms they speak of seem clearly illegal and im surprised they need a TD to stop it rather than punish the offending teams.

https://www.autospor...pdown/10518570/

[Rumblestrip]

These hidden mechanisms they speak of seem clearly illegal and im surprised they need a TD to stop it rather than punish the offending teams.

https://www.autospor...pdown/10518570/

 

I assume that most, if not all, teams have something that is legally dubious (we've all seen the floppy front wings for a start). The FIA can't punish them all, that'd be a bad look for F1.

[Clatter]

Was that not a profoundly bigger change than the small tweak they’re making here?

 

I really don't know, but where aero is concerned a small change can have big consequences.

[Clatter]

I assume that most, if not all, teams have something that is legally dubious (we've all seen the floppy front wings for a start). The FIA can't punish them all, that'd be a bad look for F1.

 

Would it look any worse than much of the other things F1 has done recently to make itself look silly?

[EvilPhil II]

What if its a midfield runner that will end up at the back.. acting under pressure and desperate 

[Clatter]

What if its a midfield runner that will end up at the back.. acting under pressure and desperate 

 

That's basically anyone bar Red Bull.

[EvilPhil II]

One that looks like the F1 show car from 2021

[KWSN - DSM]

I assume that most, if not all, teams have something that is legally dubious (we've all seen the floppy front wings for a start). The FIA can't punish them all, that'd be a bad look for F1.

 

I think it would be a good look - We do not care if all you are punished, you broke the rules now you get penalized.

[FirstnameLastname]

Hopefully this helps Redbull open an even bigger gap at the front

[flatlandsman]

Do others just read this and say "yawn"?

 

Surely it cant be this difficult to remedy cheating!

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Hopefully this helps Redbull open an even bigger gap at the front

There is only one team with a very big history of using flexible (carbon fibre) aero and pushing it to the extremes....

[Rumblestrip]

There is only one team with a very big history of using flexible (carbon fibre) aero and pushing it to the extremes....

 

 

Part of the FIA statement:

 

“There has been a draft TD on the subject of bodywork flexibility issued in response to observations across several cars, and ensures that the FIA and teams all have a common understanding of the way we should interpret the regulations.”

[thefinalapex]

There is only one team with a very big history of using flexible (carbon fibre) aero and pushing it to the extremes....

 

Mercedes? that FW of them is bending quite much a few seasons already.

[Pingu Pi]

Another year, another TD. This is the F1 game however for us to start pointing fingers at individual teams when all are 'guilty' of looking for advantages whilst simultaneously observing others so they can report them to save their own R&D budget seems a bit silly of us as fans.

 

I like the loophole game, it's part of the fun for us and especially for the engineers which is important.

 

I just wish the FIA would act quicker... they should be skilled and competent enough to see these early on and it should be absolutely okay to go... "Don't put that on the car next race." If a team gets caught, they should have a legal back up. Simple.

Edited by Pingu Pi, 12 September 2023 - 08:36.

[FirstnameLastname]

Refund/credit in the cost cap for stuff that’s retrospectively banned/‘clarified’ and you’ve spunked a chunk of budget on?

[Sterzo]

Another year, another TD. This is the F1 game however for us to start pointing fingers at individual teams when all are 'guilty' of looking for advantages whilst simultaneously observing others so they can report them to save their own R&D budget seems a bit silly of us as fans.

 

I like the loophole game, it's part of the fun for us and especially for the engineers which is important.

 

I just wish the FIA would act quicker... they should be skilled and competent enough to see these early on and it should be absolutely okay to go... "Don't put that on the car next race." If a team gets caught, they should have a legal back up. Simple.

I hope your reasoning doesn't extend to law enforcement outside F1. Blame the judges for crime and admire the offenders.

[Pingu Pi]

I hope your reasoning doesn't extend to law enforcement outside F1. Blame the judges for crime and admire the offenders.

This seems like a strange personally aimed post   

Naturally not, this is motorsport and a series that has 'loopholes' in the DNA and by it's nature through regulations of 'these are your boxes, keep to them, do what you want in them but not outside of these boxes'. Otherwise we'd have spec cars. 

 

Whilst not exactly like for like it's a bit like Athletics, they're all technically doping but once something goes on the ban list it's a no go. It's up to World Anti-doping Agency (WADA) to keep track of this and instil the regulations. Obviously a lot stricter but again F1 leans into the loopholes and gives allowance as it's also lauded as an engineering series. Where as athletics is not lauded as such when it comes to developing performance enhancing elements. 

Edited by Pingu Pi, 12 September 2023 - 10:56.

[Primo]

Strange with in season changes under a cost cap rule. What if someone is on the absolute limit on the budget and suddenly find their car illegal? 

[Clatter]

Strange with in season changes under a cost cap rule. What if someone is on the absolute limit on the budget and suddenly find their car illegal? 

 

If they are using a loophole they know the risks.

[CSF]

Mercedes? that FW of them is bending quite much a few seasons already.

 

Mercedes would never push the limits of anything.

[Primo]

If they are using a loophole they know the risks.

Finding loopholes is their job. 

[Clatter]

Finding loopholes is their job. 

 

And they all do so fully knowing that a loophole can be closed at any time.

[RedRabbit]

Let's be honest, if this affects McLaren or Aston Martin, it would be a crying shame, as they're actually the two teams that have come closest to challenging Red Bull and KNOW why.

Mercedes and Ferrari are having a clueless season, and it's showing that their technical leadership is lacking.

[catent]

Let's be honest, if this affects McLaren or Aston Martin, it would be a crying shame, as they're actually the two teams that have come closest to challenging Red Bull and KNOW why.

Mercedes and Ferrari are having a clueless season, and it's showing that their technical leadership is lacking.

Those latter two teams having a “clueless season” are currently #2 & #3 in the WCC, respectively, ahead of both of the “two teams that have come closest to challenging Red Bull”. I’ll let someone else figure that one out.

Ferrari’s alleged flexi-plank solution last season was cheating (in your mind), nothing further. No cries as to what a shame it was we were deprived of quality competition during the 2022 season (and potentially beyond). Instead, it was just a matter-of-fact, 'cheating is cheating, tough sh*t. In this case - now that Aston & McLaren are potentially involved - should either (or both) team(s) be caught cheating, it’s a "crying shame". I’ll let someone else figure that one out, too.

Edited by catent, 12 September 2023 - 20:41.

[YamahaV10]

Won’t make a blind bit of difference.

 

If last time was anything to go by, this will make a difference. It will make Red Bull faster.

[pdac]

If last time was anything to go by, this will make a difference. It will make Red Bull faster.

 

Perhaps it's to ensure beyond any reasonable doubt that Red Bull do win every race this season. It'll put F1 at the top of the sporting headlines if they do.

[Pingu Pi]

Perhaps it's to ensure beyond any reasonable doubt that Red Bull do win every race this season. It'll put F1 at the top of the sporting headlines if they do.

 

Please stop trying to set fire to the forums!    I need this place at the weekend

Edited by Pingu Pi, 12 September 2023 - 20:32.

[krea]

Those latter two teams having a “clueless season” are currently #2 & #3 in the WCC, respectively, ahead of both of the “two teams that have come closest to challenging Red Bull”. I’ll let someone else figure that one out.

Ferrari’s alleged flexi-plank solution last season was cheating (in your mind), nothing further. No cries as to what a shame it was we were deprived of quality competition during the 2022 season (and potentially beyond). Instead, it was just a matter-of-fact, 'cheating is cheating, tough sh*t. In this case - now that Aston & McLaren are potentially involved - should either (or both) team(s) be caught cheating, it’s a "crying shame". I’ll let someone else figure that one out, too.

That one team is wasting a seat with Stroll though.

[Carsey]

Let's be honest, if this affects McLaren or Aston Martin, it would be a crying shame, as they're actually the two teams that have come closest to challenging Red Bull and KNOW why.

Mercedes and Ferrari are having a clueless season, and it's showing that their technical leadership is lacking.

Would they really know why though? If they have implemented a previous loophole that allowed them to gain performance to challenge RB then unless RB is also affected by the TEchnical Directive revisions- it would indicate that they don’t know what RB are doing.

McLaren and AMR hit by the changes - RB affected aswell = possibly found out what RB were up to.

McLaren and AMR hit by the changes - RB remain unaffected - nobody still knows what the RB secret sauce is

[dia6olo]

According to https://formu1a.uno/ Red Bull and Mercedes are the most talked about teams but many teams will have to make changes...

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Would they really know why though? If they have implemented a previous loophole that allowed them to gain performance to challenge RB then unless RB is also affected by the TEchnical Directive revisions- it would indicate that they don’t know what RB are doing.

McLaren and AMR hit by the changes - RB affected aswell = possibly found out what RB were up to.

McLaren and AMR hit by the changes - RB remain unaffected - nobody still knows what the RB secret sauce is

I do not think there is any one thing on the RB that is making it so good... its just a very good car, made up of everything working in haramony!

[Carsey]

I do not think there is any one thing on the RB that is making it so good... its just a very good car, made up of everything working in haramony!

Exactly that. It’s just working. We have seen pics of the underside of the floor on the RB’s and everyone else’s floor looks like a child’s attempt vs the floor of RB.

I remember a year ago when TD039 came out and teams and people were singing from the rooftops that RB would be the biggest hit - look how that one turned out.

Similar with the shouts about the porpoising which led to a increase in floor throat height etc.

[AlexPrime]

According to https://formu1a.uno/ Red Bull and Mercedes are the most talked about teams but many teams will have to make changes...

It would be hilarious if it kills Merc, but not RBR. Like last year flexi floor clampdown was intented to kill RB, slayed Ferrari instead.

[Clrnc]

Hope this affects RB, but so far most of the changes seem to benefit them since 2020 as their car are always legal and have no such tricks.

[dia6olo]

Hope this affects RB, but so far most of the changes seem to benefit them since 2020 as their car are always legal and have no such tricks.

I don't think anyone gains that kind of advantage without a trick or two. Be they legal or not the RB most definitely has tricks.

The truth is that we will more often than not never know the legality of many "tricks", on the surface it would seem that some teams are simply better at utilising "tricks" be they legal or not, however, I feel there's a big caveat with that and it's that some teams also have more political power than others.

I also feel that while a lot like to think that the world of sport is all fair and above board, it is not, it never has been and it never will be, where there is money there is corruption and sport is no exception.

Reality is that there are likely vastly more illegal "tricks" in all sports that never see the light of day than those that do, and that most of those that never see the light of day will be from the big players who have more money and political clout.

Edited by dia6olo, 14 September 2023 - 08:38.

[Alexis*27]

Hope this affects RB, but so far most of the changes seem to benefit them since 2020 as their car are always legal and have no such tricks.

 

? It's full of tricks.

 

"Tricks" and legality aren't actually connected.

[mclara]

Hopefully this helps Redbull open an even bigger gap at the front

Waiting for someone to blame Toto

[AncientLurker]

I assume that most, if not all, teams have something that is legally dubious (we've all seen the floppy front wings for a start). The FIA can't punish them all, that'd be a bad look for F1.

I am 100% ok with the FIA excluding most/all cars after a race to show them they actually mean business and are not willing to turn a blind eye anymore. Imagine someone like Haas getting a 1/2 because they were the only legally compliant cars.  FIA used to have no problem excluding cars and banning teams for tech infringements, now it is a farce.

[Goron3]

I'm kind of intrigued as to how this might impact Aston Martin.

 

They seemed to have been pulled back a few months ago as part of the FIA's initial look into what the teams were doing, however my understanding is that this weekend they have a significant FW update which will bring them back to where they were.

 

If that's the case, and others lose out this weekend, surely they may jump back forward.

[ARTGP]

Waiting for someone to blame Toto

 

No I don't think you can blame Toto for this one.  I actually think Mercedes is one of the teams targeted by the directive. RB's technical director said as much, and Mercedes have not been saying much to the press about this directive. Compare that to all of the noise Mercedes made in 2021 and 2022 about flexible components. They are curiously quiet now...You don't even have to be a cynic to think they are involved. 

Edited by ARTGP, 13 September 2023 - 13:57.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

No I don't think you can blame Toto for this one. I actually think Mercedes is one of the teams targeted by the directive. RB's technical director said as much, and Mercedes have not been saying much to the press about this directive. Compare that to all of the noise Mercedes made in 2021 and 2022 about flexible components. They are curiously quiet now...You don't even have to be a cynic to think they are involved.

Or they just don’t understand what is going on with the flexing…

[flyboym3]

Its possible that the ex rbr engineers at mclaren and Aston have gone to the fia and asked for the classic rule clarifications that 'if we did is that ok' so rather than spending the money to mimic rbr on sth shady just get it banned instead.

And if they are not doing that then they are missing a trick and they should start now.