298 replies to this topic

[balage06]

It's hard to say really, I'd also say that Antonelli's year has been somewhat underwhelming considering the hype around him, but on the other hand, one could argue that he still won both championships fairly easily. He had a mechanical DNF in Imola, lost the lead at the Hungaroring due to a gearbox issue and lost a win in Monza as well, so in theory he still coud have scored even ~40-50 points more already. Meanwhile, Beganovic did not even win a single race in his first year in FRegional, so there is a contrast between their performances as rookies.

[JvsKVB77]

I'm talking about the top level drivers, the potential generational talents like Antonelli. They adapt ultra fast, and the proof is that they never do more than one season in the same series. My Antonelli/Beganovic example in FR Middle East is good. It took Antonelli three races to outqualify and to outrace the 2022 FRECA champion for the first time. How is that not relevant? Beganovic had more than 50 races with that FRECA car when he was Antonelli's teammate that weekend. Experience is important or not for you? Now I'm confused...

Feels sad for Hamilton. 

[JvsKVB77]

It's hard to say really, I'd also say that Antonelli's year has been somewhat underwhelming considering the hype around him, but on the other hand, one could argue that he still won both championships fairly easily. He had a mechanical DNF in Imola, lost the lead at the Hungaroring due to a gearbox issue and lost a win in Monza as well, so in theory he still coud have scored even ~40-50 points more already. Meanwhile, Beganovic did not even win a single race in his first year in FRegional, so there is a contrast between their performances as rookies.

It was a good season, just in F4 is slightly easier to dominant with Prema, when in FRECA they not best team, just one of the best. And if you take the number of laps completed in each position during the season, and give each driver the percentage of points that are due for that position according to the standard FIA system (25,18,15...), what percentage of the laps in the season he spent on it and add up the result, then this is the picture of the season you will get for the last three years. The pilots who spent their first full season in the series this year are highlighted in green. Those. Antonelli's result is better than even the results of experienced pilots in previous years.

Edited by JvsKVB77, 17 October 2023 - 05:28.

[Beri]

Seeing this, it boggles me that no F1 team has picked up neither Stenshorne or Giusti. With Antonelli, Tramnitz and Camara all locked in place by F1 teams, the two earlier mentioned drivers should certainly be on anyones radar when one also considers their earlier track record. Haverkort is already 19 years of age and will be 20 at seasons end. So he is out of the question.

[JvsKVB77]

Seeing this, it boggles me that no F1 team has picked up neither Stenshorne or Giusti. With Antonelli, Tramnitz and Camara all locked in place by F1 teams, the two earlier mentioned drivers should certainly be on anyones radar when one also considers their earlier track record. Haverkort is already 19 years of age and will be 20 at seasons end. So he is out of the question.

Stenshorne in safe hands of Todt jr. 

[Beri]

For such a talented guy, its strange to see he hasnt got an English Wiki page already 

[F1Frog]

Which drivers looked like future champions in their junior career and maybe first few seasons, but never realised their potential. I am not talking about people like Stirling Moss who were good enough to be champion but just never were, but drivers who never even came close?

[Beri]

Herbert, Magnussen Sr., Fisichella and Trulli spring to mind.

[noikeee]

Sato, Vandoorne, Hulkenberg, Liuzzi, Kovalainen

[PlatenGlass]

Modena, Alesi, Frenzten, Heidfeld, Montoya.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 17 October 2023 - 13:22.

[Collombin]

Dave Walker, the anti-Lauda.

[BerniesDad]

Which drivers looked like future champions in their junior career and maybe first few seasons, but never realised their potential. 

 

Amon, Berger,  Alesi, Kubica.

Martin Brundle? He came 2nd to Ayrton Senna in almost every race of one season in F3. 

Jules Bianchi? Had a seat waiting for him at Ferrari.

[Collombin]

Martin Brundle? He came 2nd to Ayrton Senna in almost every race of one season in F3

Brundle actually led the championship going into the last round, despite Senna winning the first 9 races or thereabouts.

[eab]

Brundle actually led the championship going into the last round, despite Senna winning the first 9 races or thereabouts.

Another prime example of the superiority of best-score-systems vs the absurdity of counting every score that way. If anyhting, effectively dropping just the two worst results out of 19 was way too little and Senna's title should've been done and dusted after the penultimate race already.

 

And to go out with a bang: With the 25-18--1 system that is used today, both in F1 and in almost all junior series, Brundle would've actually been the one that clinched the title with those results before the season finale (, even including the 11 Fastest Lap points for Senna versus the 5 of Brundle).

[TheFish]

Drives like today make me doubt Norris’ credentials. I can’t see guys like Verstappen or Hamilton being so weak when trying to win their first race.

He’s clearly very talented and very quick, but in the key moments he always seems to come up short.

[PlatenGlass]

I think it was largely a tyre thing.

[DW46]

Very Fisichellaesque today.

[PayasYouRace]

Drives like today make me doubt Norris’ credentials. I can’t see guys like Verstappen or Hamilton being so weak when trying to win their first race.

He’s clearly very talented and very quick, but in the key moments he always seems to come up short.

If he defended any harder he’d have been in New Mexico at one point.

[TheFish]

If he defended any harder he’d have been in New Mexico at one point.

I’m talking about the one for the lead, not the one for P2 when he couldn’t have opened the door any wider if he tried.

[AlexPrime]

I think Lando was smart not to waste his tyres in hopeless defense. would have been 4th if he did that.

[PayasYouRace]

I’m talking about the one for the lead, not the one for P2 when he couldn’t have opened the door any wider if he tried.

He’s a smart driver. Some people just like to complain about him.

[TheFish]

When he let Max through, it wasn’t clear that he didn’t have the pace to win. He spent the next few laps trying hard to stay within DRS. Claiming it was smart is nonsense. It was extremely weak and there is no way Max would have done the same in his position. Max is the current benchmark, and no-one with any desire of being the one to dethrone him should wave him through so easily.

[RacingSmoke]

Lando will never be as good as Max or Lewis, I think that much is clear. However I can see him winning one or two titles.

[Calum]

What is ‘smart’ about not going for the win when there’s a rare half chance?

There’s not a bigger picture in terms of championship or prizes for Norris. (Well, maybe other than playing nice with the Bulls in case there is a contract offer to come! )

[George Costanza]

Very Fisichellaesque today.

Is that an insult to Giancarlo?

[George Costanza]

Lando will never be as good as Max or Lewis, I think that much is clear. However I can see him winning one or two titles.

It's hard enough to win one let alone two. Just ask Jacques and Nigel.

Edited by George Costanza, 23 October 2023 - 00:11.

[ARTGP]

When he let Max through, it wasn’t clear that he didn’t have the pace to win. He spent the next few laps trying hard to stay within DRS. Claiming it was smart is nonsense. It was extremely weak and there is no way Max would have done the same in his position. Max is the current benchmark, and no-one with any desire of being the one to dethrone him should wave him through so easily.

 

Way off the mark unfortunately. 

 

Verstappen was on medium tires. Norris was on Hard tires. Verstappen was 3-4 tenths faster per lap at that point because he had to be because he needed 1 more stop. Norris was on a 1 stopper to his knowledge and Verstappen on 2 stopper.  Norris had to save his hard tires because he was going to the end.  He didn't make that pass on Verstappen too hard (and Verstappen came from a ways back anyway). Norris then let Verstappen pull him with him, taking advantage of DRS for a good 5-6 laps after. Very clever actually. 

 

Unfortunately Mclaren put him on a 1 stopper in the first place which turned out to be a bad strategy and they had to bail out of it after it was already too late. 

 

If Norris had known he was on a 2 stopper like Verstappen, it would have been a different ball game. 

Edited by ARTGP, 23 October 2023 - 00:26.

[Gravelngrass]

I thought Leclerc would be WDC when he started at Sauber. Now, not so much.

Sainz I never thought would become one when he was beaten by Verstappen at TR. Now, after seeing him against Lec, I think with the right conditions he could be.

I was undecided by Norris, but when I see him against Piastri, I have doubts.

When I saw Rus replacing Bot that time, and before when driving for Williams, I thought he was wdc material. Now seeing him without an answer to Ham, I think maybe not.

But truly, if any of the aforementioned guys land a seat in a dominating car without an alien next to them, they could win it…

[eab]

Way off the mark unfortunately. 

 

Verstappen was on medium tires. Norris was on Hard tires. Verstappen was 3-4 tenths faster per lap at that point because he had to be because he needed 1 more stop. Norris was on a 1 stopper to his knowledge and Verstappen on 2 stopper.  Norris had to save his hard tires because he was going to the end.  He didn't make that pass on Verstappen too hard (and Verstappen came from a ways back anyway). Norris then let Verstappen pull him with him, taking advantage of DRS for a good 5-6 laps after. Very clever actually. 

 

Unfortunately Mclaren put him on a 1 stopper in the first place which turned out to be a bad strategy and they had to bail out of it after it was already too late. 

 

If Norris had known he was on a 2 stopper like Verstappen, it would have been a different ball game. 

Where did you get this idea that McLaren were on a 1 stopper? I'm curious.

 

In pretty much every single interview during the weekend Norris and Piastri were talking about tyre deg going to be a problem.

Also, if you're planning to stop just once you'll probably want to offset, like Merc initially tried, instead of covering a 2 stopper, which is exactly what McLaren actually did.

Then we got the post-race interviews, in which Norris reiterated what he'd been saying all weekend, that they knew that tyre deg was going to be difficult and so it was (after 10 laps in each stint). Stella also said that they pushed hard in order to win, and hinted that they probably paid the price for it in terms of lap time consistency.

 

Now why would you do all that if you were going to stop just once?

[ARTGP]

Now why would you do all that if you were going to stop just once?

 

ask that to Mclaren and Mercedes, who both were feeling out the 1 stop with their drivers, and then bailed.  I picked this up from the radio conversations. Lando had been asked about plans with various alphabetical codes and you could tell the different plans were 1 stop and 2 stop, and that they made a late decision to go to two stop because Lando was going too slow on the first set of hards. 

Edited by ARTGP, 23 October 2023 - 06:25.

[DW46]

Is that an insult to Giancarlo?

Never! It’s a comment on Norris whilst leading.

Edited by DW46, 23 October 2023 - 07:28.

[Fraser1994]

Looks like Sainz is going to outscore Leclerc for the 2nd time in 3 seasons.

After 2 years beating Norris.

Impressive.

[eab]

ask that to Mclaren and Mercedes, who both were feeling out the 1 stop with their drivers, and then bailed.  I picked this up from the radio conversations. Lando had been asked about plans with various alphabetical codes and you could tell the different plans were 1 stop and 2 stop, and that they made a late decision to go to two stop because Lando was going too slow on the first set of hards. 

Merc are irrelevant in this.

 

And McLaren pitting Norris in response to RBR's stop just doesn't make sense if the plan was to stop just once. Leave Norris in front, in clean air to boot, and let RBR try and make all that ground up.

[prty]

Button, Alonso, Raikkonen, Massa... Weren't we talking about future champions?

Well, Massa can still be champion

[jjcale]

Norris' engineer is also weak (at least that is how he comes across in radio snippets played) .... and so is his team boss who gives the impression of being happy to be there rather than being desperate to win. 

 

Edit - so though Norris has issues regarding his "mentality" as Ron Dennis used to put it ...I dont think his team is going to do anything to toughen him up. 

 

Maybe going to Redbull might be a good thing for him in terms of his development .....

Edited by jjcale, 23 October 2023 - 08:15.

[DW46]

Norris' engineer is also weak (at least that is how he comes across in radio snippets played) .... and so is his team boss who gives the impression of being happy to be there rather than being desperate to win.

Edit - so though Norris has issues regarding his "mentality" as Ron Dennis used to put it ...I dont think his team is going to do anything to toughen him up.

Maybe going to Redbull might be a good thing for him in terms of his development .....

He’ll get eaten alive.

[1player]

Norris' engineer is also weak (at least that is how he comes across in radio snippets played) .... and so is his team boss who gives the impression of being happy to be there rather than being desperate to win.

Great bait, mate.

Especially after the team boss probably sold his soul to Satan to turn a backmarker car to one challenging Max for the win, in half a season. He's just happy to be there alright.

[MikeTekRacing]

Norris ended up chased by Sainz. They clearly did not have the pace to fight Max.

[Ali623]

Looks like Sainz is going to outscore Leclerc for the 2nd time in 3 seasons.

After 2 years beating Norris.

Impressive.

 

Sainz will probably go down as a driver who is looked back on as underrated after retirement. Especially if Leclerc and/or Norris go on to be WDCs.

 

He seems to be a driver that really struggles when a car isn't working for him, see the first half of 2022 where he looked out of his depth against Leclerc. But otherwise he's capable of challenging most on the grid.

 

Doubt he ever wins a championship unless he gets a Button/Brawn situation where he's in the right team at the right time though.

[Astandahl]

Sainz will probably go down as a driver who is looked back on as underrated after retirement. Especially if Leclerc and/or Norris go on to be WDCs.

 

He seems to be a driver that really struggles when a car isn't working for him, see the first half of 2022 where he looked out of his depth against Leclerc. But otherwise he's capable of challenging most on the grid.

 

Doubt he ever wins a championship unless he gets a Button/Brawn situation where he's in the right team at the right time though.

It's also easier when the other driver always get ****ed by the Team though. Outside of the DSQ situation Leclerc was outperforming Sainz in the race but finished 8s behind due to strategy.

Same happened in Silverstone, Hungary and Monaco last year. At this point, i'm starting to lose count.

Edited by Astandahl, 23 October 2023 - 11:21.

[JimmyClark]

Looks like Sainz is going to outscore Leclerc for the 2nd time in 3 seasons.

After 2 years beating Norris.

Impressive.

 

From what I can work out, this is Carlos Sainz vs his teammates:

 

Verstappen: 23 Races / CS 22pts / MV 62pts

Kvyat: 31 Races / CS 90pts / DK 8pts

Gasly: 2 Races / CS 0pts / PG 0pts

Hulkenberg: 25 Races / CS 59pts / NH 80pts

Norris: 38 Races / CS 201pts / LN 146pts

Leclerc: 61 Races / CS 581.5pts / CL 618pts

 

Overall this is 953.5pts for Carlos and 914pts for his teammates, which when you look at the general level he's raced against, that's a very good return. 

 

Definitely I'd put him at Button or Rosberg level - i.e. very capable of winning a championship when the circumstances are right, and being able to make life uncomfortable for the Tier 1 super-drivers. 

[Astandahl]

From what I can work out, this is Carlos Sainz vs his teammates:

 

Verstappen: 23 Races / CS 22pts / MV 62pts

Kvyat: 31 Races / CS 90pts / DK 8pts

Gasly: 2 Races / CS 0pts / PG 0pts

Hulkenberg: 25 Races / CS 59pts / NH 80pts

Norris: 38 Races / CS 201pts / LN 146pts

Leclerc: 61 Races / CS 581.5pts / CL 618pts

 

Overall this is 953.5pts for Carlos and 914pts for his teammates, which when you look at the general level he's raced against, that's a very good return. 

 

Definitely I'd put him at Button or Rosberg level - i.e. very capable of winning a championship when the circumstances are right, and being able to make life uncomfortable for the Tier 1 super-drivers. 

For example?

 

Also Button won a WDC against Barrichello, Rosberg against Hamilton.

Edited by Astandahl, 23 October 2023 - 11:42.

[JimmyClark]

For example?

 

Also Button won a WDC against Barrichello, Rosberg against Hamilton.

 

I'm not sure what you're questioning? 

[Astandahl]

I'm not sure what you're questioning? 

Which are the circumstances that can make Sainz win a world championship.

[JimmyClark]

Which are the circumstances that can make Sainz win a world championship.

 

Well... the myriad of ways things can go right for a driver - e.g. finding himself in a top car as the faster driver (per Button), or finding himself in a top car and being fast enough to make the most of misfortune for his teammate (Rosberg). My point is that I agree he is underrated, and I think he would make the most of a championship opportunity, whereas the likes of Bottas or Perez would not in their times in top cars if things went their way. 

[Astandahl]

Well... the myriad of ways things can go right for a driver - e.g. finding himself in a top car as the faster driver (per Button), or finding himself in a top car and being fast enough to make the most of misfortune for his teammate (Rosberg). My point is that I agree he is underrated, and I think he would make the most of a championship opportunity, whereas the likes of Bottas or Perez would not in their times in top cars if things went their way. 

Oh, Sainz natural speed is higher than both (especially Perez).

 

Still, Ferrari is not a normal team. Yesterday's race just the last example

Edited by Astandahl, 23 October 2023 - 12:17.

[Amin]

Watching live timing alongside the race, it seemed that the few laps prior to the P1 overtake Norris's laps were all over the place. As soon as Norris fell back to P2, his pace was much faster and more consistent. It looked very much like Norris couldn't mentally handle the pressure of Max following him lap after lap and that his pace suffered because of it. 

[1player]

Watching live timing alongside the race, it seemed that the few laps prior to the P1 overtake Norris's laps were all over the place. As soon as Norris fell back to P2, his pace was much faster and more consistent. It looked very much like Norris couldn't mentally handle the pressure of Max following him lap after lap and that his pace suffered because of it. 

While I doubt that's the case, during the race I considered that having Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton chasing you for the win, a combined total of 10 WDC, is probably the hardest challenge in all of motorsport. The final boss of F1.

 

Norris being good mates with Verstappen probably helps. He must've experienced Max chasing him enough times in sim racing to get desensitised.

Edited by 1player, 23 October 2023 - 15:26.

[Button4life]

Watching live timing alongside the race, it seemed that the few laps prior to the P1 overtake Norris's laps were all over the place. As soon as Norris fell back to P2, his pace was much faster and more consistent. It looked very much like Norris couldn't mentally handle the pressure of Max following him lap after lap and that his pace suffered because of it. 

His pace was all over the place because he locked-up his front left tire. It took him a few laps to recover the tyres. Before the lock-up he was consistently a few tenths slower than Max.