13 replies to this topic

[brands77]

Some nice photos of 1950s riders from Julian Ryder.

https://superbikepla...s-hard-as-nails

[Michael Ferner]

"Douche bag" Ernst Degner?? C'mon. Perhaps the author would have loved to live behind the Berlin prison wall...

 

Degner was smart enough to leave a team hamstrung by management decisions taken for the five-year plan in 1958, before any of them knew how to even spell H-O-N-D-A.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 24 September 2023 - 11:34.

[Michael Ferner]

Not such good quality, but here's a few pics of riders, some perhaps not as well known:
 


Starting with Arthur Wheeler



Tommy Wood



Svend Aage Sørensen


 
Chris Tattersall
 


Les Graham



Len Parry



Guy Newman


 
Joe Glazebrook

Edited by Michael Ferner, 24 September 2023 - 11:31.

[brands77]

Whatever, you think about Degner (before my time). The injuries he suffered at the 1963 Japanese GP were horrific and to come back after that and win again showed immense bravery and determination.

[LittleChris]

Think Mat Oxleys "Stealing Speed" is a good read about Degner

[opplock]

I see that a small bearded journalist and world champion sidecar passenger is described as "infamous". In the world of extreme left politics was that a bigger insult than "douche bag"? 

[StanN]

Great to see a photo of Guy Newman, Michael.

 

My late brother-in-law grew up and lived near Guy in Hampshire and knew him well. Guy did some work for him on his race bikes in the early 60s and also worked on the crankshaft of my first race bike, a 125 Moto Rumi, in 63/64.

 

I remember seeing an Excelsior 'Mechanical Marvel' at one of the Earls Court motorcyle show in that period that Guy had restored.

[Michael Ferner]

Good to see that the photos are appreciated, I have dozens more, and can post them in batches over time. 

[barrykm]

Whatever, you think about Degner (before my time). The injuries he suffered at the 1963 Japanese GP were horrific and to come back after that and win again showed immense bravery and determination.

 

What was it about Degner, apart from his defection with MZ technology, that earned him  the appelation of 'douchebag'?

[Michael Ferner]

Nothing. Never saw anyone call him anything disparaging before. Maybe this author has a childhood trauma, like not getting his autograph when he dearly wanted to. 

[LittleChris]

Presumably the captions were the work of the Osceola brothers, whoever they may be, rather than Jules Ryder. Possibly American as douche bag is very much an Americanism

[tonyed]

The defection, understandable, but the way he did it to the determent of MZ and the industrial espionage stealing Kaadens hard work. I think the description is understandable. Suzuki were the benefactors of knowledge robbed from MZ. It doesn't say much for them either! 

[brands77]

I think the captions are by Superbikeplanet themselves rather than Julian Ryder, so they are probably by Dean Adams, who is the owner (I think) and main author of the site and yes it is an American site.

Edited by brands77, 04 October 2023 - 13:52.

[Michael Ferner]

The defection, understandable, but the way he did it to the determent of MZ and the industrial espionage stealing Kaadens hard work. I think the description is understandable. Suzuki were the benefactors of knowledge robbed from MZ. It doesn't say much for them either! 

 

I don't know, but I'd think that copying and knowledge transfer is endemic to motor racing; I wouldn't call it "stealing". The lines are perhaps blurred, but it's not like Degner took file cabinets full of MZ drawings with him, he just had the practical knowledge that is sought by head hunters in every way of business life. Not much different to, say, Isao Morishita taking Suzuki knowledge to Bridgestone, or Walter Moore transfering from Norton to NSU in the thirties. It's just that neither Japan nor England believed in building prison walls to prevent that knowledge transfer. Suddenly it's international espionage when the Iron Curtain is involved, and Degner becomes a hero on one side of the fence, and a traitor on the other. I think he's neither, just a brave man for taking the risks he took to escape. And yes, some of those who helped him from this side of the fence didn't do it for the sake of Humanism, that's not an unfair assessment. Doesn't make it "stealing" or "robbery", though.

 

Speaking of "Kaaden's hard work", it seems dear old Walter wasn't above "stealing", either, as I read that it was actually a guy called Daniel Zimmermann who did all the MZ engineering, and maybe Kaaden was just the apparatschik taking all the glory. Can't vouch for the accuracy of that account, but things aren't always what they are made out to look like. I'd be very careful casting blame and using strong words when the details are not that clear.